Aed...

...Or defibrillator. Has anyone contemplating adding one to your onboard first aid kit? It seems that I can't look at anything written without seeing a reference to one or the number of people who have popped their clogs because there was no unit available. Costco online sells them but I could get a nice new Standard Horizon AIS for less money. It seems to me the AIS would be more fun but none of us are getting any younger. Opinions? Useful or nonsense?

Xsbank said:

...Or defibrillator. Has anyone contemplating adding one to your onboard first aid kit? It seems that I can't look at anything written without seeing a reference to one or the number of people who have popped their clogs because there was no unit available. Costco online sells them but I could get a nice new Standard Horizon AIS for less money. It seems to me the AIS would be more fun but none of us are getting any younger. Opinions? Useful or nonsense?

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Wifey B: We have AED's and have been trained in their use. We know that often you can have them and everything else but still lose someone due to distance from hospital and/or just those who couldn't have been saved anyway. Still, at least we can try. We also subscribe to a service to get trauma doctors immediately on the line and get their assistance and advice. If we just cruised ICW probably wouldn't although after learning and getting for the boat, we do keep one at home too. 5 minutes is the critical time and ENT's can't always make it in time.

Prices are $1200 to $4000. If it saves a life, priceless. Never having to use it, beyond priceless.

BandB said:

Wifey B: We have AED's and have been trained in their use. We know that often you can have them and everything else but still lose someone due to distance from hospital and/or just those who couldn't have been saved anyway. Still, at least we can try. We also subscribe to a service to get trauma doctors immediately on the line and get their assistance and advice. If we just cruised ICW probably wouldn't although after learning and getting for the boat, we do keep one at home too. 5 minutes is the critical time and ENT's can't always make it in time.

Prices are $1200 to $4000. If it saves a life, priceless. Never having to use it, beyond priceless.

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Can you share a bit more about the phone an Md option? Cost and service provider?

kev_rm said:

Can you share a bit more about the phone an Md option? Cost and service provider?

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Wifey B:

Health Medical and Travel Safety Solutions for yachts

I don't know the price as it's lumped in with other services we get from them and I'm sure itemized somewhere but I don't have easy access to find it right now. I'm in Myrtle Beach playing with Aurora, the most beautiful, wonderful, smart 2 yr. 7 mo. old niece in the history of the world.

I think around the US, the CG could generally direct you and/or you could probably reach ER doctors or you could find a cheaper service, but I don't know. I guess Medaire's name sort of gives away how they started in business. There was a company, Ocean Medical, they acquired about the time we started and before that they'd bought Yacht Lifeline.

We seriously considered one this past fall as we had a significant amount left in our health account. We talked to a doctor friend of ours who asked if we had any history of heart defib. We don't.

So she said it could come in handy for another boater but in all probability would not help us.

There are a lot of misconceptions, mainly driven by the movies, about how and why these are used. So research first. For example, if one of you is having a heart attack, it will not help you.

We both did the Red Cross CPR, AED and first aid course in January. So we know how to use one. But decided against having one.

I AM RET. MD. NOT CARDIOLOGIST so not expert. Have one not guaranteed to make a difference but at least I can give it a try. From what I understand if you bring back a victim the longer term survival often rests on getting to a adequate medical facility in a timely fashion. In some boating situations maybe in others no way but I still think it is worth a try.

menzies said:

We seriously considered one this past fall as we had a significant amount left in our health account. We talked to a doctor friend of ours who asked if we had any history of heart defib. We don't.

So she said it could come in handy for another boater but in all probability would not help us.

There are a lot of misconceptions, mainly driven by the movies, about how and why these are used. So research first. For example, if one of you is having a heart attack, it will not help you.

We both did the Red Cross CPR, AED and first aid course in January. So we know how to use one. But decided against having one.

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Wifey B: So, EKG/ECG, AID, oxygen, meds, and soon you have a lot of equipment and odds still against you. A lot of pressure to work quickly but right. It's scary as heck. I know Paramedics who deal with it daily and ER doctors, but as someone with zero experience having to do it is overwhelming to think about but it may be that sometime we have to. If you're 200-500 nm or more from medical help though you have to try. Fortunately, cuts and scrapes and upset stomachs, and headaches, and allergies, and colds are all we've faced so far.

We had a senior paramedic, now in a teaching position with our state ambulance service, come to a yacht club meeting to give a talk of first aid onboard. He brought a defibrillator to demonstrate, and was very clear that without one the chances of surviving a heart attack plummet. The machine talks you through the process, tells you what to do,when to apply chest compressions, etc, and monitors the patient as part of the process.
I was impressed but thought the expense compared to need was not warranted, I vacillate on that. We considered one for the Club(which has no premises) but figured the prospects of it being in the right place at the right time were not great.
It emerged that our paramedic, who was a Club member, also had a business selling defibrillators. May have made him a little more enthusiastic, but I believe that having one at hand greatly improves survival chances and that the usual prognosis for an out of hospital infarct is not good.

BruceK said:

We had a senior paramedic, now in a teaching position with our state ambulance service, come to a yacht club meeting to give a talk of first aid onboard. He brought a defibrillator to demonstrate, and was very clear that without one the chances of surviving a heart attack plummet. The machine talks you through the process, tells you what to do,when to apply chest compressions, etc, and monitors the patient as part of the process.
I was impressed but thought the expense compared to need was not warranted, I vacillate on that. We considered one for the Club(which has no premises) but figured the prospects of it being in the right place at the right time were not great.
It emerged that our paramedic, who was a Club member, also had a business selling defibrillators. May have made him a little more enthusiastic, but I believe that having one at hand greatly improves survival chances and that the usual prognosis for an out of hospital infarct is not good.

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Fortunately, the prices continue to drop as there are some moderately priced portable units now. However, the total cost of a complete medical kit plus equipment mounts up in a hurry. Each person just has to decide what is right for them. For instance do you have what is needed to handle a severe cut or a major allergic reaction? Most probably more likely.

One other no cost suggestion, except it makes you uncomfortable asking. Do you know the medical history and conditions of those with you? Or do you know how to get quick access to that information?

I'm not a EMT, or a doctor.

I am somebody that has been through mandatory CPR and first aid training every year for a lifetime.

What has been taught to us, by several organizations, teachers, etc... is that you will not start a heart using CPR. You will only attempt to keep oxygenated blood to the brain long enought to get more advanced medical equipment onsite, meaning an AED.

No a AED will not save everyone. Nothing can do that, but an AED is the only hope someone who's heart is not functioning effectively.

If you cannot perform effective CPR until help arrives, or until you use a AED the person will die. If you boat or live in an area that help is further away than your CPR endurance a AED is their only hope for survival.

That said, we do not yet have a AED at the house or on the boat. We are quickly approaching an age where we will be purchasing one though.

In both the medically oriented courses we took, in addition to learning how to do many things, it was made much more apparent to us how quickly situations could turn serious or life threatening and while we can't save everyone, the number of things we can address successfully.

I am admittedly a wimp when it comes to medical things. I don't like the sight of blood or cuts or injuries. I never took any first aid before we moved to FL and got serious about coastal and offshore boating. I did learn a lesson years ago. We had a personnel clerk who people teased about me being her daddy because she came to me with so many things. One day she was discussing the fact that she was epileptic but hadn't had a seizure in years. Still since she was pregnant, she was concerned. I asked what to do if she had one, then read more that night. I was never so glad to have had a conversation as when between 8 and 9 months she had a seizure. I saw her in the hall way with a look I'd never seen and jumped up just in time to catch her and ease her down. I cushioned her and turned her on her side while an ambulance was on the way. I didn't do anything special. However, had she not told me, I would have had no idea what to do. It was funny when she woke and looked up and realized she was in my arms and I was on the floor with her across me. About that time the paramedics came in. She and the baby were fine. They did keep her in the hospital until the baby was born and she had another seizure immediately after giving birth. I look back and realize how that should have led to me taking first aid, but I still didn't do it. I didn't even take CPR until I was 42. Pretty stupid on my part. I'm lucky nothing ever happened around me to make me really regret it.

I wonder why I put it off so long. I may have been scared I couldn't do it. I sure was scared I couldn't spend a shift in ER in training. My wife was shocked when we married and got home to find out I had no first aid supplies in my home other than Band-aids.

I think you guys are all over-thinking this to some extent. You all face much more likely dangers out there on the water than cardiac arrest frankly. To put things in perspective a bit, as a family physician for over 40 years, I have never had to give CPR or use a defib in the surgery - ever. And this topic actually came up on one of our medical forums recently as it happens, and only one Dr out of about 30 that posted had ever had it happen to them. So, by all means learn CPR, but preferably just have a decently stocked medical kit to deal with fish-hooks through various parts, coral cuts and scratches, lacerations when you slip with a scaling knife, sunblock for the skin, etc, and as to buying a defib/AED, I won't be, so why should you..? We had two in the surgery go out of stock/outdated/batteries died etc and neither were used in anger over that time. Just sayin'

Don't you want to die while enjoying what you love? ... A heart attack seems like a better way to depart than cancer. ... My long-range survival strategy is to minimize being in direct sunlight. Phooey on flybridges!

markpierce said:

Don't you want to die while enjoying what you love? ... A heart attack seems like a better way to depart than cancer. ... My long-range survival strategy is to minimize being in direct sunlight. Phooey on flybridges!

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We have flybridges and we're never in direct sunlight and we alway use a lot of suntan lotion.

BandB said:

We have flybridges and we're never in direct sunlight and we alway use a lot of suntan lotion.

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Water is a great reflector. The sun's rays coming off the water will get you sidewise even if you have an overhead cover! ... Anyone wonder about the chemicals in suntan lotion? aaaahhh!

Peter B said:

So, by all means learn CPR, but preferably just have a decently stocked medical kit to deal with fish-hooks through various parts, coral cuts and scratches, lacerations when you slip with a scaling knife, sunblock for the skin, etc, and as to buying a defib/AED, I won't be, so why should you..? We had two in the surgery go out of stock/outdated/batteries died etc and neither were used in anger over that time. Just sayin'

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While I do believe the odds are very much against ever using an AED, I will continue to carry one just on that off chance it is needed. I don't doubt your numbers in your experience, but

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14625114

The NIH conducted a survey of 2683 businesses and public facilities and 145 homes with AED's for at least 12 months. They asked how many had responded with it to a suspected cardiac arrest, whether they then used it or not. 13% of the businesses and 5% of the homes had done so. Also, in the four cases where a lay responder had actually used it, all four patients survived to the hospital. Two were known to have subsequently been discharged. On the basis of even a 5% chance of using it, I'll continue to have one.

CONCLUSIONS:
This survey demonstrates that AEDs purchased by businesses and homes were frequently taken to suspected cardiac arrests. Lay responders were able to successfully use the AEDs in emergency situations. Further, there were no reports of harm or injury to the operators, bystanders or patients from lay responder use of the AEDs.​

If I only need it once in my lifetime, I will feel very happy to have it. If I never use it, I will feel very happy I never needed it.

markpierce said:

Water is a great reflector. The sun's rays coming off the water will get you sidewise even if you have an overhead cover! ... Anyone wonder about the chemicals in suntan lotion? aaaahhh!

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I fully understand your reasons for exceptional aversion to any risk of sun and in your same situation, I would probably be just the same. Yes, I wonder about the chemicals in everything and I wonder about even the organics and natural ingredients. We take what we feel are reasonable precautions in our circumstances. Obviously, we can't say whether they will turn out to have been adequate. We do very much focus on no overexposure, no sunburn. Your warnings are definitely listened to and that's how we attempt to consider them.

Doesn't tanning equal skin damage? I recall seeing once-beautiful women with well-tanned alligator skin.

My worse sunburn occurred while floating on an innertube on an overcast day, some 55 years ago.

ksanders said:

. If you boat or live in an area that help is further away than your CPR endurance a AED is their only hope for survival.

.

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Don't under-estimate how hard it is to keep up CPR for an extended time. Between the physical work, stress and adrenaline...it is unbelievably exhausting. I've been lucking in that the times I've had to do it for an extended period it was always 2-man CPR, but it was still very fatiguing. 1-man CPR for even a short period is harder than you might think.

Benthic2 said:

Don't under-estimate how hard it is to keep up CPR for an extended time. Between the physical work, stress and adrenaline...it is unbelievably exhausting. I've been lucking in that the times I've had to do it for an extended period it was always 2-man CPR, but it was still very fatiguing. 1-man CPR for even a short period is harder than you might think.

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Above is an excellent point.
I'm 6ft and athletic...started CPR on a stranger that had collapsed at our marina. Fortunately had relief from a fellow boater before life guards arrived w ADD.
Although they hooked up ADD it did not fire as it sensed the conditions were not applicable???
METs arrived and took over CPR for transport to hospital.
It's hard work in a tense situation...but it's the best one can do.
In this case the patient didn't make it...had many complicating health issues.
Don't underestimate the difficulty...but absolutely get trained and be ready to use CPR...dont be afraid to ask for relief.

I don't see the need for an AED. The chance of requiring one seems very minimal to me.

I prefer to spend the money and effort on staying well trained and equipped for dealing with wounds, broken bones, burns, etc.

I read through all the posts and not sure if I just missed it.

As far as I know, not all heart attacks can be fixed by defibbing.

Also, even with the best CPR being given, usually past about 4-5 minutes and the patients normal life and surviveability dwindles fast.

I always say boating is like being in the wilderness. I have seen boat accidents in sight of a very populated shore take more than a half hour to get more than first aid to victims.

The statement about more things to worry about rings true to me....but I still think they are a great tool if you have the money and crew to properly use one.

One thing many boaters forget.....short handed crews have to juggle multiple jobs during emergencies. Handling the boat, communicating the distress and tending to the emergency. I don't care how much training one has been through...I have seen so many freeze up or slow down or not multitask that even having an AED on board might only be a comfort in the long run.

psneeld said:

I read through all the posts and not sure if I just missed it.

As far as I know, not all heart attacks can be fixed by defibbing.

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Post # 6.

Sorry missed it, probably from jumping over ads that seem to be getting thicker on the mobile version.

Not sure why you say it wouldn't help in the right situation for a two man crew unless you are saying the division of crew duties gets complicated.

Or in that you have no history of defibrillator?

Out of my specialty, but can't you developed one or have it trauma or chemically induced?

A lot of the discussion is focused on heart attacks, I guess because we are all a bunch of old farts.

But asking those with actual medical experience, i.e. not me, wouldn't a drowning victim be a perfect candidate for an AED? They are presumably otherwise healthy, but heart has stopped due to drowning. CPR buys time, but without a jump start, the person is toast. Is this medically real/correct? Because if it is, it seems like a more likely situation for us boaters vs a heart attack, and perhaps a compelling reason to carry an AED?.

markpierce said:

Doesn't tanning equal skin damage? I recall seeing once-beautiful women with well-tanned alligator skin.

My worse sunburn occurred while floating on an innertube on an overcast day, some 55 years ago.

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Yes, tanning may well damage skin and sunburn is easy on days one wouldn't suspect it. Often the worse sunburns in NC were the first decent spring day when temperatures were still not all that warm. My last sunburn was our first trip together for the week from Christmas to New Years in Myrtle Beach. It wasn't bad, but my girl friend, now wife, promised it would never happen again as she put Solarcaine on me that night. It hasn't. I've never seen her burned and our amounts of tan are very moderate. Biggest risks we face are on tennis courts and our infrequent golfing. Both require a good bit of protection.

Taking care of skin in all ways is important and getting medical treatment at the first sign of a problem is as well.

I do recommend all look at skincancer.org. However, there's a little statement in the other direction as to chemicals found here. Is Sunscreen Dangerous? 4 Sun Protection Do's and Don'ts | Cancer | US News

Always the question of whether what we believe is safe today, will be proven to be so tomorrow.

While off the track of AED's, warnings regarding sun exposure are always good reminders.

We do not have an AED... we have 2 nice taser... same effect, 10% price..
For stubborn cases, I have a .40 ACP...
If I cannot resuscitate you, I can certify your dead in a very accurate way...

Yes - we do.
Adult and pediatric first aid and CPR classes every two years with AED and Epi Pen training. Since we have them at work we added both the AED and Epi Pens when cruising on the boat.

twistedtree said:

But asking those with actual medical experience, i.e. not me, wouldn't a drowning victim be a perfect candidate for an AED? .

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Yes.