SS El Faro Disaster

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Just sounds awful! Nightmare scenario. Mostly human error judging from the transcripts. All of his deck officers advised changing course. My dad used to say most of the brave Captains he knew were dead.
 
The final USCG hearing was scheduled for Feb 6-Feb 17. That would conclude the fact finding and then leave just the task of writing the opinion and final documents.
 
Old information

60 minutes had a great piece on it tonight. I my own words it looked like this is what happened as a synopsis. Yes I am leaving out some details.

The Captain was relying on a pictorial weather depiction info & what he was getting however it was 6 hours old. Old info lead him to make wrong decisions.

The deck officers had much more up to date info. But it was all TEXT style. They kept asking Capt. to take action.

Captain was advised by third officer that he recommended to change courser.

Captain refused.

Officers were left with choice. They would not defy captain orders & chain of command.
Because if they did defy & change course & survived then they would end their career.
But if stayed on course chance they would die. But just maybe they would survive.
No one knew the future for sure.


Second mate e-mails mother to say good by as she believed the end was near, yet still did not over rule the captain & all died as result.

The Capt. went to bed & slept 8 hours, no one wanted to defy captains orders.

By the time captain came back up to bridge their fait was pretty well sealed.

They were dead a few hours later.

Boat took on water & started to list badly.

Then engine started sucking air when oil moved away from the oil pick ups of the engine lubrication pumps.

Engine shut it self down, they were still taking on water due to couple reasons - burst pipe & bad door.


All while in the middle of a Hurricane.

Abandon ship order given to late.


The weather so bad not survivable in a life raft either in a hurricane of that intensity.

Definitely the captains fault.

78puget-trawler dad's was correct -- "most of the brave Captains he knew were dead"

So sad.

M.
 
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Sad.

This is as much about Crew Management as weather.

Also a primary cause of plane crashes.
 
While what is being said in this thread does sum up much of the information reasonably well, it also, in my opinion, as did the 60 minute show, misses the culpability of TOTE.

I have three preliminary thoughts, awaiting further information from the USCG and the NTSB.

1. The Captain acted irresponsibly and took the situation much too lightly.
2. TOTE failed to take their responsibility to captain and crew as seriously as needed. Allowed them to be put in a life threatening situation.
3. I know some with military backgrounds may disagree with this statement I'm about to make. I find it sad when we've had it so ingrained as to line of responsibility and following orders that we will continue to do so even when it costs us or others their lives and when we know it's not the smart thing to do. There was a collective belief on board that the route needed to be changed. I believe there comes a time that you make it clear to a captain that you are going to change course, whether he wants to or not. There is a difference between following orders and blindly following the orders of a madman. The only downside in changing to a safer route was reaching the destination later. There was a captain who refused to listen to others.

Too many similarities between this and Bounty. Owner not fulfilling their obligations. Captain ignoring all reason. Crew being led to their deaths.
 
Actually, while I believe the military does still keep the "following orders" as an important concept...it was a leader in operational risk management for just this reason....

I believe the Merchant Marine has followed suit with bridge coordination training.

Who knows why the bridge crew didn't do more?...I don't remember anyone pointing out that this captain was a tyrant. Usually if the crew thought the captain was going to kill them all, you would have heard much stronger indications from the crew.

We lost a main motor on a USCG Icebreaker and the captain decided to press on with the mission. While in no immediate danger....punching to within 400 miles of the North Pole through enough ice on one shaft was considered all but insane by many aboard. If there was a bridge recorder on that bridge....holy cow what would have been recorded.....:eek:

There are people pointing out comments and emails that don't really mean a thing....they can be read/understood in different ways.

Till fire is singeing your eyebrows off, till water is up to your neck, till you are plummeting towards the ground....etc.... understanding someone elses fears are really tough.

I have no idea if simply altering course would have been the best idea even with the text updates.... Trying to beat the storm by crossing in front of it was a fatal gamble...but ultimately could have been better than getting caught cutting through the islands possibly...that would be a call for someone who knew that boat better than I.
 
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I'm not sure what TOTE is? The aviation community has embraced crew resource management for many years. It has worked well and impressed upon all that the Captain may or may not have all the info needed for a correct decision. The captain should gather all info and concerns and take those into account before he makes his decision.

The military has done the same with ORM. We usually did that in mission planning. After take off it was more acting responsibly with wrt what the mission was.
 
Did the El Faro use the 'ship prefix' "SS"?
 
This is what happens when you are threatened with your job and career.....

If you don't know what TOTE is then you defiantly don't have any idea what's going on and therefore shouldn't form an opinion.... yet.
 
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SaltyDawg86 said:
This is what happens when you are threatened with your job and career.....

If you don't know what TOTE is then you defiantly don't have any idea what's going on and therefore shouldn't form an opinion.... yet.
Click to expand...

TOTE is the owner of the boat. The company planning and scheduling this trip.
 
Ship Management

TOTE Services is a leading U.S.-based ship management company, fully certified to comply with the Safety, Quality, and Environmental requirements of the ABS Guide for Marine Health, Safety, Quality, Environmental, and Energy Management. Providing uncompromised service to affiliated ship owners, U.S. Government, domestic and international third-party ship owners.
Since 1975, TOTE Services has provided full technical management and partial management/crewing services for nearly one-hundred vessels of various sizes and configurations. Our focus is on safety, environmentally sound operations, high quality maintenance programs and achieving customer goals. Services are tailored to the vessel and the needs of the client, from special projects to full technical management.

Not sure that it is a whole lot different than any large company where the supervisor of a particular operation is completely in command and responsible....yet under the thumb of an immediate supervisor.

I think that is true in many government agencies, business and even the military....not hard to figure out....the airlines were one of the major examples of keep a schedule to keep your job....till that didn't work so well....
 
Yes, she was a steam ship, hints the SS. The boiler failure was talked about in some depth.
 
I saw the 60 Minutes piece. And am glad I didn't have to listen to the black box recording. It seemed to be still adversely affecting the guy they were interviewing.
 
psneeld said:
Ship Management

TOTE Services is a leading U.S.-based ship management company, fully certified to comply with the Safety, Quality, and Environmental requirements of the ABS Guide for Marine Health, Safety, Quality, Environmental, and Energy Management. Providing uncompromised service to affiliated ship owners, U.S. Government, domestic and international third-party ship owners.
Since 1975, TOTE Services has provided full technical management and partial management/crewing services for nearly one-hundred vessels of various sizes and configurations. Our focus is on safety, environmentally sound operations, high quality maintenance programs and achieving customer goals. Services are tailored to the vessel and the needs of the client, from special projects to full technical management.

Not sure that it is a whole lot different than any large company where the supervisor of a particular operation is completely in command and responsible....yet under the thumb of an immediate supervisor.

I think that is true in many government agencies, business and even the military....not hard to figure out....the airlines were one of the major examples of keep a schedule to keep your job....till that didn't work so well....
Click to expand...



Thanks for helping to find that. Love the camaraderie in here so this newbie can learn from others!
 
SaltyDawg86 said:
That's correct, though I'm not sure why you think that was aimed at you.
Click to expand...

I didn't think it was aimed at me, but I was answering for the person who asked. You know, the one you said "If you don't know what TOTE is then you defiantly don't have any idea what's going on and therefore shouldn't form an opinion.... yet" too. I was just giving them the information.
 
BaltimoreLurker said:
I saw the 60 Minutes piece. And am glad I didn't have to listen to the black box recording. It seemed to be still adversely affecting the guy they were interviewing.
Click to expand...

I read the entire transcript and that was extremely difficult. A combination of terrible sadness and anger. The point that got me worse was when the Captain made the comment that it was just like any day in Alaska.

I've also read all the testimony published to date. Difficult reading too. There were just so many things wrong all the way and to see the disregard for safety of the crew by both the Captain and by TOTE appalls me.

The officials of TOTE should have to listen to the words of those who were saying they were going to die over and over, until they are willing to admit that they could have and should have prevented the deaths.
 
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It seems easy to blame the Captain since he sailed into a hurricane, but about a half hour before he gives the order to abandon ship, he says the seas were 10-12 feet. I would think that's manageable in an 800 foot vessel. The 2 things that did the ship in were an open hatch letting in water, and the fact that no one noticed that water was coming in until it was too late, and I'm not sure if you can blame those on the Captain.
 
for those of you with commercial shipping experience: If a cargo ship had bow and stern thrusters would they be enough to keep your bow into the wind if you lost your main engine ?
 
SaltyDawg86 said:
This is what happens when you are threatened with your job and career.....

If you don't know what TOTE is then you defiantly don't have any idea what's going on and therefore shouldn't form an opinion.... yet.
Click to expand...


Nice comment. I didn't form an opinion or state one. Just possibly a comparison of Crew Resource Management.
 
Shrew said:
You are pleasure to communicate with.
Click to expand...

Yea well I'm a merchant sailor who's been there and I can't stand the arm chair QBs who "would have done it like this or that"

As far as the thrusters go, I don't believe they would have done any good in that situation. I'm sure the capt felt that way too since he didn't try to use them.
 
Plane Nauti said:
Nice comment. I didn't form an opinion or state one. Just possibly a comparison of Crew Resource Management.
Click to expand...

I'd ignore him. All 4 'contributions' to this thread have been snarky. I'd like to assume he's having a bad day.
 
Salty Dawg
They mentioned seas "as high as 30 feet". In itself would you say that 30 foot seas are pretty doable for a ship that type / size?
 
I can understand his point of view....but no matter what marine profession you are/were in.....you takes your licks by the amateurs here on TF and just try to pass along relevant truths...


I wish I had a dollar for every cheap shot at the USCG that has been made....
 
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