Using household plumbing on a boat

psneeld said:

Household toilets are great if you have an unlimited water supply and a treatment device...or a huge holding tank. I have neither so I designed a system that works for me and my boat....each boat is a bit different and used differently, so one system doesn't necessarily have to fit all.

What is hard for some or for them to understand isn't necessarily hard for others.

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I cannot recommend a househole toilet to substitute for a marine toilet. The marine toilets that I am familiar with macerate the waste in some manner including those manual jobs. I can just visualize a large gun boat snaking its way to a holding tank

My experience with PVC waste lines! I have used PVC pipe now for over 30 years without problems. First in my 30' Hunter sailboat and 10 years now in my Silverton 40 which eliminated all stench.

Something for others to consider if they venture into PVC is how to make 90 corners because PVC fittings are not as mechanically robust as is the pipe. I used PVC sweeps normally used for electrical wiring. Sure, they are not allowed by the plumbing code but who cares, boats are not in the plumbing code either. The beauty of electrical sweeps is they avoid sharp corners that a PVC elbow will introduce even with twin 45's to make a 90 turn.

Just thought I would share my experience so take it as you wish.

Foggy

Cottontop said:

A Raritan Marine Elegance it will probably be, if I give up on household units.

Are you familiar with the Headhunter Bravo toilet? Uses some different technology that they don't quite explain, but they have a video of it flushing/macerating panty hose and keys.

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If you can improve on a RARITAN ELEGANCE please share the info. EXCELLENT USA made product.

Why Frankenstein a pvc system together with electrical sweeps when pvc dwv fittings are readily available?

http://m.lowes.com/pl/PVC-dwv-fittings-DWV-pipe-fittings-Pipe-fittings-Plumbing/4294765362

CPseudonym said:

Why Frankenstein a pvc system together with electrical sweeps when pvc dwv fittings are readily available?

Shop PVC DWV Fittings at Lowes.com

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Used one of these on my master head...works good, lasts long time....

David Kimmel said:

If you can improve on a RARITAN ELEGANCE please share the info. EXCELLENT USA made product.

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Well, I won't know for sure until the OP installs some Flushmates, and reports.

But I must caution you about seeking advice from me, about anything.

I'm certainly going to leave advice about marine toilets to Peggie (whose name I have been spelling wrong, apologies).

CPseudonym said:

Why Frankenstein a pvc system together with electrical sweeps when pvc dwv fittings are readily available?

Shop PVC DWV Fittings at Lowes.com

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FOR A LOT OF REASONS!! The mechanical strength of elbows, Ts, Ys and other PVC fittings is the weak link in a PVC pipe system. This was discussed in numerous posts in the Cruiser's forum especially by Sailor Girl, a technical poster at that web site.

Next an electrical sweep has a larger bend radius that lessens flow resistance around corners. Further the sweeps are made with grade 40 PVC which has high mechanical strength.

But hey--- do as you wish, maybe in your case you should stick with hoses.

I'll take my 30+ years hands on experience to your "read about it somewhere" any day.

If properly supported, a non or low pressure system doesn't exactly need high strength anything.

Peggy Hall hit it right on the head in post #25 of this thread:

"But EVERYTHING on a boat is a component in a system..and anything done (or wasn't done that should have been) to ANY component in any system impacts the entire system. Away from the dock, a boat is totally reliant it's own systems...The boat's electrical systems provide the power...the boat's fresh water system provides all the water. The toilet is a component in a system that may or may not need both, or may use a pump--integral or external--to bring in the water it needs. And toilet waste management is a part of that system. "

So consider that PVC piping is designed for building applications and not boats, there should be no hesitation to use the best of PVC whether it originated in a building's plumbing or electrical systems. And yes indeed, a properly supported non or low pressure system may not require some usage of high strength components ALTHOUGH the addition of those higher strength components will enhance a system's ability to withstand shock and vibration.

My 35+ years of boat experience gave proof that manufacturers often put mechanical support of anything last in their product design. Now of course my experience was not in $500K+ boats but rather in the budget boats that most of us relate to. The point is that even a modification of a Pride and Joy will most likely lack so called "properly supported" anything.

So to each his own as witnessed by the many who will replace stinky hoses with new hoses that eventually be stinky hoses. The many will not even consider PVC pipes never mind durable elbows.

Well after long deliberation I've decided to go with household toilets. Found a great grinder pump that comes pre installed in a 40 gallon poly tank for $450. Founds some home cheepo duel flush toilets for a hundi a piece and I am fixen to be off to the races. All the misspellings were on purpose due to the route I decided to take.

Many commercial vessels because of their size run standard household plumbing ....some have modified figures while others don't bother.

Had to compare the average 30 footer and it's requirements to a 60 footer.

Layout is everything...it may be a very simple design...but it could get complex depending on distances and deck levels.

I think you will find that the household toilets use lot lot more water. Your holding tank will fill in just a few days.

tadhana said:

I think you will find that the household toilets use lot lot more water. Your holding tank will fill in just a few days.

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Ah yes, but here in the driest continent on earth we have ways around that - like bricks in the cistern to reduce the volume back in the old days when the volume was not adjustable. Modern loos you can just turn a thingamy and reduce the flush volume anyway.

40 flushes, probably right, few days. 1 hp grinder pump. I'll try to attach a video
https://youtu.be/qEI8OSxHMx0
How long do people generally haul the holding tank before dumping overboard?

swampu said:

Well after long deliberation I've decided to go with household toilets. Found a great grinder pump that comes pre installed in a 40 gallon poly tank for $450. Founds some home cheepo duel flush toilets for a hundi a piece and I am fixen to be off to the races. All the misspellings were on purpose due to the route I decided to take.

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Dude, I am really very proud of you!

I figured you would like the news

swampu said:

How long do people generally haul the holding tank before dumping overboard?

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Can't dump overboard, here.

Ideally until the tank is about 2/3rds full... then we pump out. Sometimes we miss that target and fill it more before pump-out...

-Chris

HopCar said:

I bet Peggie isn't familiar with Sloan and Zurn but every guy on this forum is.

The reason is urinals. Guys standing in front of a urinal have nothing better to do than read the top of the flush valve.

Anybody memorized the patent number of the Sloan Royal yet?

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Lol.

PEX is great for fresh water lines. That's what boat manufacturers are using in most new boats. It's been around long enough to be tested. My year 2000 boat uses PEX and it's trouble free.

A household toilet in a boat is not a good idea. Think about it; if a household toilet worked well on boats, that's what the manufacturers would be using, not more expensive marine toilets.

A few questions for those who are using PVC in your boat instead of flexible hose for your toilet waste. (1) How does the PVC stand up to vibration? (2) Does it allow for odor penetration better than sanitary hose? (3) is your system set up so that you can change out parts that need to be replaced.

I am not using PVC for my waste system. It's a short run with a lot of bends so hose works better. That said:


1) PVC doesn't like a lot of vibration and it becomes brittle in cold weather. It can also sag in hot conditions. That's something to think about. It should be fine if properly supported and no stress is placed upon it.


2) PVC will never become permeated and will never let odor out. It's commonly used in home waste plumbing with no odor issues.


3) I don't have a system so I can't speak directly to that. You won't be able to make your waste system entirely of PVC, you will need hose at the toilet and possibly some other places. Unless it is physically damaged somehow, the PVC pipe itself should outlive the boat. Hoses will need to be replaced eventually so you should design the system with that in mind.

I have always used white, FDA approved, 5/8" ID garden hose to plumb my boats. I would not want to wrestle with something as stiff as pex on a boat. That said, my hot water has always been only "engine room hot" so I don't know how that hose reacts to really hot water.

On lager commercial craft....often they are used because of large water and holding capability and low maintenance.

Sounds like a fit for Swampu....but not necessarily for smaller, filled to the brim vessels with only pleasure craft roots.

Brooksie said:

I have always used white, FDA approved, 5/8" ID garden hose to plumb my boats. I would not want to wrestle with something as stiff as pex on a boat. That said, my hot water has always been only "engine room hot" so I don't know how that hose reacts to really hot water.

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Actually there is a pretty flexible pex....

Plus sometimes when replumbing a boat....stiff is not a bad thing when trying to get the hose to hit a small diameter hole many feet away from where you are snaking it...sure you can do it with something stiff then pull soft hose through...but with pex...it's done.

Pex is also so much thicker and abrasion resistant compared to garden hose, plus cheaper....

I see your point, but I have to say reply bing my boat with pex was one of the easier jobs of an almost total rebuild.

Brooksie said:

I have always used white, FDA approved, 5/8" ID garden hose to plumb my boats. I would not want to wrestle with something as stiff as pex on a boat. That said, my hot water has always been only "engine room hot" so I don't know how that hose reacts to really hot water.

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The question is, how many times would you have to replace the fresh water plumbing on your boat? The answer is, never if you do it the right way the first time. PEX is not difficult to work with and you can make bends or buy angled fittings. PEX would need a lot less support than garden hose.

If I was considering buying a boat and it had garden hose for plumbing, I would deduct the cost of redoing it correctly from any offer I might make. Also, I would be concerned over any other shortcuts that might have been made.

mramoo said:

A few questions for those who are using PVC in your boat instead of flexible hose for your toilet waste. (1) How does the PVC stand up to vibration? (2) Does it allow for odor penetration better than sanitary hose? (3) is your system set up so that you can change out parts that need to be replaced.

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I plan to use PVC for toilet waste in my boat. I have done a little research and found there are usually two types of schedule 40 PVC connections available from your local hardware store, the type for drains and the type for pressurized lines.
Both use the same PVC pipe, but I will be using the pressurized type connectors as it's glue contact surface area is almost twice that of the drain type from what I have seen.
I plan to support it well and use very short sections of hose to allow for parts change out.
I will have about a 6 foot section under my holding tank that will virtually always contain waste. This was my main reason for using PVC pipe, due to it's non permeation characteristics.

A household toilet in a boat is not a good idea.

They're on cruise ships.

Think about it; if a household toilet worked well on boats, that's what the manufacturers would be using, not more expensive marine toilets.

You obviously haven't priced household toilets recently. Like marine toilets, you get what you pay for.

I bet Peggie isn't familiar with Sloan and Zurn

You'd lose, Hop. Not much demand for their commercial flush valves in marine sanitation systems, though.

I bought pair of nice Kohler household toilets about a year ago for under $200 each. They work well use less water than some others and have "soft closing" seats. No banging. Also they are ADA height so easy to sit and get up.


Now if you want the ones that rinse and dry your butt, you'll have to spend a bit more.

Cottontop said:

How to install a toilet in your house (never actually had to do this, because they are maintenance free and last forever):

1. Buy toilet
2. Put the wax seal down, more or less centered around the hole in the floor.
3. Set the toilet down over the wax seal and the two bolts sticking up out of the floor (all houses come with these bolts sticking up). This is the hardest part of the job, because the toilet is heavy, and you don't like having your face near the toilet, even if it's new.
4. Tighten the bolts.
5. Attach the inlet water line.
6. Open the inlet water line valve.
7. Surf the web for a while, cursing periodically to convince the wife it's a hard job.
.............

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Having done this a few times, I can tell you that you've left out a few steps. Try it yourself and you'll see what I mean.