Freak accident and Fuel tank removal advice 38' Marshall californian

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
See posts with no answers
Restitution

Restitution

Senior Member
Joined
Mar 12, 2012
Messages
201
Location
USA
Vessel Name
"Restitution"
Vessel Make
38' Californian
Our Californian has twin full size beds in the rear bedroom as most do. Under these beds lie twin 125 gallon fuel tanks per side. I need to remove the tanks on the starboard side. I'm considering cutting the bulkhead to push tank rearward to allow room to lift front of tanks out. Does anybody have any experience with this? Do I need to remove bed framing and night stand between beds?

Question #2...The reason for removal....freak accident:
I was filling up one of the starboard tanks last fall. This tank has always had a burping issue that I never seriously chased down. It doesn't vent well. Historically, I simply full it slowly. On this day, I begin filling at a higher pressure station than what I'm used to. I put the nozzle into the fuel hole. The nozzle has a small lip on it which sat loosely on the inside of the fuel filler. 10 minutes later, I lift up on the nozzle and the nozzle shoots up in the air under very high pressure with copious amounts of diesel spewing all over me, the boat and the docks. The gyser went 20 feet in the air. I have absolutely no idea as to how the nozzle sealed into the filler cap. It was loose when I inserted it there is no I ring, no air pressure was escaping?
I'm at a loss as to The physics of why this occurred. Any similar experiences?

Luckily, the end result is only a leaking and very bulging fuel tank. Yes, somehow this could have ended up worse.
 
Last edited:
Wow! That would have been a bad day. It could have been a disaster.

I'm sure you'll find Your vent line plugged solid. Check the other one as well.
I'd put a bigger inlet pipe/hose on both tanks too.
I don't know how difficult the tanks are to remove but if they are pulled and replaced or modified, it would be worth putting some extra thought into the design.
 
In Australia, all fuel filling pump nozzles, petrol & diesel, have to have their click on 'hands free' removed, so you have to stand there and hold them on the whole time. A bit tedious, but... :)
All the same, I am surprised it seated itself so firmly it could build up enough pressure to rupture a tank. I suspect the tank was on the way out anyway.

However, the more serious question it raises re the pump concerned is why did the rising pressure not close the fuel flow off automatically, as anywhere I have encountered the hands free type of hose delivery system, there is an auto shut-off mechanism specifically to prevent overflow of the tanks.

Clearly the pump you used did not have this, so was an accident of potentially nasty proportions just waiting to happen. Imagine if there had been a source of ignition nearby. Did you take it up with the fuel station manager/owner..? You might be up for compensation for the damage your boat tank sustained..? The tank vent being blocked, if it was, should have just triggered the shut-off sooner, not allowed all that pressure to build up.
 
Last edited:
We refueled recently and were offered fast or standard fill. Service stations("servos" here) have diesel pumps you can reset to "fast fill". Just as well you didn`t opt for "fast" Sam.
 
BruceK said:
We refueled recently and were offered fast or standard fill. Service stations("servos" here) have diesel pumps you can reset to "fast fill". Just as well you didn`t opt for "fast" Sam.
Click to expand...

Yes, but I bet you still had to stand and hold the thing with the trigger squeezed Bruce. It wouldn't have had a hands free clip, I'm sure. Thats the thing that puzzles me. Why did his hands free not release the shut-off when the pressure rose..? :eek: :nonono:
 
Peter B said:
Yes, but I bet you still had to stand and hold the thing with the trigger squeezed Bruce. It wouldn't have had a hands free clip, I'm sure. Thats the thing that puzzles me. Why did his hands free not release the shut-off when the pressure rose..? :eek: :nonono:
Click to expand...
Right on Peter. I`m in the ER, focused on the sight glass, calling out "nearly there, nearly..., STOP!", to the Admiral up top with the filler hose.
 
Sam said:
Our Californian has twin full size beds in the rear bedroom as most do. Under these beds lie twin 125 gallon fuel tanks per side. I need to remove the tanks on the starboard side. I'm considering cutting the bulkhead to push tank rearward to allow room to lift front of tanks out. Does anybody have any experience with this? Do I need to remove bed framing and night stand between beds?

Question #2...The reason for removal....freak accident:
I was filling up one of the starboard tanks last fall. This tank has always had a burping issue that I never seriously chased down. It doesn't vent well. Historically, I simply full it slowly. On this day, I begin filling at a higher pressure station than what I'm used to. I put the nozzle into the fuel hole. The nozzle has a small lip on it which sat loosely on the inside of the fuel filler. 10 minutes later, I lift up on the nozzle and the nozzle shoots up in the air under very high pressure with copious amounts of diesel spewing all over me, the boat and the docks. The gyser went 20 feet in the air. I have absolutely no idea as to how the nozzle sealed into the filler cap. It was loose when I inserted it there is no I ring, no air pressure was escaping?
I'm at a loss as to The physics of why this occurred. Any similar experiences?

Luckily, the end result is only a leaking and very bulging fuel tank. Yes, somehow this could have ended up worse.
Click to expand...

That happened to me when I was fueling at the New Hampshire Fish Dock.

My fuel only went up 10 feet, but gave me quite the shower.
Luckily, there was no boat waiting so I could go take a shower.

Good luck with your replacement.

Richard
 
BruceK said:
We refueled recently and were offered fast or standard fill. Service stations("servos" here) have diesel pumps you can reset to "fast fill". Just as well you didn`t opt for "fast" Sam.
Click to expand...

Peter B said:
Yes, but I bet you still had to stand and hold the thing with the trigger squeezed Bruce. It wouldn't have had a hands free clip, I'm sure. Thats the thing that puzzles me. Why did his hands free not release the shut-off when the pressure rose..? :eek: :nonono:
Click to expand...

I'm still waiting to hear from someone in the US as to why this could even happen in view of the comment above. I can't believe that in such a safety conscious country as the US, they would allow hands-free fuel pumping without a safety tank-full shut-off system. :confused:
 
Many marinas have the hands free removed, many do not.

Just air pressure may not trigger the shutoff....only liquid....at least in my experiences with the nozzels.
 
I have observed in older boats that the screens in the hull vents can and will grow corrosion across the small holes, which restricts their venting. I have also observed older vent lines collapsing in some areas where there is some loop in the line. Those two areas would be my first places to check before pulling the tank.
 
psneeld said:
Many marinas have the hands free removed, many do not.

Just air pressure may not trigger the shutoff....only liquid....at least in my experiences with the nozzels.
Click to expand...

Thanks for answering that. Bit of a worry that pressure can build up to a point that geysers can result, yet still not trigger the shut-off.
 
True, but the fault of the hose and nozzle or the fault of the fuel tank vent?
 
Those are indeed the two things that I need to check.
 
Peter B said:
In Australia, all fuel filling pump nozzles, petrol & diesel, have to have their click on 'hands free' removed, so you have to stand there and hold them on the whole time. A bit tedious, but... :)
Click to expand...

Now I'm not suggesting this mind you, but in US-style nozzles if you carry a tennis ball with you and simply insert it.. Don't know if them same would work on the bottom of the world.
 
When one of my fuel vents was plugged, fuel shot out of the fill hole when attempting to fill regardless of the tank's fuel level. In my case, the fuel vent was plugged with dead bees.

I don't trust automatic cut-offs. I listen to the sound of the fuel entering the tank.
 
Last edited:
Automatic nozzle shut offs only shut off when liquid covers the venturi inlet that goes to the auto shut off valve in the handle. Look in the nozzle before you fill your car next time, and you can see what I am describing. I doubt that many marina fills have auto shut off as you really wouldn't want fuel in an extended filler line anyways and the pump systems are fairly primitive.

If the volume of the liqiud going in exceeds venting capacity, then an overpressure condition can easily exist. 1psi lifts a column of water approximately 28". Wouldn't​ take a lot of pressure to create a geyser with the filler inlet acting as a converging nozzle. If you want to research more, use the search​ terms "tank outbreathing" to find all sorts of calculations.
 
When servicing your vent line there is supposed to be a fine mesh screen there. It's for fire and explosion protection. It often plugs up so people remove it. I bet it was missing before bees were nesting in there.
 
Greg S said:
When servicing your vent line there is supposed to be a fine mesh screen there. It's for fire and explosion protection. It often plugs up so people remove it. I bet it was missing before bees were nesting in there.
Click to expand...

As an original owner, will swear any mesh screen was not removed, if there was such a screen.
 
Sam said:
Our Californian has twin full size beds in the rear bedroom as most do. Under these beds lie twin 125 gallon fuel tanks per side. I need to remove the tanks on the starboard side. I'm considering cutting the bulkhead to push tank rearward to allow room to lift front of tanks out. Does anybody have any experience with this? Do I need to remove bed framing and night stand between beds?
.
Click to expand...

Sam
That is pretty weird alright. Never had it happen.
I'm assuming your tank cradles are just like mine, sounds like it anyway. Remove the matress and the plywood plate beneath it. (Some are bolted down, some are loose laid. Mine are the latter.) Remove the filler and vent lines. Turn off the fuel valving and disconnect the fuel and return lines from the front of the tank. If the tank is empty, you should be able to lift it straight out. Not necessary to remove any of the cabinets. I've had all of mine out several times.
Larry B
 
Just got done exposing tanks today. I could not lift tanks as the bulging tank prevented this. Had to remove both the night stand and wooden frame. I may remove and replace diesel soaked plywood. Another option is cleaning wood with TSP and the several coats of oil based Kilz primer? Your thoughts on this?

I may install a wood floor, as in the salon, now that carpet is out?

In the attached photo, one can clearly see the top of the bulging tank in between the welds for the baffles.
 

Attachments

  • IMG_2713.jpg
    IMG_2713.jpg
    102 KB · Views: 124
  • IMG_2628.jpg
    IMG_2628.jpg
    56.2 KB · Views: 132
Last edited:
Peter,
Interestingly, regular viewing through the fuel sending unit hole indicated a fairly pristine tank with very little rust. Check out the pics I submitted in a following reply. There is a tag on each tank that states "pressure test at no more than 5 PSI. I imagine I exceeded that PSI by a significant extent!
 
It is a 2" inlet already, which should be sufficient. I will assure you that I am replacing my soft and saggy vent hoses!

Thank you.
 
I will be replacing my vent tubes as suggested. They are collapsed at the loop I find. Thank you.
 
Luckily your boat runs on diesel, not petrol.That could have led to a completely different post entirely.

Everyone would have been saying what a nice bloke you were(as in past tense).
 
Andy G said:
Luckily your boat runs on diesel, not petrol.That could have led to a completely different post entirely.

Everyone would have been saying what a nice bloke you were(as in past tense).
Click to expand...
Indeed. And the people said? Amen to that!
 
Sam said:
I may install a wood floor, as in the salon, now that carpet is out?

In the attached photo, one can clearly see the top of the bulging tank in between the welds for the baffles.
Click to expand...

That is bizarre, never seen that before. There are some differences between our boats, mine is a 1976 model. My tanks set a little deeper under the bunks and I have a little more space around them, although the cabinet setup is the same.

Keep in mind the access to your shaft struts is under the inboard tank on each side. So if you ever need to replace a strut or realign one, the inboard tank on either side has to come out to remove the 15 or so nuts and washers holding the strut to the hull.:eek: Whatever you do, be sure those two tanks can be removed easily.

I'll be a lot more careful now refilling my tanks. I notice the marina has two different size nozzles on their pumps. One the size of a standard car service station pump and the other with a larger nozzle like a home heating oil delivery truck for bulk filling a tank or drum. The larger nozzle barely fits the fuel filler and I can see where you could get a seal between them if you forced it into the filler.
 
Edelweiss said:
That is bizarre, never seen that before. There are some differences between our boats, mine is a 1976 model. My tanks set a little deeper under the bunks and I have a little more space around them, although the cabinet setup is the same.

Keep in mind the access to your shaft struts is under the inboard tank on each side. So if you ever need to replace a strut or realign one, the inboard tank on either side has to come out to remove the 15 or so nuts and washers holding the strut to the hull.:eek: Whatever you do, be sure those two tanks can be removed easily.

I'll be a lot more careful now refilling my tanks. I notice the marina has two different size nozzles on their pumps. One the size of a standard car service station pump and the other with a larger nozzle like a home heating oil delivery truck for bulk filling a tank or drum. The larger nozzle barely fits the fuel filler and I can see where you could get a seal between them if you forced it into the filler.
Click to expand...
Note to self then: assure easy access to under tanks. Thanks for the advice. The quandary as to why this happened still exists. The nozzle was indeed the larger type. It slipped right into the fuel filler. It wasn't snug at all when inserting and came out with no effort (I'm sure because of all the pressure). The vent whistle was a great invention. I will get a pair!
 
Didn't you say your vent loops were collapsed? If so you weren't venting the tank. Vent whistles wouldn't have solved your problem. You were pumping a non compressible fluid into the now decreasing ullage space of a compressible fluid. The area of the annulus created between the fuel nozzle and the tank inlet was insufficient to vent the volume of the rate of change of the fill.

The thing is that the vent alone might not have kept​ up with the rate of change. Venting area would be a combination of the vent size and the annulus of the filler neck and nozzle.

If you are going to use a high capacity pump in the future, increase the size of your fuel tank vent.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

R
PT35 fuel tank leaking
Replies
11
Views
1K
sunchaser
S
Max Simmons
Holding Tank Slow Pumping
Replies
15
Views
1K
Bmarler
B
C
Fuel Tank Mystery
Replies
17
Views
1K
Greg QS
Greg QS
RickyD
How many things can go wrong in one day???
Replies
14
Views
3K
Dougcole
Dougcole
Cigatoo
Fuel fill flange leaking water on to top of fuel tank
Replies
10
Views
1K
Jerbro
J

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom