Guns onboard

City people? Really? Perhaps you should use a tad smaller of brush to paint people with. It's not "city people" it's the sons and daughters of over-protective, sheltering parents you seem to have a beef with. Parents that don't let kids play Dodgeball or play cops and robbers or just send them out to play with a stick and crushed Coke can. Just plop the kid in front of a Wii and let the bowl or play Guitar Hero.

I am not surprised that after the events of September 11, 2001 that box cutters were not pulled off the shelves.

-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Friday 26th of February 2010 01:03:25 PM

Carrying a shotgun for bear protection...

First, I'll admit that I have not directly encountered bear in the bush, although I have experienced fresh tracks over mine once when returning to my dinghy. I guess I can understand the deterrence of a loud blast, but is this really an effective weapon against a charge?

True story; I once ran a geological exploration unit, and was approached by a young geologist with a short barrel shotgun and a plan for minerals exploration in the Alaskan bush. When I asked how he planned on using the weapon against a surprise charge, he answered in all seriousness, that he would wait until he could put the barrel in the bear's mouth and blow its brains out. I relieved the lad of both the weapon and the Alaskan plan.

Wasn't it Australia that reciently outlawed all guns?

I heard that violent crime went up.

A law abiding citizen with a gun will never hurt anybody with that gun.
A gun is like a knife, A tool.
Canada claims to be a free country. Yet they have so many laws restricting personal freedom.
Don't they trust each other? Come on. A permit to cary a knife. Are they going to out law fists. There are some people who like to break things and hurt people. How do you protect yourself. Call the RCMP to come and take a report after the incident. Every man in Switzerland is required to have a firearm. A peacfull society. They have chocolate , banks and guns.

SD

oldfishboat wrote:

Marin be carefull , some will have zero issue, some will make it like you are the worst person on the planet. Ya a big halibit can and will given the chance screw up a great fishing trip. But till ya seen that up close and personal your only thoughts on fire arms be ?

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Well, the gun thing really belongs in OTDE but since it started here and is sort of related to boats I will magnify the error by answering your question here.

In Alaska a (legal) firearm is part of the required survival equipment list for flights into remote country.* In BC it was not required but it was recommended.* I don't know if Canada's position has changed on that or not.* But I believe a person's attitude toward firearms will be based on what they picked up during their "formative" years.* Not unlike your young friends from the city who weren't sure what to make of an axe.

I have no fascination for firearms, and I have no inherent fear of them.* I don't regard them as dangerous, or any more dangerous than a lawn mower or a chain saw.* I certainly have no problem with people owning them if they want to.* I attribute my ambivalent attitude toward them to my exposure to them at a fairly early age.* I grew up in Hawaii and at that time ROTC was required for all sophomore and junior boys in high school.* Our "officers" were seniors and that was voluntary.* Every public high school in the state, and the larger private schools like Punahou and Kamehameha had this same curriculum.* The only way to get out of it was with a doctor's letter saying you were physically unable to participate.

Each boy was assigned an M1 Garand rifle for the school year. * At my high school they were kept in an armory room under the bleachers at the football field. The firing pins had been removed but otherwise it was a regular issue rifle.* It was our responsibility to keep our assigned rifle in perfect condition for the year.* Every Wednesday we wore our uniforms to school and had drill after school for an hour.* We learned the manual of arms, we learned how to march and maneuver, and so on.* During the week we had ROTC class and PE on alternate days.

Viet Nam was cranking up and and Hawaii was a very "military" state.* At that time, the number one driver of the state's economy was the military. The Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force had huge and very active bases all over the island of Oahu and being in the military was a respected profession in the eyes of the civilian residents of the state, unlike what was going on with regards to Viet Nam on the mainland.*

The number two source of income for the state was agriculture (sugar and pineapple), and number three was tourism.* Obviously it's not the same today.

Our ROTC classes were taught by regular Army sergeants.* We learned to strip and reassemble our M1s, its Viet Nam replacement, the M14, the M60 machine gun, and the Colt 45.* And after we learned to do al this with the lights on, we then had to learn to do it all blindfolded.* And if anyone here has ever stripped down and reassembled an M1 Garand, you can imagine how lethal it could be in a roomful of boys doing this in the dark.

We had map reading lessons and learned---- we're high school kids, remember--- how to determine coordinates for artillery strikes.* We learned first aid.* We had rifle and pistol practice on a range behind the football stadium.* A couple of times a year there were drill and skill competitions in Honolulu Stadium between all the ROTC brigades from the high schools.

The result of all this was at least one generation of kids in Hawaii who regarded guns no differently than a hammer.** It was a tool to be used when required.* Otherwise, we didn't think about them at all.* Each firearm I own was acquired to do a specific thing, primarily different kinds of hunting---- deer, moose, and (in Hawaii) boar.* I only have one "collector" gun, a very rare Winchester model from 1895, but I actually acquired that for hunting, too.

I have no need for a semi-automatic, "assault" weapons so I don't have any.* I have no fascination for them at all, perhaps because of my exposure to the military aspect of weaponry at an early age.* I personally believe owning one as a civilian is pointless other than the fact that for a lot of guys they are effective (apparently) penis-magnifiers.* I also believe legislation to ban them is also pointless although if laws were passed banning private ownership of assault-type weapons I wouldn't care.

So I personally have no issue with a person who desires to have a gun on board their boat, particularly someone who boats in remote areas where survival or protection could become part of the boating experience fairly quickly.* I doubt we'd be concerned about bears and whatnot if we were boating in California where most boaters cruise around San Francisco Bay and up the Sacramento River or go out to Catalina and back.

I do think, as you point out, that it's important to judge your surroundings, including the people, when it comes to firearms.* I can't imagine anyone getting upset at the sight of our shotgun on a dock in Petersburg or at a lake up in the Carriboo* in BC.* But I wouldn't go waving it around at the dock at Roche Harbor in the San Juans or in Sidney or Nanaimo.



*

Red ,
Why?
I have been charged by an angry sow with cubs. A report From my sawed off mosberg pump sure made the bear stop and take a second look.
She went away.

Marin,
Assult rifels. We in America have the 2nd ammendment to protect ourself from our government. Possie comantadis. I don't want to go up against the best armed fighting force in the world with a black powder blunderbuss.

-- Edited by skipperdude on Friday 26th of February 2010 02:18:59 PM

RED wrote:

Carrying a shotgun for bear protection...but is this really an effective weapon against a charge?

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Absolutely and I am able to write this because it works.* In fact, the only effective weapon against a charging bear, particularly a big breed like a brown, is a 12-gauge shotgun (a 10-gauge would be even better but they are not very common and I don't know if there are high-power slugs made for them).

The following is what we were taught by people we know who encounter bears on a regular basis, and I have once proved it myself.* This is NOT, repeat NOT, an excuse to blow away a bear just because you can. * They are magnificent animals if you encounter them in the wild and they have as much right to live their lives as we do ours.* However, I'm not going to trade mine for the bear's.* This is also NOT an excuse to not try every other alternative to deter the bear's charge.* It is only a last line of defense when there is no option left.

One of the most effective bear deterrents is a compressed gas boat horn, the kind you can buy at West Marine.* We carry these on the boat and in the plane for this purpose and beep them off periodically when we're walking in bear country.* But if all deterrents fail and the bear charges, you wait (if you can make yourself do it) until the bear is perhaps 50 feet from you, you aim for the chest (not the head) and start firing the shotgun.* And you do not stop until the gun is empty, which is one reason the Savage 69RXL was so prized by the Fish & Game folks and back country pilots I talked to because of its seven shot magazine.

I was told that the reason a rifle is pretty much worthless in this situation is that when a bear finally charges, it is so hopped up on adrenaline that a shot that would kill it if it was just walking along will have no immediate effect.* But even more important than that is the fact that a charging bear has a tremendous amount of momentum. The shotgun slugs at very close range have tremendous stopping power, far more than even a .44 magnum handgun, which is why we were told that if you choose a handgun as a bear defense weapon the only time it will work is if you can jam it in the bear's mouth to hold its jaws open so it can't bite you.*

It does little good to fire a killing shot that does not actually stop the bear because if the bear's momentum carries it into you, it can easily kill you even as it's dying.* The advantage of the shotgun, and the non-stop firing of it, is that it can physically halt the bear or at least slow it down.* The whole object in defending against a charge is to prevent the bear from coming within physical reach of you.* If he or she does, you're probably dead or at best terribly wounded, no matter what ultimately happens to the bear.* Forget the teeth--- they're the least of your worries.* Take a look at the claws on a brown, or even a black.* That's what's going to do you in.

The reason you don't aim for the head (if you have the presence of mind to actually aim your shots) is that a bear's skull is incredibly strong and the front of the skull slopes back sharply away from you.* So it can actually deflect a bullet or even a slug.* Aiming for the chest and repeatedly firing into it breaks down the heavy muscles between its front legs.* If this works, it puts the bear down onto its chest which also halts or slows it's progress toward you.

It is one thing to write all this out nice and analytically.* It's a whole different deal to have a bear ignore all your shouts, horn blasts, and whistles and drop down on all fours and start toward you.* I have no idea what goes through a person's mind when this happens--- none of the people I know who have had this experience could tell me and I cannot remember what went through mine.* You just react.

There are a lot of things one can do to avoid a confrontation with a bear.* Learn the kind of terrain they like and avoid it.* Make noise as you travel through bear country.* Don't bother with bells on your feet--- the half serious joke is that the proof that bells don't work is all the bells that are found in bear poop.* Use the boat horns to let animals know of your presence long before you get to them.* We were told by a Fish & Game person that when they started issuing these horns to the college students they used to count spawning salmon in streams in SE Alaska the encounters with bears went from several a day to none.* If you come across a bear, even at close range, turn around and go the other way without stopping.* If you're close to a bear, NEVER stare at it.* Their eyesight sucks but if they are close enough to see you clearly, eye contact is a form of aggression (this is true of most animals other than domestic dogs) and can be all it takes to provoke a charge (I'm convinced this is what happened in my case).

And if you do see a bear, consider yourself very privileged.* Like wolves, they are incredible creatures and seeing one in its own habitat, freely living its life, is a truly awe-inspiring experience.* Way better than going to see Avatar in IMAX 3D.

*





-- Edited by Marin on Friday 26th of February 2010 02:45:26 PM

skipperdude wrote:I don't want to go up against the best armed fighting force in the world with a black powder blunderbuss.

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It' won't matter.* The end result will be the same no matter what you have for a weapon.* Best-armed fighting force in the world-1, skipperdude-0.

But it's not something you're going to have to worry about.* You're more likely to be killed by a bear than the US military no matter how paranoid you may be about the government.

*

oldfishboat wrote:Didnt mean ta piss any one off.


Ya I should know better than ta share my thoughts on a public forum.

Think I will stick to just having beers on the beach while enjoying the company of others.

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Not pissed... Just didn't want to let a country boy get too high on his horse. Should have use a smiley or two there... My bad!

Not Paranoid.
Just like to read the constitution.

Besides they are fun to shoot

-- Edited by skipperdude on Friday 26th of February 2010 05:29:22 PM

For the folks that are not comfortable with guns, a reasonable alternative for a border or two is WASP SPRAY.

A shot in the face from 20- ft is an EZ hit , and will stop a nasty .

I don't know if the damage to lungs or eyes is perminant , but my motto has always been, "Mess with a bull you may get the horn" an intruder should feel lucky to not be DEAD.

In the Carib , swimmers can be a hassle , little noise in the approach.

Our solution (GRP boats) is uncovered , bare life lines and a 12v sears 15 mile cattle fence shocker.

Just don't forget to have a way to board , when you return from a day ashore.

FF

As an avid gun owner, and with pirates back on the seas, I would rather have a Mossburg loaded with 00 Buckshot with the plug out, and a few semi-auto's with back up clips on board. Last back-up, my Super Redhawk .44 Mag with 7.5in barrel, if they make it on board.

Bug spray at 20 yards?........ Against an AK-47 or other weapons? With a nice yacht, get to a gun range and protect yourself.

You'll be dead if they have other intentions of boarding/taking your boat in an isolated cove somewhere before you even make a Mayday call.

The FNG.

A shot in the face from 20- ft is an EZ hit , and will stop a nasty .


Bug spray at 20 yards?........ Against an AK-47 or other weapons?


There is a known difference between Yards and Feet.

The wasp spray suggestion is for a prowler that swims or canoes alongside and climbs aboard.

To repel a fellow with an AK 47 would tale a 50 Cal sniper rifle , legal to purchase and own.

BUT it would take practice to be effective from a moving boat.

Firing one brick of ammo a year (1000 rounds) would be simple insurance.

As long as you fellows play with these things in your own back yard you will probably be ok.
Any where else in the world and you would probably be in more trouble than the perp.
You may not agree with the rules else where but that's the way it is.

I have been traveling thru most of the major pirate areas (except Somalia and that is a whole different ball game) in the world for the last 30 years and merchant ships have not had fire arms on board in that time.
The Masters handgun was removed in the mid 70's

In the 15 years I have been cruising the Australian coast I have had 1 intruder, trying to steal my outboard fuel tank in the middle of the night.( this was in a marina) He was apprended by the cops later on and ended up in the slammer for that and other acts.
My only reason for a weapon at all would be for protection against crocodiles in the north and even those bastards are illegal to shoot.

That's just my take on it all

We're sitting for our NEXUS interviews in a month - I've made a note to myself to inquire about guns on board - however I expect them to cover that anyway.

John

Welcome aboard John! What kind of vessel are you cruising in? Is the NEXUS for boating along with other forms of transportation?

Hi Steve - she is a McCredie.* I don't know about other methods of crossing the border with Canada. Haven't flown in since the early 70's and never have driven in. We are doing this exclusively for boating into Canada.

Hi John,

When we had our interview last year it was in 2 parts.* First the US part and then we got to spend some time with a Canadian officer.* She was the one who warned against taking any firearms other than shotguns into Canada.

We have cruised with folks who carried shotguns and they had no border crossing problems as long as the weapons were declared.* Not declaring a weapon can be a major hassle.* A friend who was selected for a cursary inspection had taken his pistol off the boat but neglected to remove a small quantity of ammo.* The basic search turned into a 1.5+ hour mission to find the gun that went with the ammo.* Another time the same friend had a shotgun aboard and failed to declare it when he returned to the states.* Again it cost him a major search and the agents were a lot less than friendly.

During repeated visits it will become obvious that your previous visits have been databased and you may be asked questions based on those visits.* I.E. Is Connie (insert the name of your signicant other) with you?

Ed

Hi Ed - thanks for the help. My cruising partner, boss, Admiral etc etc is Sherry. I really appreciate the advice on firearms. My first inclination would be a handgun but think I'll just leave that idea in the states. I am, however, going to plan on a shotgun and get whatever documentation I need done. We also know of a couple of didn't declare a firearm which was subsequently discovered - I think it was legally dicey for a bit for them. Playing by the rules is sometimes the best course!

Thank you again for the advice.

Got this today from a friend at our old yacht club at Bradenton.* Go unarmed if you want, but travelling and anchoring in isolated places carries a certain amount of danger.

*
Alicia and I recently returned from a 23 day trip from Pasadena YC down the West coast to Marathon and Miami.* A very serious thing happened on the way home and we want to warn all of the members of the Bradenton YC about the problem.
*
After a two night stay at the Biscayne Bay Yacht Club (very nice and lovely people) we left to go back to Marathon on a Saturday morning at about 9 am.* We noticed two boats following us for several miles.* They were about 26 feet long with three men in each.* One of the boats "drafted" in our wake for about a mile and I thought they needed help so I asked Alicia to slow down so I could help them--Big Mistake! They were actually Pirates and when their boat got to about 4 feet from our swim platform one of the men tried to jump aboard our moving boat.* Fortunately, Alicia was very sharp and immediately threw the throttles forward and swamped their boat.* They didn't tip over but never were successful in boarding us.*
*
We called the Coast Guard and they said that Pirates are operating all through the Keys and that we could have been thrown in the water and our boat stolen and we and our dog would probably have drowned.*
*
The message is that all Bradenton boaters should be aware that in these times, especially with drug runners, boats are captured and used for many reasons.* You should always have a weapon on your boat (it is your second home) and have it where you are.* (My gun was in our bedroom and not with me on the Sedan Bridge).* From now on I will have several handguns and my sawed-off shotgun with heavy loads, where ever I am on the boat.* People who are staying "on the hook" are particularly vulnerable since these*Pirates can swim to your boat in the early morning hours when everyone is asleep.* Never slow down for anyone who seems to be in distress.* Stay a safe distance away and call the Coast Guard, even if the distressed boat seems to be on fire.* It could be a smoke pot and a fake.* Be wary, there are some very dangerous people out there.* Luckily we are*safe, a lot wiser and will see you on Friday evening at the Pasadena Yacht Club.

Once again for those that like to anchor out,

a 12V cattle fence shocker works well IF you have metal life lines.

Moonstruck wrote:

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*Fortunately, Alicia was very sharp and immediately threw the throttles forward and swamped their boat.

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J---s C----t, Don!!!

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Glad to hear you're OK! I can't believe this happened in the keys!

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SeaHorse II wrote:Moonstruck wrote:

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*Fortunately, Alicia was very sharp and immediately threw the throttles forward and swamped their boat.

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__________________________________________________________

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J---s C----t, Don!!!

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Glad to hear you're OK! I can't believe this happened in the keys!

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*Haven't verified it Walt.* I don't know the person that wrote it as we dropped our membership in BYC.* We are relocating the boat to the Florida and US east coast for the next couple of years.* The person sending it to me does know the sending party, and he is very reliable.* A licensed 50 ton master.* When more info is sent, it will be posted.

I will say that there are some unsavory characters in the Keys and South Florida.* Many Haitians have come in illegally.* I am much more careful in the Keys and Bahamas as a result.

SeaHorse II wrote:Moonstruck wrote:

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*Fortunately, Alicia was very sharp and immediately threw the throttles forward and swamped their boat.

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__________________________________________________________

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J---s C----t, Don!!!

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Glad to hear you're OK! I can't believe this happened in the keys!

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*Walt, I had posted a wanted poster awhile back*from the Royal Bahama Police.* It was for a boat thief that was \considered armed and dangerous.* His given name was Jeane Claude.* Sound French?* Probably Haitain.* The Bahamians have imported Haitians to do their labor.* Their crime rate has also increased.* A correlation?* There are also some large concentrations of them in South Florida.* To bad that the worst give the rest a bad reputatiion.

I always carry a couple of firearms on board while cruising, so am definitely not anti gun at all.
But from the way this report is written, the part in bold, which seems to be anonymous, sounds bogus to me. Maybe I am wrong, if so my apologies to the writer.
In any case the adice to be wary is always valid.
It would be interesting to see if a CG report or advisory is available.

Steve W

Steve wrote:
I always carry a couple of firearms on board while cruising, so am definitely not anti gun at all.
But from the way this report is written, the part in bold, which seems to be anonymous, sounds bogus to me. Maybe I am wrong, if so my apologies to the writer.
In any case the adice to be wary is always valid.
It would be interesting to see if a CG report or advisory is available.

Steve W

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*Steve, I have sent e-mails to check the validity of the report.* The person I got it from is very reliable.* The fact that it mentioned the BYC members also made it more real to me.* I will continue checking, but wanted to alert anyone possibly headed that way.

Thanks Don, please let us know what you find.

Steve W

Steve wrote:
Thanks Don, please let us know what you find.

Steve W

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*OK, so far this is it.* The incident e-mail was sent to our Power Fleet Capt. at BYC, who I know.* It was forwarded to me* by a friend of 35 years who is totally reliable.* It was sent to him by the Power Fleet Capt.* I am no longer on that mailing list as I resigned from the club.* The person sending the incident report is a doctor known by the Power Fleet Capt.* I have asked for anymore info that may be available.

Have recieved e-mail confirmation that the reporting party is a kown member of BYC.* He has been spoken with ,and confirms the report.* It is true.

Thanks Don for the report and keeping us updated.

I just returned from 10 days down in the Keys, having anchored in some pretty isolated areas. I had no problems and do not carry a gun aboard, but am rethinking this.

My cousin who cruises the Caribbean on a 52' ketch during the winter carries a rifle and hand gun. He has a well thought out plan if someone attempts to board. His major concern is while at sea and carries tracer rounds for the rifle that he would use as a warning. If ignored, next shot is a live round thru the hull at the engine location. This is only after several attempts at radio contact. At port or anchor the hand gun is more useful, but he does hide cash throughout the boat if he is unsuccessful at thwarting a thief.

I think it's very unlikely that someone would attempt to board a boat underway in the protected waters of the US, though like Don's friend it is possible. A hand gun would seem a bit more useful and far more easy to carry. The judge http://www.taurususa.com/video-theJudge.cfm has been recommended by a close relative. A revolver that loads either 410 shot or a 45 cal bullet, or both.

Another line of defense that I'm considering is an alarm system that uses deck sensors. These sensors are strategically located on the boat (mine would require only 3) and are epoxied underneath the deck, so you have to have access. Coupled to the computer module, siren, strobe light and high water bilge sensor completes the system. About $650. http://www.boatalarm.com/index.html

I want to get references before purchasing. I would want to know the deck sensors are reliable and not prone to false alarms.

I don't consider out 75lb golden retriever much of a deterrent.

timjet wrote:
I don't consider out 75lb golden retriever much of a deterrent.

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*Well, our totally dependable guard dog, Troy, distracts intruders by lickig their face until I can get the firearm.