Bitten!

Nehringer, I think I know where you are coming from. For most of our boating life, when our kids were young we had trailer yachts, our last being a 'maxi'. It was fun, and they had the advantage of being able to be taken to interesting places quickly, but accommodation was pinched, privacy minimal.* Not an issue when kids are kids, but once they are teenagers or more, and one is not as flexible as before, then ROOM becomes more important - better still, ROOMS plural. We also found when we moved to a warmer climate from NZ, (Queensland, Australia), that being able to get out of the sun, but still be 'outside' was what one wanted to be able to do, but harder in a yacht, even quite a large one. And boy can I relate to your following comments...

"Geez! Hook up, drag it to the ramp, wait in line to launch, find a parking space for the boat, find a parking space for the truck and trailer, blast off, come back and repeat. Load up, tilt up, tie down, lower aerial equipment, go home, back in, pick up the trash can, straighten, back up, unhook, flush, wash, cover...its wearing me out just typing it all! Isn't it far less of a production to pay the harbor master each month, wheel the cooler down the dock, mount up, power up, disconnect shore power, cast the lines and ease out of the marina?"

And yes, I love the sentiment in the last sentence...and if someone offered me a trailer boat now, I would say, "thanks, but no thanks - been there, done that."

I think the coloquial term 'trawler' is understood, but a bit of a mis-nomer, as others have mentioned.* They are really 'coastal cruisers', with the top end ones being true long range, ocean-going versions.* I think this is the concept which has bitten you, and for good reason.* Stick to the plan, but take on board all the great advice you have had, and you won't go far wrong.* If I was to put here the pluses and minuses of my boat now after owning her 10 years, all I would change is for her to be a bit newer, with less timber in her construction, and a tad bigger, just enough to accommodate a double walkaround bed instead of Vee berths in the stateroom, otherwise I wouldn't change a thing, and we just love the sedan/Europa type layout.* If you want to fish as well, that's almost a must, for what it's worth.

Thanks all, and thank you Baker for posting that link. That is a beautiful boat. You're all actually giving me exactly what I asked for in my original post; options! Peter makes an excellent point in that it may not necessarily be a "trawler" but rather the whole idea of coastal cruising that appeals more so than the actual vessel. Of course after having narrowed my gaze ever so slightly, trawlers are all that I have been looking at and I have a really good idea now of the specific uses, features and style that we want. Its very true that another class may offer us the same and I will expand my horizons accordingly...maybe even take a look at a Californian up in Georgia! Still, and I don't care if it's powered by Cats of Hemi's, all I see when I push the knobs forward are dollar bills pouring out of the thru-hull exhaust ports. Pushing 12,000+ pounds of glass, wood, meat and gas at speeds of 20kts into a head sea sounds to me like a very expensive weekend. Boy, could you imagine a Hemi powered boat? I just threw that in there for effect, but egads! I think I would name the boat "Slurpie"; 1. because she'd be slurping down gas, and 2. a Slurpie would be all you could afford at the fuel dock!

We shall see. I'd really hate to put a magnificent fishing machine like that into service and spend the bulk of our time on her inside the rocks as opposed to using her for what she is really designed for. As far as living space, that specimen is quite spacious. However I sort of see it as a class C motorhome compared to the class A represented by slower trawlers and other types of cruisers. I definitely dig it, but I'll have to see what the Admiral thinks. I really don't think she wants to experience that whole crashing into the head sea at 20kts kinda thing anymore. I don't blame her. I'm ashamed to admit it, but due to the nature of my work I don't have any buddies here at home. I spend my working week immersed in a testosterone rich environment. That's where my pals are. Once or twice a year, I can get one of my buddies to travel from Louisiana to Florida for a little fishing, but that is more of a couples weekend. I don't EVER see loading the boat up full of my dude-bro's and spending the whole weekend slaying blue marlin in the canyon. Ain't gonna happen. My dad always told me never to use a tool for anything other than its intended use. I think I was driving a nail with a big crescent wrench at the time or something. To me a sportfish is a tool with a specific intended use. Sure, you can do the whole fam-camp thing on it. I'd feel pretty guilty if I thought that I "stole" a boat like that from the used market and thus kept a charter captain out of business. Then again...chartering the boat myself to a captain could possibly get me a boat for free at some point. Yes, I read other threads too!

My database of information is continuing to grow and this is probably one of the most fair and informative message board threads I have ever participated on. That by itself speaks volumes about the sort of people I am likely to encounter cruising on a trawler, compared to the ilk that normally runs sport-fishers. You can find many of those fellas over on Thehulltruth.com. After spending some time on that board, I can honestly say that I have finally found a collection of grown-ups with whom to share boating insights. Just mosey on over to that sight an read some posts in the boating thread, if you haven't before. Its terrifying to realize that some of those fools posting there are actually out on the same water as you are. Thanks again!

All good posts thus far. *

My answers to the original questions:

1) No, it's probably not cost effective to own a boat for many years before cruising full time, however, it sure is heck is FUN to own a boat that you can cruise locally and spend the night on! *

2) Should you look for the "end all- be all boat" or what meets your needs now....I'd go for what meets your needs now and the near future. *

*

Trawlers definitely have their plusses and minuses. *We are slightly younger than you perhaps and younger kids (late 30's for us, 7 and 8 year old kids). *We find our trawler a great platform for time on the water. *We've owned faster express cruisers and a bigger gas powered sport sedan, all of them less than a few years old when we bought them. *As you said, if you are going fast, you're paying to play and paying a LOT to do that. *You are going to be potentially limited in cruising range by going for a slow trawler but you will save a ton of money. *Trips I have taken on our trawler cost me up to $1,000 less in fuel than I would have spent in my previous 38' gas powered sedan. *It is a trade off but there is a lot of happiness to be had in knowing your boating is costing you virtually nothing. *Hahaha- nothing- well, not quite if I actually factor in all the costs, but hey, fuel is among my lowest expense. *And while most folks on our dock with the faster boats sit at the dock due to their fuel costs, we are anchored out every weekend having fun with the kids. *Reality is that most folks cruise their larger/faster boats at hull speed so 90% of the time they are traveling the same pace I am. *Difference is they may be burning 10 gallons per hour and I am burning less than 2.

Personally, we also love the salty looks and warm, classic interior...it calls to us MUCH more than any of our previous boats ever did. *Our boat was a project boat of sorts that we have done a full refit on and learned a ton about her systems as we rebuilt stuff. *In the end, old boats have their issues and require work, but at the same time, a trawler can be a very cost effective way to get your family on the water and never have to worry about the expense of boating or rising fuel prices. *Our family loves being on our trawler and working on her has been a fabulous bonding experience for my son and I especially (not that we weren't close to begin with).

And I am with Baker, I don't care what the cost savings is of a larger gas powered boat, I'll personally never own another one!! *They are underpowered, handle terribly, and are a bomb waiting to explode and E10 fuel is causing tons of problems.

*

P.S. I know that Californian sportfish Baker linked to in Cumming, GA on Lake Lanier. *She was kept on the dock across from us for years when we were there with our previous boat and I've walked around it on the docks as I have sold several boats on the dock she is on. *he fires the engines up once a year and they smoke like crazy but probably kills all the spiders on the dock! * *I can give you more info if you are interested in that particular boat. *I don't think she's left the dock in years.


-- Edited by Woodsong on Thursday 14th of July 2011 10:36:41 AM

Isn't it far less of a production to pay the harbor master each month, wheel the cooler down the dock, mount up, power up, disconnect shore power, cast the lines and ease out of the marina?"

Click to expand...

*Mmmm.... not necessarily * If you get into this type of boat you will find that there can be a fair amount that needs to be done before getting underway.* We have a checklist we use before getting going and anther one for before we leave the boat after a trip.* Engine room checks, opening or closeing certain seacocks, opening and closing propane bottles, getting the navigation equipment programmed, and so on.

Before we go home we always leave the boat ready to go for the next trip.* And no matter how much we try to streamline the process it always seems to take about two hours.* What with vacuuming, washing things down, flushing the dinghy motor, stowing things where they belong, and so on.* Our first boat, which we still have, is a 17' trailer fishing boat and if I discount the time driving to and from the boat launch I would guess that we spend at least the same amount of time, if not more, getting the GB ready to go or ready to leave as we do launching, retrieving, and cleaning up the trailer boat.

That said we also know people with cruising boats who come down, get on, toss stuff up forward, start up, and go.* And when they come back the tie up, shut down, lock up, and leave.* But their boats are in what I would call a permanent state of disaray and dirt.* So it all depends on what state you like to keep your boat

Yeah, I'm sure I over-simplified it to a degree. BUT, side by side...c'mon man...you have to admit that a slipped boat is less of an ordeal than a shore boat. I'm still going to have a little shore boat, but it will be child's play compared to the behemoth on wheels we just got rid of, or even a direct replacement for it. I mean child's play in the literal sense as I will be trusting my first mate to tow, launch, operate and recover it himself. We're close enough to the marina that we could spend Friday night on the boat and prepare it for a weekend outing.

After looking at some of the other boats that have been suggested, I'm starting to look at all of the Californians. I know you said that the brand wasn't of particular importance, but the Californian line seems to stand out with most of the features we are looking for. Any particular gouge on that brand? I'm very familiar with the construction of shore boats and I know what deficiencies to look for in a used one. With larger boats, what should I be aware of in terms of construction? I'm talking about structural components such as stringers, transoms, bulkheads, etc. Blisters are basically impossible to see until the boat is hauled and old bottom paint removed, but is that a serious area of concern too? I get the sense that fiberglass trawlers, cruisers, etc. are built with a little more attention to detail as opposed to the mass production techniques of shore boats. Am I on point here? I know that a good survey will identify most deficiencies, but I would be looking at the boat first, before I have it surveyed. I need to know what to eliminate before I spend money on a surveyor.

nehringer wrote:
I know you said that the brand wasn't of particular importance, but the Californian line seems to stand out with most of the features we are looking for. Any particular gouge on that brand?

I know that a good survey will identify most deficiencies, but I would be looking at the boat first, before I have it surveyed. I need to know what to eliminate before I spend money on a surveyor.

Click to expand...

When I said brand wasn't important I meant when you first start making decisions about what sort of boat to get.* Thoroughly defining all your requirements--- and I mean ALL--- will narrow your search down to a particular type and configuration of boat.* Trawler, sportfisherman,*tri-cabin, pilothouse, planing, semi-planing, displacement, single engine, twin,*or whatever.* But when you're ready to begin your search for*the particular type of boat that you've decided best fits your requirements,*brand becomes extremely important.

I know virtually nothing about the Californian brand.* I've never been on one, I don't know anyone personally who has one.* I don't much care for the aesthetics of their designs*so I*would never consider buying one.* Consequently I've spent no time learning anything about them. *But like music,*this is a totally subjective opinion and has no bearing whatsoever*on what you or anyone else likes.* So the only suggestion I can offer is hunt up people in your area*who have them, preferably similar models and ages as the*Californians you're interested in, and ask them everything you can think of about the boat.* This will help you learn what specific things to look for and be aware of.*

If there is an on-line owners group for Californians, join it and start asking questions.* We frequently get people unfamiliar with Grand Banks on the GB owners group asking questions about the boats, either as new owners or potential owners.* There is proabably no better source for detailed information about a specific brand and model than an owners group.

When we went to inspect, sea trial, and have surveyed the Grand Banks we eventually bought my wife and I knew next to nothing about these boats other than what we'd learned in the course of chartering one.* So in the days prior to our going to California to inspect the boat*we drew up a list of everything*we could think of that we should check out.* I mean everything, from whether or not the clock worked to what the engine exhaust looked like on startup.* We put down every piece of equipment, switch, mechanical device, water faucet, upholstery,*you name it, that we figured would be on a boat like this.*

When*we we got to the boat we went through our list item by item.* We'd put a few things on the list that*weren't on the boat, and the boat had a few things that weren't on our list.* But it was a great aid in helping us*conduct a systematic inspection and check-out of the boat.* The list started at the bow and worked its way to the stern.

But the real proof of the pudding is in the professional engine and hull/system surveys you have done.* This generally requires two surveyors since most of them specialize in either engines or hulls/systems.* We hired what were supposed to be among the best engine and hull surveyors in the SFO Bay area and had them thoroughly check out the boat, the engines, and the generator.* Survey results are, in my opinion, the most valuable aids you will have in making your purchase decision.* Good surveys by professional surveyors familiar with the*type and brand of boat*you're*considering and the kind of engine(s) in it*aren't cheap.* But they are far cheaper than buying a bad boat.

If you find a boat you think is a real candidate but--* like us at the time--*you're not all that familiar with this kind of boat and you're not*sure what problems or potential problems to be on the lookout for, you*might want to do what we did and take a friend or acquaintance along who is very familiar with this kind of boat.*

The friend we took with us to California in 1998 to help us check out the boat we'd made an offer on had a 30-year and counting career in the marine engineering*industry and was totally familiar with the type of boat we were looking at.* But the real value to us was that*he was totally objective.* Unlike our and the*seller's brokers who were both there, too, he had nothing to gain or lose in the sale of*the boat*and he didn't care if we bought* it or not.* So he had no emotional involvement in the process.* I don't know if you know anyone like this but if you do they could be a real asset in your corner as you look for the boat that's right for you.*

The cost of our friend's airfare, lodging, and meals for the two days we were in Alameda I consider to be some of the best money we've ever spent.* His presence and advice took a lot of pressure off of us and*served as a credibility check on what the surveyors were telling us.* This made us much more confident throughout the whole inspection, sea trial, and survey process, and ultimately, it gave us confidence in our decision.* It also made the whole experience a lot of fun.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 14th of July 2011 08:22:19 PM

As a long time Californian owner, mine is a 37' tricabin 1976 model, (about the same as a 38", just not enough deck space for a storage hatch in the rear deck) I can tell you they are built like a brick s--t house.* Heavy construction, with solid glassed in wood stringers and they will take a lot of rough water abuse!!* The glass is well laid up and plenty heavy, never had a problem.* Never had any blisters or separations, voids or delaminations. My two friends, a 38' and a 42' tricabins, would tell you the same thing.
They are very roomy boats and easy to handle.* Californians were pretty much all twin diesels 34' and up.* Now somebody surprise me and tell me they have a single.* They made many different variants.* I ran across a Californian commercial gillnet fishing boat once.* You would recognize it in a minute with the distinctive house and flybridge, way to weird!!
*
I have seen mostly Perkins fours and sixs, 85's, 130 hp - 185 hp either turbo'd or na's.* The na's seemed to hold up better though.* Later they began to use 3208 cats, na's and turbo's, and with 375 hp each they could get up and haul tail, at some expense of course.* I guess it wasn't so expensive then as red diesel was around .50 per gallon in those days.* I remember filling mine up in Lake Union, Seattle when I picked her up from the dealer, it was .42 cents per gallon for No 2 in 1977.
The one weakness I have found is in the windows.* The windows are not just wood trimmed, they are wood window frames with the glass sealed into them.* The diesel vibration and effects of time eventually loosens the sealant and they will leak.* You have to remove the trim every couple of years scrape out the old sealant and reseal them. The 10' long aft cabin windows are the worst and are best replaced with aluminum frames and new glass, which is less than a thousand to do them both.*
They have always been a great buy and other than that, love the boat.

nehringer wrote:
Hello all. I've recently been bitten with the trawler bug. I've been boating all my life and I have been through a pair of offshore fishing boats in the last two years. My last was a big Pro Line, twin OB walk-around. After carefully examining our intended usage of the next boat, it seems that something a little less utilitarian is what we really want. We still want to fish, but I think camping and cruising are going to be higher priorities.
[snip]

Click to expand...

Sir,

I am "40 something" and by no means retired or semi-retired or independently wealthy.*

However, I have watched my finances carefully, and I am debt free.* I paid cash for my trawler because I consider it a toy and not an investment. I did, however raid my home equity line for part of the cost, but the rate is currently 1.75% so that is basically free after the tax break.

The time my wife and I have spent on our boat so far are worth every penny we paid for it, and afterwards that is gravy.*

If your finances are correct then buy a boat that won't bust your retirement.


-- Edited by Egregious on Thursday 14th of July 2011 09:28:10 PM

That's awesome, Woody. I'm not far behind you. My finances have seen both sides of the storm and will be correct within about 20 months or so. Two divorces within 10 years is financially crippling, I don't care how much one makes. I'm on the downhill run. so to speak, from the last one and I can finally see light at the end of the tunnel. It's now a matter of firm discipline and doing without some things until my house is completely in order. That is why I am conducting such extensive research now; I've got time.

Edelweiss, I understand that you have had that boat since it was new...wow...fantastic! Thank you for the information. I'm quite sure that any longtime owner of about any brand would make similar comments about theirs, but that is all good stuff to hear. Unlike Marin, I am actually drawn by the Californian aesthetics. In addition to the 42' tri-cabin, I like the 38' sport fish, lrc tri-cabin and even the 34' lrc. I don't know exactly what it is, but they are all representative of all of the things we like. Not that another brand is incapable of impressing me, but so far, two dimensionally I'm diggin the Cali's. Once this process reaches the "tire-kicking stage" I will be able to make a more subjective inspection of my aesthetic likes and dislikes of all of the others.

Marin, this site is an awesome networking resource and I have no doubt that at some point I will have someone locally who can assist me with the selection process.

Baker wrote:
And as I type this my wife texts me about a boat that I have been lusting for going on sale for a song.......talk about bitten!!!!!!!!!!!

Click to expand...

*What boat do you lust for baker?

Yes there are a lot of rivers to explore down here, Charles. BTW, Patterson was one of my favorite bases to fly out of when I was with Air Logistics. I've played hundreds of holes at Achafalaya and I've eaten hundreds of crabs and crawfish at Susie's in Morgan City. I'm working out of Venice now, but I'm offshore for my whole hitch. I miss the exposure to the REAL Louisiana culture along US 90.

"Is it worth the burden of ownership only to use a trawler locally?"

The burden of keeping a well maintained boat up are minor.

Any thing that might die should be replaced with commercial grade , not yacht grade.

The largest cost is usually a slip and if required insurance.

Pay for the boat , and you may wish to contemplate "self insurance".

A mooring ball will usually rent for 1/5 to 1/10 of a dockside slip.

A proper cruising boat should be able to operate with out a power cord or noisemaker , if the new boat is not outfitted for this , the ca$h savings will easily pay for the various upgrades.

DO it now ,

Alfton wrote:Baker wrote:
And as I type this my wife texts me about a boat that I have been lusting for going on sale for a song.......talk about bitten!!!!!!!!!!!

Click to expand...

*What boat do you lust for baker?

*A Sabre 36 Sedan!!!!

*

And Ringer, I honestly don't think you can go wrong with Californian. *I would even go so far as to say the one thing Egregious pointed out as a negative MIGHT have been adress in newer builds. *Newer Californians usually do not have window leak issues...at least the ones I have looked at. *Also, don't overlook the 38/43 Motoryachts. *The 43 is a 38 with a 5ft cockpit. *Those boats are quite large for their size and appear to be a great value when looking for volume in a boat. *They are ocassionally powered by Detroits so shop accordingly. *Anyway, good luck!!! *Exciting times ahead!!!


-- Edited by Baker on Monday 18th of July 2011 08:02:32 AM

Well, its on now! After accepting an invitation to take a guided tour of a beautiful GB42, we're sold. I kinda figured we would be. Thanks Steve and Rich! It was amazingly informative to be given a tour of a boat that wasn't for sale. Well, everything is for sale, as our host explained, but he wasn't trying to sell us the boat. With such a low pressure demonstration we were able to learn about all of the little issues, gripes and complaints as well as all of the positive aspects. Not only have we eliminated just about every other sort of boat we may have been interested in, but we've also made some new friends who have a wealth of experience and information to share. Again, I want to say thanks to the membership here for being so polite and professional. My other cyber hang-outs are a little less cordial. Something else I have noticed is that most folks on here are not ashamed or afraid to admit that they learned by trial and error. While there are some very experienced skippers here, that experience hasn't come cheap or easy and these hard lessons are very freely shared here. On other boating boards, some contributors claim to be experts and back up that claim by their number of posts, but their actual contribution to the boating community ends there.

So, I'm just going to ask one more question for now...broker, or no broker? Advantages, disadvantages? Is there a dollar amount that necessitates a broker, or can even a 6 figure deal be done privately with no representation? (I know I said one question, but one answer can answer all of that!)


-- Edited by nehringer on Monday 18th of July 2011 08:10:50 AM

nehringer wrote:

So, I'm just going to ask one more question for now...broker, or no broker? Advantages, disadvantages? Is there a dollar amount that necessitates a broker, or can even a 6 figure deal be done privately with no representation? (I know I said one question, but one answer can answer all of that!)



-- Edited by nehringer on Monday 18th of July 2011 08:10:50 AM

Click to expand...

*To me there is no difinitive answer to your question.* A broker that is acting on your befalf can be invaluable.* On the other hand, there is nothing wrong with a deal between two individuals.

Whichever you choose, it will be up to you to do due dilligence and become an informed consumer.* By asking questions, you are on the right track.* Research the boats you are interested in.* Find their value as well as short comings.* Remember, list prices and sell prices are not usually the same.* A excellent surveryor can be of immense help in keeping you out of trouble.* However, remember even the best are not perfect.* There can be many hidden things on a boat.

The quest for a boat can be an adventure.* You will see much and learn much.* As you gain knowledge, you will be more comfortable with your selection.* Take your time.* A Grand Banks?* They are at the top of the line for their style boat.* Even they can have problems like older fuel tanks.* No boat will be without its problems.* However, if it wasn't worth it, would we own boats?

Oh, I didn't mean we were sold on the GB. I mean, its lovely, but there are lots of others out there. Nothing is out of the question at this point. I'm really looking forward to the whole process, but I am trying to remain cautiously enthusiastic about it. Getting all jazzed up like a little boy in a toy store has gotten ALL of us into trouble at some point!

No big deal to do without a broker , but a good surveyor and a power train survey (different guy) would be part of the requirement.

Many common flaws can be found on the net , as well as the repairs.

Dave Pascoe's book is good for many brands and styles.

nehringer wrote:


So, I'm just going to ask one more question for now...broker, or no broker? Advantages, disadvantages?

Click to expand...

*Like everything else in boating, the right answer is..... it depends.* We would not have found the boat we have today if it had not been for a broker.*

Boats are a lot like real estate, I've learned.* The broker "community" often shares information about what's coming on the market before it actually does.* That was the case with the boat we bought.* Previous owner had just purchased a GB46 and didn't want to own two boats.* So as he ran his GB46 down the coast from Vancouver, BC to Alalameda, CA he instructed his broker to put his old GB36 on the market.* His broker had a relationship with the GB dealership in Bellingham/Seattle so the first thing he did was give them a call and asked them if they had anyone interested in an older GB36.* That was the day we walked into the dealership to inquire about buying an older GB.* So the boat we bought never even hit the market.

A good broker will know a whole lot more about the kinds of boats you're interested in than you do at this point (as was the case with us).* So they can be the difference between finding a good boat or searching for months or even years on your own.* Or worse, buying a bad boat.

BUT..... brokers are like every other sales "professional.* There are good ones who genuinely have their customers' interests at heart, and there are the ones who are just in it for the sale and the money.* We were lucky--- the GB broker we made an appointment with turned out to be outstanding.* He even flew to California with us to help check out the boat at no cost to us.* And he has remained a good friend.* But for every one of those stories there is a story about how a bad broker took some customer for a ride or didn't do them any favors at all.

So you need to shop for a broker somewhat the same as you shop for a boat. Ask around, get opinons from buyers who have used the various brokers in your area, meet with them to check them out yourself, and so on.

For a long-time boater with a lot of experience with boats of this type, who does a lot of his own maintenance and repair work and so understands the construction, engines, and systems of boats, a broker may not be much of an advantage or any advantage at all.* But for someone new to this kind of boating I believe a broker can help narrow the search and help you evaluate what particular boat(s) might best suit you.* But you need to find the right broker, just as you need to find the right boat.

Were we ever to be in a position to buy a different boat we would use a broker again.* Mainly to save time.* We like boating but we don't like it enough to spend hours or days poring over ads and looking at boat after boat.* We have more important things to do with our time so we are happy to leave the search aspect to a good broker, the keyword being "good."* But we would also use a broker because were we ever to buy a different boat, the make and model we would buy is one we have no familiarity with in tems of construction, systems, potential problems, etc. and so we're not in a good positioni to judge if a particular example was good, bad or indifferent.* We know a lot more than we did before we got into this kind of boating but we don't know enough to accurately evaluate the specific make of boat we would buy.* So we'd want help with that and a good broker can really help with that.

PS--- FF mentioned David Pascoe.* It's worth it to check out Pascoe's extensive website on which he gives his opinon on many makes and models of boats, listing both the good and the bad features of each of them.* You have to do this with the understanding that Pascoe is very opinionated (who isn't in this field?) and his opinions tend to run to the negative side.* However he words his opinons as though they are gospel so you need to read his stuff with this in mind--- it's good information to have but it's not gospel. It's one guy's opinion and he's not always right.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 18th of July 2011 11:22:58 AM

I looked at his website and while I found most of the information useful, his book is a little high. I have David Kroenkes's book, "Know your boat" and I find his information entertaining as well as useful. I bought the book a few years ago and although most of the information in it was geared towards more complex systems, like with trawlers, it worked for my application. At the time I was new to inboards and I learned a great deal from it. I'd like to find another book that addresses more systems in greater detail, but for now this will work. I'll just couple the text with what I can glean online and hopefully make a well informed decision...in a year or so.

nehringer wrote:
I'd like to find another book that addresses more systems in greater detail, ....

Click to expand...

*As you can imagine there are tons of books out there on just about every boating subject you can think of.* In terms of more detailed information I'll list a few books that I've found very helpful and informative on specific systems.* I'm sure plenty of others will chime in with books on systems, maintenance, etc. that they've found helpful, too.

"Marine Diesel Engines" by Nigel Calder

"The Radar Book" by Kevin Monahan

"Boatowners Mechanical and Electrical Manual" by Nigel Calder

"The Complete Book of Mooring and Anchoring" by Earl Hinz

"Brightwork: The Art of Finishing Wood" by Rebecca Whitman

"How to Read a Nautical Chart" by Kevin Monahan

"I looked at his website ( Dave Pascoe)and while I found most of the information useful, his book is a little high."

You are going to dump $20K to $200K in a hole in the water and under $100 bucks knowledge book is "a little high"?

Perhaps you should research "boat bucks" , and keep trolling to learn the cost of purchasing a vessel unsuitable to your needs.

Many folks make the mistake that mere volume or a splash of wood has great value,

when the value is actually the package , design , construction ,materials , interior function , machinery installation , scantlings , and out fitting choices (dock queen , cruiser , all weather comfort).

All these need to be considered to make an intelligent selection of boats that will suit your intended use "Desirements".

If you are up to speed on all this it is still worthwhile to have help seperiating the gold from the dross. A survey will not help.


-- Edited by FF on Tuesday 19th of July 2011 03:41:57 AM

FF, if the book in question is a recognized text used by the ABYC or in Marine Surveyor training, then I can understand the exorbitant price. I'm not a book guy. With so much information available today on the internet, the information books contain is just about obsolete. I didn't say books were obsolete...just some of the information. Its disproportionate to me to pay so much money for information that is available in other media forms. There are certain texts and informational printed media I like to keep on the shelf and for many of my books, I paid more than I wanted to, but they were required for a course and cost a little more. Original printings of timeless classics, best sellers, etc are other examples of expensive books. The cost of an informational book isn't exactly offset by the cost of the interest that the book covers. I've got a pretty good grip on those elements that form the value of a vessel, and I am very familiar with the cost of an unsuitable vessel.

A boat IS a major investment...(not in the sense that there is any financial return, but rather a significant and recurring financial commitment). It makes plenty of sense to back up this investment with the best and most accurate collection of information available. I don't think its fair to assign a monetary value to that information. I just think the price of printed media in this day and age is a little disproportionate.

And FYI, most of the books in Marin's list are considered "classics"....or "bibles" of their intended audience and use.

And as far as "investment"....think of boating as a cost...and not an investment. And ultimately what we are trying to help you with is getting the most value for that cost. And most of the value derived from boating is not in the hardware....it is in the enjoyment you get out of it which is pretty tough to measure.

And FYI, most of the books in Marin's list are considered "classics"....or "bibles" of their intended audience and use.

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I will second that.

Several of them are outstanding references regardless of your level of knowledge or experience.

Regarding Pascoe's book, I think Mr. Nehringer made a wise decision. A lot of what Pascoe writes is technical nonsense and opinion that is not supported by facts. He is second*on my list of*machinery "gurus"*who are best*ignored.*

nehringer wrote:
I'm not a book guy. With so much information available today on the internet, the information books contain is just about obsolete.

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*The problem with the internet it that it makes everyone equal. If it's in print, it must be right, right?* With a book (print or e-book) the chances are pretty good that the author knew his/her subject and, while the text may still be one person's opinion or view on a particular subject, the effort to research, write, publish, market, and distribute the book means it's most likely going to be pretty credible information.

The internet, on the other hand, gives equal credibility to both the fool and the genius.* I requires virtually no effort to "publish" on the internet.* All you have to be able to do is type and hit "enter."* Witness many of the postings or quoted "articles" on the "Off The Deep End" section of this forum alone. There's a reason for sites like Snopes--- so much crap is on the internet there is actually a market for services to try to help people tell the crap from the truth.

The internet is a wonderful thing.* As a writer, I have found it an invaluable tool for both of the books I am currently writing.* In fact, I write with two windows open on the screen--- my manuscript and Google.* For looking up facts--- the price of gasoline in Rhode Island in 1942 as an example of someting I needed to know for one book, or the reason for the Great Seattle Fire for the other book--- it's terrific.

But to learn the proper use of radar or the best techniques for anchoring a boat, I will take a book by a credible, experienced expert on the subject over the writings and posts I see on the internet every time.* Not that what some people say on these subjects on the internet isn't correct, but I have no way of knowing if it is or isn't unless I already know how to do it and can so judge what others area saying.* And if I know the subject well enough to be able to separate the crap from the truth, well, then I don't need the information anyway---* I already have it.

The internet exceptions are people I personally know have the necessary experience, knowledge, and professional background to be true experts on a subject.* A good example is Bob Lowe on the Grand Banks owners forum.* For years Bob managed Oak Harbor Boatworks in Washington State, a boatyard that specialized in the maintenance, repair, and restoration of Grand Banks boats, both wood and fiberglass.* From his years of experience Bob knows just about everything there is to know about these boats.* While he hasn't written a book on the subject, I know that if he did it would become a "bible" in the same way the books I listed above have become.* So Bob is a person who posts on the internet that I give complete credibiilty to. But people like this are, in my view, few and far between.* For example there* is only one person (in my view) who fits this category on TrawlerForum, for example.

While the nature of books is changing with e-books and the like, what they represent has not changed.* Whether you want to know what led to the outbreak of WWI or how to repair damaged wood on a boat, I believe a book--- whether you read it on paper pages or off a Kindle or iPad screen--- is still the best, most reliable source of acurate and valuable information out there.

A very good point that I have never really thought about, Marin. Even Snopes sometimes seems to have a slant to it so I even question them sometimes.....but I definitely get your point and it is a good one!!!

One needs to know something of the sources to help evaluate their message.* In most instances this isn't possible on the Internet.* Nevertheless, printed material is frequently wrong or incomplete.

Newspaper accounts of audits I was directly involved with were usually*partly wrong and incomplete.

The published account of my father's B-17 abandonment after being hit with AAA over Germany gave a sanitized version*not mentioning one crewman's reluctance to jump causing delay for some of the crew, and it*didn't mention the fortuitousness of my father's practice of equipping the plane with a couple of extra parachutes as one crew member's chute was damaged.

I make a distinction between a book--- and in this discussion we're talking about books on various aspects and techniques of boating-- and "The Media" in the form of newspapers, magazines, etc. "The Media" very often gets things wrong as Mark points out. They are particularly ignorant when it comes to any sort of technical field--- aviation, the oil industry, shipping industry, nuclear power, etc.--- so with a few exceptions I generally give them little more credibility than "writings" on the internet.

But a book by an author who did his or her research or has a long career of being involved with the subject or is an expert on whatever the book is about is still, in my opinion, as credible and accurate an treatise on the subject as one can find. Particularly on the kinds of topics we are talking about here--- boat systems, boat maintenance, boating techniques, and so on.

But authors are people, too, and they have opinions, they make decisions about what to include in a book and what to leave out, and they have reasons-- perhaps not always the best ones--- for portraying an event in a particular way. But by and large someone who goes to the huge effort--- and believe me, it is a huge effort--- to write a book most likely is or has become a credible expert on whatever he or she is writing about.

This is a far cry from the internet where anyone can write up any old crap they want based on hearsay, rumors, their own beliefs, or just plain untruths, post it to a forum or a web page or whatever at which point, if they are even halfway decent writers, an amazingly large number of people will glom onto their crap as gospel. This can apply as much to posts on the best oil for an engine as it can to some political or social topic. So when it comes to the internet, reader beware.

Here, here! Thus my whole contention with...that OTHER boating website. I received Chapman's as a hand-me-down. As the son of a son of a sailor, I thought it was a most appropriate gift. I intend to collect certain volumes of nautical texts, but they will be of the titles that you referred to earlier. I also have a condensed Chapman's that will be a permanent part of my ship's library.

I just think the price of printed media in this day and age is a little disproportionate.

A Limited market equals a higher price for the authors efforts , no one works for nothing .

The "value" of any publication is defined by the experience of the reader.

I ran a yard and was an OEM for years , but have not surveyed over 1000 boats , so am happy to pay for the OPINIONS of someone not selling anything BUT his opinion.

WE all use different tools to solve problems , but to me "Knowledge is Power "(F.Bacon) seems to work.

*

What type of boat , which style of boat would work for you is quite different from how to add a battery switch.


-- Edited by FF on Wednesday 20th of July 2011 04:09:08 AM