Freak accident and Fuel tank removal advice 38' Marshall californian

koliver · Apr 16, 2017

Peter B said:
I'm still waiting to hear from someone in the US as to why this could even happen in view of the comment above. I can't believe that in such a safety conscious country as the US, they would allow hands-free fuel pumping without a safety tank-full shut-off system.

I just came through California, Oregon and Washington, fuelling the Motorhome in each. I didn't find anywhere that had the hands free clip removed. I was able to set the nozzle and go clean the windows. I saw truckers set the nozzle and go inside the store. This may not apply universally, but they certainly don't have the safety rules that we have in Canada, where all pumps have the hands free clip removed.

psneeld · Apr 16, 2017

I don't think I have ever had a problem with hands free filling a vehicle...even in NJ where attendees have to fuel you and they ALWAYS use hands free.

Boats a different story.

I hope they never ban it at gas stations...no reason...boats...different story.

FlyWright · Apr 16, 2017

I recently refueled in Antioch, CA and was told by the operator that the state had shut them down for a couple of days because they still had the hands-free clips in place. They had to cut them off and be re-inspected before being allowed to reopen for business.

Private confession: I used my loose fuel cap to hold the lever on while listening to the vent whistle.

psneeld · Apr 16, 2017

I believe it.....maybe not a bad idea, but anyone pumping hundreds of gallons of fuel sooner or later jambs the handle anyway...

So in the big scheme of things...not sure outlawing the hands free latch is a better alternative to shoving something in the handle which people do all the time. Tho the shutoff should still work with either way.

Edelweiss · Apr 17, 2017

FlyWright said:
Private confession: I used my loose fuel cap to hold the lever on while listening to the vent whistle.

Me too Al. It was nice of Californian to use just the right fuel cap size for holding the pump trigger. But I never walk away from the nozzle while it's running in any case. :blush:

TG · Apr 17, 2017

I used to experience a similar issue when filling my 42. If I went too fast it would blow a geyser out the fill tube. There were several issues with the venting. I have the same 4 x 125 gallon tanks.

The first issue was the vent fittings that go through the side hull. They were old and crusty and clogged so I replaced all four with new.

The second issue was all the vent lines were looped. I suppose someone thought that would stop moisture from getting in the tank. Never loop the vent lines. The vent lines should run a path from the hull vent to the tank with a continuous downward slope with no sags and no loops. That way if fuel or water enter the vent they will drain back to the tank and the vent stays open.

The third and last issue was the 1/2 inch right angle vent nipples that are welded to the tanks. These are made of steel and two of mine were clogged solid with internal scale and rust. It's difficult to clean them due to the hard right angle. I used a long ziptie and ran it back and forth until they were clear.

The end result is I can fill at full speed now and no geyser.

Restitution · Apr 17, 2017

TG said:
I used to experience a similar issue when filling my 42. If I went too fast it would blow a geyser out the fill tube. There were several issues with the venting. I have the same 4 x 125 gallon tanks.

The first issue was the vent fittings that go through the side hull. They were old and crusty and clogged so I replaced all four with new.

The second issue was all the vent lines were looped. I suppose someone thought that would stop moisture from getting in the tank. Never loop the vent lines. The vent lines should run a path from the hull vent to the tank with a continuous downward slope with no sags and no loops. That way if fuel or water enter the vent they will drain back to the tank and the vent stays open.

The third and last issue was the 1/2 inch right angle vent nipples that are welded to the tanks. These are made of steel and two of mine were clogged solid with internal scale and rust. It's difficult to clean them due to the hard right angle. I used a long ziptie and ran it back and forth until they were clear.

The end result is I can fill at full speed now and no geyser.

Thanks for the info. Yes, I am going to check all the above that you suggested. I do believe that loops in the hoses are to prevent a heavy following sea from pushing sea water up and into the tank?

Simi 60 · Apr 18, 2017

Peter B said:
In Australia, all fuel filling pump nozzles, petrol & diesel, have to have their click on 'hands free' removed, so you have to stand there and hold them on the whole time. A bit tedious, but...

And Dog invented electrical ties and Australians wanting more than 50 litres rejoiced.

Andy G · Apr 18, 2017

Not sure your insurance company would see it that way if anything went wrong.Still, you could always blame it on the dog.

kev_rm · Apr 18, 2017

re tank test pressure - 5 psi is around 10 feet of vertical diesel geyser. Did the backflow really get that high?

(10M of water = 1 ATM = 14.7psi & diesel is less dense than water)

Peter B · Apr 18, 2017

There is an unwritten rule of the sea, and seagoing folk - we are allowed to slightly exaggerate...

BruceK · Apr 18, 2017

Andy G said:
Not sure your insurance company would see it that way if anything went wrong.Still, you could always blame it on the dog.

I think it`s a dyslectic dog, as in the agnostic dyslectic insomniac who lies awake at night wondering if there is a Dog.
As I recall, those auto off fuel nozzle fillers were hit and miss, some clicked off as you`d hope, some clicked off with a blowback shower of fuel.
If you buy fuel at Baileys self service facility in Sydney, as part of their online induction videos on which you are examined before they will issue a user card, they make it a 3 person job: one with the filler nozzle, one watching the tank level, one at the pump standing by the big red emergency OFF switch.

Andy G · Apr 19, 2017

BruceK said:
at Baileys self service facility in Sydney, as part of their online induction videos on which you are examined before they will issue a user card, they make it a 3 person job: one with the filler nozzle, one watching the tank level, one at the pump standing by the big red emergency OFF switch.

Well that is fine if you are in a menage a trois.

High Wire · Apr 19, 2017

If the fuel exiting the nozzle is coming out in a wide spray pattern, it will effectively block off any vent pathway back out from the fill pipe.

leeman · Apr 19, 2017

koliver said:
I just came through California, Oregon and Washington, fuelling the Motorhome in each. I didn't find anywhere that had the hands free clip removed. I was able to set the nozzle and go clean the windows. I saw truckers set the nozzle and go inside the store. This may not apply universally, but they certainly don't have the safety rules that we have in Canada, where all pumps have the hands free clip removed.

Just to keep the record straight- while BC may remove the hands free function,
Alberta doesn't and I believe most other western provinces don't.
BC law also makes you prepay for your fuel which is unique in Canada. But that's another story.

BruceK · Apr 19, 2017

Andy G said:
[/B]

Well that is fine if you are in a menage a trois.

I suppose it could work, nozzles and filler tubes, that kind of thing....

BTW, we had the experience last year of being required to pay in advance for fuel for the car in BC, seemed odd,but they must get some non paying drive offs. Not required in Alberta.

koliver · Apr 19, 2017

BruceK said:
I suppose it could work, nozzles and filler tubes, that kind of thing....
BTW, we had the experience last year of being required to pay in advance for fuel for the car in BC, seemed odd,but they must get some non paying drive offs. Not required in Alberta.

Several years ago a gas station attendant named Grant was dragged to his death by a fuel and dash customer that he attempted to stop. Following that, "Grant's Law" was enacted, requiring prepayment, so as to prevent a recurrence of that particular tragedy. It is a provincial law, so only in BC.

Peter B · Apr 19, 2017

koliver said:
Several years ago a gas station attendant named Grant was dragged to his death by a fuel and dash customer that he attempted to stop. Following that, "Grant's Law" was enacted, requiring prepayment, so as to prevent a recurrence of that particular tragedy. It is a provincial law, so only in BC.

Years ago when we lived back in NZ, it was the common practice to close up the shop at a fuel (service) station from about 9pm, and one paid for the fuel before pumping. It prevented drive-aways without paying, and assaults on staff and robberies. I still can't understand why that is not practised here in Aus, and elsewhere, (BC in Canada was wise), even now to prevent the drive-away problem. Closing up at night, except for a communication aperture through a security window, would also cut the assault and robbery as well, but I can see that the loss of ready access to the mini-supermarket most refuel stations have become would dent their profits, and hey...it's not the owners sitting down there at O-dark thirty at night is it..?

Restitution · Apr 20, 2017

High Wire said:
If the fuel exiting the nozzle is coming out in a wide spray pattern, it will effectively block off any vent pathway back out from the fill pipe.

Bingo! That's EXACTLY what I was looking for. This explanation makes perfect sense now. That is precisely what must have happened. Thanks. Sam

Restitution · Apr 26, 2017

I want to thank all of you for your valuable advice. The worst is over, the tanks are now out of the boat. The boat and bilge are now clean. Which of you have any suggestions as to where to purchase/have made aluminum or steel tanks specifically for our Californians?

Edelweiss · Apr 26, 2017

Sam said:
I want to thank all of you for your valuable advice. The worst is over, the tanks are now out of the boat. The boat and bilge are now clean. Which of you have any suggestions as to where to purchase/have made aluminum or steel tanks specifically for our Californians?

There is a company in Bellingham, Wa that a lot of people around here use, but that is a long way from Kalama, wa. Must be someone in your area, maybe Vancouver or Portland. If no one on the forum knows, check with some of the Marine boat manufactures in your area. That's how I found Peninsula glass company who builds the replacement aft cabin windows for our Californians LRC .

Restitution · Apr 27, 2017

Tanks now out and a quick trip via kayak to awaiting pickup truck. I may cut bottom off this weekend and inspect at least the good tank. The one pictured is the 'bulging' tank that I accidentally pressurized. Any experience with cutting a diesel tank? I will be using a die grinder. Combustibility? Do I need to fill with water?

Restitution · May 21, 2017

Update: Took out two starboard tanks and floated them to boat ramp and my awaiting truck. Tore out diesel soaked plywood floor and replaced with new marine plywood then painted with oil based paint. All diesel smell is now GONE in the boat. I will replace the outside tank with either aluminum tank $1,400 or steel tank $800? Not sure which yet. The original steel ones lasted 40 years and if I run the numbers, probably makes better sense. The second starboard tank will be replaced with a 100 gallon plastic water tank. This will give us 170 gallons of water total (the old bilge water tank leaks and is abandoned.

So my fuel setup will be outboard port and starboard fuel tanks are the mains and the inboard port tank is a reserve 125 gallons. This gives us 375 gallons of fuel which in my estimation allows for a 500 mile range. I believe this should be sufficient for any passage, to and including the Inside Passage. Any thoughts on this is appreciated.

Restitution · Mar 6, 2019

kev_rm said:
re tank test pressure - 5 psi is around 10 feet of vertical diesel geyser. Did the backflow really get that high?

(10M of water = 1 ATM = 14.7psi & diesel is less dense than water)

Much higher than 10’. The heavy nozzle and hose shot up at least that high past my head. Full force diesel into my face. I was soaked head to toe. It sprayed the entire surroundings. Is guess 15 to 20’

Xsbank · Mar 6, 2019

As everything is apart, give some thought to a much larger filler opening (mine is 4") and installing a fuel chest to capture spillage and provide a second vent. Look at commercial boats... plus a lowest-level tank drain to remove water and contaminants and inspection cut-outs in case you need to clean the tanks in the future.

Freak accident and Fuel tank removal advice 38' Marshall californian

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