Cheap sailboaters

Spent a couple nights in the Annapolis mooring field this week. $35/night for up to a 55' max. I've always found that reasonable.

Most of the moorings were empty around me when I went to bed. In the morning I see a late arrival had picked up a nearby mooring. A few minutes later they leave, well before the harbormaster staff arrives. Skipped out on the bill I think. Damned sailboaters.

..except it was a Fleming.

danderer said:

..except it was a Fleming.

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That's how he pays for the Fleming.

I am not defending the Fleming owner, however.

If I get into a place after dark and there is no staff there to take my money, and I am planning on leaving quite a bit earlier than when the staff will be there to take my money, they will need to have a VERY convenient night drop to leave the check or cash.

I'm not saying that I would make plans to arrive late and leave early to avoid paying a fee, but if that was what happened, I am not going to delay my departure for a couple of hours just to pay them the fee.

Best option is if the marina has an online pay system so I could just electronically pay for the mooring. I would do that. Now, maybe this marina does, and the Flemming either reserved a mooring ahead of time with payment, or called in before the staff left and made payment arraignments over the phone. I have done that as well.

How do you know they didn't pay with a credit card over the phone? The MF may have just said "don't worry about it". I've had that happen when we were coming in after hours. A marina slip is a little different.

As others have said, things aren't always as they appear. I'd also say the same if it was a sailboat.

Mooring balls should be free. Before I am nailed on the wall to say this, what is the cost for setup of a mooring ball, and with 35$ a night how many moorings needed to have a return on investment? Moreover you get make money by the service you may bring to the people moored and by making mooring free you attract people that would got ashore and spend money in the surrounding establishments developing local tourism business. Ok I know I am a dreamer but I saw some places where they cluttered an anchoring spot with mooring balls so you cannot anchor anymore and you have to pay the price to stay overnight... is it fair?
There may be some reason to force people to get a mooring like marine parks but most of the time it is not.

Sorry for my special point of view

L.

Guess it depends where you are. Most good mooring fields are engineered, have screw in anchors and the moorings are inspected at least annually for liability reasons. An initial investment can run up to $10k per mooring depending on many factors.

Ted

I have arrived after hours and departed early or during holidays and have paid by credit card over the phone.....not going to use any kind of drop box except at Chesapeake City free dock...the mail slot is fun and it's cheap anyway.

The marinas appreciate my effort and seem amazed at the honesty.

I imagine some places have video surveillance but don't pursue skip bozos because of the hassel.

We called for a mooring a couple years ago at Vero Beach. Later that night, I butt called the last number (the marina). The next day the marina called asking if we had tied up to the fuel dock last night. A power boat had came in after they were closed, tied up for the night and left before the opened in the morning. They wanted to know if that was us because of the after hour phone call. I mentioned that we were out in front on a mooring and they apologized. The operator said he was just tracking things down and hadn't tied everything together yet. He did say security cameras had recorded the boat name and hailing port and he figured he'd start with the after hour phone call first. Busted.!

Scott

I'm amazed! Just kidding.

Bigsfish said:

Scott

I'm amazed! Just kidding.

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Your dock is the only one I sneak on and off of....

In February I was moving a boat from the East Coast of Florida to the West Coast of Florida.

I made arrangements to stay at a marina that was attached to a waterfront restaurant. When I say Marina, I mean the restaurant had a dock that they charged an overnight fee for but it included electricity.

I called ahead and they said that they would be closed but the restaurant would be open. The plan was to eat dinner and settle up with them in the morning.

We arrived about an hour before the restaurant closed and or able to get a quick bite to eat. Due to a schedule change we wound up leaving around 6 o'clock in the morning which was well before the "marina" opened.

Around 9 AM I called the marina office and told them who I was and what we had done. The marina manager was very surprised that we even bothered to call. She thanked me for my honesty and said there would be no charge for our stay because of it.

This went along way in my book.

The point I am making is, integrity is like for virginity. Once you lose it you don't get it back.

O C Diver said:

Guess it depends where you are. Most good mooring fields are engineered, have screw in anchors and the moorings are inspected at least annually for liability reasons. An initial investment can run up to $10k per mooring depending on many factors.

Ted

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Yup. A decent mooring is not a drop and forget affair. Not only do you have to install and maintain it, maintain the necessary permits, but also maintain the liability insurance for having it.

FWIW, this thread reminded me to renew my WA State Marine Parks yearly permit. $5 per foot and allows me to use all the moorings, linear moorings, and docks with no overnight or daily charge. Normally, the nightly charge on a mooring or at a dock is $15/night. So I break even at about 14 nights a year. I normally don't state that many nights but it is certainly a convenience to not have to row to shore to pay the fee. No cash, no checks, no hassle.

Scott

You wouldn't have to sneak away, I wouldn't charge you anyway!

k9medic said:

The point I am making is, integrity is like for virginity. Once you lose it you don't get it back.

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Ohhh, that's good!

Lou_tribal said:

Mooring balls should be free. Before I am nailed on the wall to say this, what is the cost for setup of a mooring ball, and with 35$ a night how many moorings needed to have a return on investment? Moreover you get make money by the service you may bring to the people moored and by making mooring free you attract people that would got ashore and spend money in the surrounding establishments developing local tourism business. Ok I know I am a dreamer but I saw some places where they cluttered an anchoring spot with mooring balls so you cannot anchor anymore and you have to pay the price to stay overnight... is it fair?
There may be some reason to force people to get a mooring like marine parks but most of the time it is not.

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In addition to the costs which O C Diver mentioned, there are other reasons to charge for use of mooring balls. One example is to keep derelict boats and/or squatters away. If they were free, there would be costs to police the fields to keep these boats out (if that is possible).

A second reason is mooring fields are usually in very popular areas and by charging for them, the costs are somewhat of an economic allocation system to allocate the moorings to those who are willing to pay the most.

I like free too but when there are too many boats vying for limited resources and even popular anchorages are a limited resource, a for pay model is needed.

Many moorings come with a traveling Honey Bucket boat and a trash dumpster on shore.

BandB said:

As others have said, things aren't always as they appear. I'd also say the same if it was a sailboat.

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Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

Exactly the point I was going for.

Lou_tribal said:

Mooring balls should be free. Before I am nailed on the wall to say this, what is the cost for setup of a mooring ball, and with 35$ a night how many moorings needed to have a return on investment?

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FWIW, the mooring field in historic Annapolis -- much of it just off the US Naval Academy grounds -- is a very big deal. Costs them boatloads to lay out every year (helix anchors and so forth), maintain, manage, fund the harbormasters workforce, etc. The fee is quite reasonable.

The city's slips in the central harbor (aka Ego Alley) have become a bit expensive recently, but they did a major renovation last year and I suspect the higher costs now are mostly about paying for that, too.

-Chris

dhays said:

I'm not saying that I would make plans to arrive late and leave early to avoid paying a fee, but if that was what happened, I am not going to delay my departure for a couple of hours just to pay them the fee.
.

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Sorry, but that makes you a thief.

Let's not complain about the fees in the first world moorings. Moorings in much of the world are as reliable as the weather. Frequently nothing more than a rope attached to an old car engine and not serviced until the rope breaks with a boat on the mooring.

The number of boaters we know that have dragged while on a mooring is legion. Best joke is the guy that drifted off with the mooring ball still attached. He was chased by the mooring ball operator for both the return of the ball and the mooring fee.

So I've always wondered how a marina (not government owned) can sink mooring balls in a navigational part of a waterway and then collect fees for anyone using them. Personally I prefer and trust my own anchor of tie to a dock.

Here in Maine all moorings are regulated by the local municipality and enforced by the harbor master. My "private" mooring costs me $270 a year if I do zero maintenance other than sinking the mooring in the fall and rerigging is in the spring. The town requires that I get it inspected every three years which costs about $250. I typically replace my top chain every 4-5 years at a cost of $500-$600. The bottom chain and attachment to the granite block are good for 15-20 years but cost about $1,500-$2,000 to replace. I also replace the pennant every other year at a cost of about $200 (pennant and shackles). So my private mooring has an average cost over 15 years of about $750 a year. If I wanted to rent it out I would have to have it inspected and replace the pennant every year which would bring the annual average cost to about $1,000/yr not including any insurance or cost to rent it (collect fees, take reservations, run moochers off, etc.). At $35 a night I would have to rent the mooring for a minimum of 29 nights to break even on my base costs.

So a mooring is not free to maintain. My mooring would cost about $2,000-$2,500 to set up now just for the ground tackle not including municipal fees.

"Here in Maine all moorings are regulated by the local municipality and enforced by the harbor master."

By what authority do they claim this ownership?

Force and Fraud ?

FF said:

"Here in Maine all moorings are regulated by the local municipality and enforced by the harbor master."

By what authority do they claim this ownership?

Force and Fraud ?

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Regulation is not ownership. Imposing a building code doesn't assume ownership of that building by the municipal government.

Regulations on moorings imposes safety. I'm sure some will argue this, but I don't want someone dropping an unsuitable mooring, with insufficient chain, then when a boat breaks free it causes damage to my property (boat, dock, etc).

Look at how many boats are tied to docks with improperly sized, frayed line that has no business securing that particular boat to a dock. There are similar folks who will do the same with a mooring. Unfortunately, there is a faction of the population which are cheap and lazy, and regulations are imposed and enforced on all of us to keep that small minority in check.

It is what it is.

TDunn said:

... At $35 a night I would have to rent the mooring for a minimum of 29 nights to break even on my base costs.

So a mooring is not free to maintain. My mooring would cost about $2,000-$2,500 to set up now just for the ground tackle not including municipal fees.

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On our way up the Florida coast we stopped in Vero Beach for 2 nights and took a mooring. Cost $32.10. We're in St Augustine on a mooring for a week. Cost $84.35 (we do get a weekly discount). In both cases the moorings include dinghy dock, trash disposal, showers, potable water, laundry access and come to your boat pump out service. After what TDunn says, I doubt they are a profit center for the town/Marina.

Is it a universal known that all mooring balls in the world are fee-based? I can see marine sanctuaries and state parks, but, how do you know?

Many mooring areas are set up to protect the bottom from those who anchor.

Ahhh, my pet peeve. Moorings.

First, the US government owns the bottom of navigable waterways. They cede the rights to manage those resources as a public trust to the states. There are limitations, such as the USACOR and USCG maintaining some regulatory rights.

Interesting aside here, if the USACOR maintains an area (dredging, breakwaters, etc.) then it's against the rules for a private entity (marina) to profit from that.

The states in New England typically delegate the responsibility of managing moorings to the municipalities.

Historically, the only ones who wanted moorings were fishermen who needed a mooring near enough to shoreside services like docks, and landowners who wanted to keep their boats within sight of their house. In both cases, most municipalities give these groups priority over usable mooring locations.

The key is, the moorings were always just off the town dock, or just off the property owner's land, or just off a marina.

Since moorings had to be near shoreside resources to be useful, this seemed to be the best way to manage that resource in the public trust. Basic economics tells us that this limited resource has a value, and you run into "tragedy of the commons" issues if you make it available for free.

So far, so good.

Enter "destination" moorings. The town clerks in Maine will happily accept mooring fees for moorings set far from shoreside resources, in historic anchoring grounds.

This sets aside that chunk of water for the exclusive use of one individual, 365 days a year. Most only visit their destination moorings on the occasional weekend.

Very quickly, good anchorages are becoming a sea of unused moorings of questionable quality. Cruisers can't anchor there, and taking a mooring is risky. In many places, it's understood that unused private moorings can be taken overnight by cruisers, but that's far from universal.

It comes back to that "public trust" thing. I'm fine with paying a nominal fee for a secure, reliable mooring with shoreside services. I think that anything above $15 to $25 a night seems excessive, but I guess the market will decide that.

What I can't fathom is allowing individuals to "reserve" prime anchorages for their personal use. Especially when they rarely use it. It sounds like Washington State has a better handle on this issue.