Shore Power Breaker, Boat Side

Just completed an in-water survey for insurance renewal. No issues except: Surveyor notes that the boat is missing a breaker between the shore power inlet and the main panel. Shore power is two (2) 30a 120v feeds.

Surveyor says it’s no big deal. Grab a disconnect box with dipole 30a breaker at the friendly big box store and install in line. Sounds easy.

After casting about n the net, all I’m seeing from the box stores is fused disconnects similar to what you see on house air conditioners. I’m not big on fuses, but maybe I need to rethink it. Went to Blue Sea and I’m suddenly into ELCI stuff with galvanic isolators ($$$).

The way my system is physically laid out, the ideal breaker location is in the wall of a dry hanging locker – no weather exposure.

An electrician acquaintance says the nomenclature is “30a 120v dipole breaker disconnect.” I’m having no luck with that. Do I have a nomenclature problem or am I chasing a unicorn?

Any thoughts, guidance appreciated.

If your power receptacles are more than 10 feet from your panel....then....


It is just a 2 pole 30A breaker that has either 2 flippers connected externally or one flipper and is connected inside.


But you need 2 of them...one for each 30 amp power plug.


One CB gets the hot, one gets the neutral.


If serious...this is what I think you really need...but is pricey and ELCIs are not required for older builds (yet).


https://www.bluesea.com/products/31...Panel_Enclosure_-_2_x_120V_AC___30A_ELCI_Main

If you are on a budget print the page psneeld sent and show it to a guy in an electrical supply house , or at Home Cheapo.

Should cost WAY less , but will be in a grey painted box and wont include an operating light, or reverse polarity light , which is probably already on board.

Unless you want the GFCI protection (and I wouldn't) then one of these Blue Seas surface mount boxes will work inside- Blue Sea Systems Circuit Breaker Enclosure

Don't install a double pole breaker like the picture shows. Install two single pole breakers, essentially the same thing but without the common trip bar. But this is not weather proof.

Somebody makes an inexpensive outdoor box, but I can't find it. My 2006 Mainship had one near the two shore power cord inlets. It used standard magnetic breakers but had a flexible clear silicone rubber cover over each breaker tab to keep water out. I sold the boat, but if anyone has one, post the manufacturer's name. It is a clean, inexpensive solution for an outdoor breaker box.

David

djmarchand said:

Unless you want the GFCI protection (and I wouldn't) then one of these Blue Seas surface mount boxes will work inside- Blue Sea Systems Circuit Breaker Enclosure

Don't install a double pole breaker like the picture shows. Install two single pole breakers, essentially the same thing but without the common trip bar. But this is not weather proof.

Somebody makes an inexpensive outdoor box, but I can't find it. My 2006 Mainship had one near the two shore power cord inlets. It used standard magnetic breakers but had a flexible clear silicone rubber cover over each breaker tab to keep water out. I sold the boat, but if anyone has one, post the manufacturer's name. It is a clean, inexpensive solution for an outdoor breaker box.

David

Click to expand...

When you say single pole...each one will trip both hot and neutral for each shore power cord?

A GE TL240RCU 40 amp outdoor load center will work. Made of steel and tin plated copper buss. And it is compact in size.
This has wire openings on the bottom. You need a GE 2 pole breaker to go in it.
For example here,
https://www.menards.com/main/electr...t-convertible-load-center/p-1444431225235.htm
Might be able to view and get one local.

I actually combined the guts from 2 of these into one to handle twin 30 amp AC inputs.
I had to modify the cover by heating with a torch and bumping out the area to match the other side, cut out a space for the breaker handle on the inner panel cover, etc....


Here is a plastic load center, but I would have to examine as not certain myself what it looks like inside.
GE PowerMark Gold 125 Amp 4-Space 8-Circuit Outdoor Main Lug Circuit Breaker Panel-TPL412RP - The Home Depot

Research things like those perhaps.

A 30 amp dual pole GE breaker will disconnect hot and neutral together.
One side gets hot wire, other side gets neutral on the breaker.

psneeld said:

When you say single pole...each one will trip both hot and neutral for each shore power cord?

Click to expand...

No, I was talking about two separate breakers to trip the hot on two separate feeds from shore power. I think that is what the OP was saying.

AFAIK, there is no need to trip both hot and neutral on the incoming shore power feed. Genset/shorepower transfer switches, yes.

David

djmarchand said:

No, I was talking about two separate breakers to trip the hot on two separate feeds from shore power. I think that is what the OP was saying.

AFAIK, there is no need to trip both hot and neutral on the incoming shore power feed. Genset/shorepower transfer switches, yes.

David

Click to expand...

Interesting, if not required to break both hot and neutral together on the power coming off the utility grid, then you could use one box with 2 single pole 30 amp breakers.
I just assumed you did so I set mine up that way.

Although it says here
Circuit Breakers
Factory shorepower in older boats too often omitted a circuit breaker. The thinking was that a boat was just another "appliance" plugged into the marina circuit, which was already protected. But faulty marina wiring is too common to entrust your safety to an unknown breaker behind a dock office a quarter of a mile away.

A safe AC system requires an onboard dual-pole breaker.

http://www.boatus.com/boattech/casey/safe-shorepower.asp

From ABYC it is not mandatory to have a dual pole breaker in the incoming shorepower line, however in that case you mut have a polarity inversion detector.

djmarchand said:

No, I was talking about two separate breakers to trip the hot on two separate feeds from shore power. I think that is what the OP was saying.

AFAIK, there is no need to trip both hot and neutral on the incoming shore power feed. Genset/shorepower transfer switches, yes.

David

Click to expand...

The breaker is supposed to disconnect the hot and the neutral. That's a double pole breaker. If you have two power inlets, you need two double pole breakers. The breakers must be less than ten feet (measured along the cable) from the inlet to meet the ABYC requirements.

If you have any question about this, pay a marine electrician to do the installation. You'll sleep better at night.

WesK said:

The breaker is supposed to disconnect the hot and the neutral. That's a double pole breaker. If you have two power inlets, you need two double pole breakers. The breakers must be less than ten feet (measured along the cable) from the inlet to meet the ABYC requirements.

If you have any question about this, pay a marine electrician to do the installation. You'll sleep better at night.

Click to expand...

That is the way I did mine. Two double pole 30 amp breakers, one for each incoming shore power line.

sbu22 said:

Just completed an in-water survey for insurance renewal. No issues except: Surveyor notes that the boat is missing a breaker between the shore power inlet and the main panel. Shore power is two (2) 30a 120v feeds.

Surveyor says it’s no big deal. Grab a disconnect box with dipole 30a breaker at the friendly big box store and install in line. Sounds easy.

After casting about n the net, all I’m seeing from the box stores is fused disconnects similar to what you see on house air conditioners. I’m not big on fuses, but maybe I need to rethink it. Went to Blue Sea and I’m suddenly into ELCI stuff with galvanic isolators ($$$).

The way my system is physically laid out, the ideal breaker location is in the wall of a dry hanging locker – no weather exposure.

An electrician acquaintance says the nomenclature is “30a 120v dipole breaker disconnect.” I’m having no luck with that. Do I have a nomenclature problem or am I chasing a unicorn?

Any thoughts, guidance appreciated.

Click to expand...

The box is 13.74 at Home Depot. You need 2 plus the appropriate double pole 30a breaker.

Square D QO 30 Amp 2-Space 2-Circuit Indoor Main Lug Load Center-QO2L30SCP - The Home Depot

Ken

kchace said:

The box is 13.74 at Home Depot. You need 2 plus the appropriate double pole 30a breaker.

Square D QO 30 Amp 2-Space 2-Circuit Indoor Main Lug Load Center-QO2L30SCP - The Home Depot

Ken

Click to expand...

Good price.
I did find my box at HDepot which is Nema 3R, rated outdoor raintight, which I wanted that cover mostly I was worried it might get wet.

GE PowerMark Gold 40-Amp 2-Space 4-Circuit Outdoor Single-Phase Main Lug Circuit Breaker Panel-TL240RCUP - The Home Depot

Box size is 7.25 wide X 3.75 deep X 10 tall inches.

Ge General Electric Tl240rcu 7.25 X 3.75 X 10 In 40a Load Center Galanized Steel | What's it worth

djmarchand said:

No, I was talking about two separate breakers to trip the hot on two separate feeds from shore power. I think that is what the OP was saying.

AFAIK, there is no need to trip both hot and neutral on the incoming shore power feed. Genset/shorepower transfer switches, yes.

David

Click to expand...

With 30A 120V services, if you want to be in compliance with the accepted safety standards, the standards the surveyor is surveying to, then the breaker needs to simultaneously interrupt both AC hot (black) and neutral (white).

A Blue Sea 7238 is a standard AC breaker for 30A systems where you're installation is not meeting the 10' of wire rule (between main AC breaker and AC inlet) and the vessel already has a reverse polarity system.

If one is not comfortable with marine AC wiring, and the many nuances of a correct installation, including the isolation of neutrals, on-board, with dual 30A shore power feeds, it would be best to call in a marine electrician..

sdowney717 said:

Good price.
I did find my box at HDepot which is Nema 3R, rated outdoor raintight, which I wanted that cover mostly I was worried it might get wet.

GE PowerMark Gold 40-Amp 2-Space 4-Circuit Outdoor Single-Phase Main Lug Circuit Breaker Panel-TL240RCUP - The Home Depot

Box size is 7.25 wide X 3.75 deep X 10 tall inches.

Ge General Electric Tl240rcu 7.25 X 3.75 X 10 In 40a Load Center Galanized Steel | What's it worth

Click to expand...

The one you found is nice, galvanized and NEMA 3 and still not expensive.

Ken

I would go ahead and spend the extra few dollars on a conventional marine panel and breakers. Remember, at some point, the boat will be put up for sale and buyers will be more comfortable with something from a known marine supplier, not something from the home center.

Honestly, what is the point of a disconnect, why not just unplug the boat. Is it too hard to unplug the boat? Why a 10 foot rule?
My new marina has twin 30 amp power and a box on their post with 30 amp breaker.
It is a nice looking box, I will see if I can find a manufacturer plate.

My old marina had a post with a 15 amp outlet and no breaker you could easily reach.

I added the load center because of the rule, but such a thing is not necessary. My boat survived almost 45 years without one.

sdowney717 said:

Honestly, what is the point of a disconnect, why not just unplug the boat. Is it too hard to unplug the boat? Why a 10 foot rule?
My new marina has twin 30 amp power and a box on their post with 30 amp breaker.
It is a nice looking box, I will see if I can find a manufacturer plate.

My old marina had a post with a 15 amp outlet and no breaker you could easily reach.

I added the load center because of the rule, but such a thing is not necessary. My boat survived almost 45 years without one.

Click to expand...

Unplugging under load is a bad practice and one that will shorten the life of your plugs and/result in a potential fire.

Bacchus said:

Unplugging under load is a bad practice and one that will shorten the life of your plugs and/result in a potential fire.

Click to expand...

All depends how much load your disconnecting.
I run a fridge and charger all the time, so this is under 3 amps.
I never turn off the disconnect shore power breaker I installed. I just unplug the boat when going somewhere.

If I was running AC or oven, I would before unplugging, toggle off the shore power 4PDT relay to switch over to gen power.

sdowney717 said:

Honestly, what is the point of a disconnect, why not just unplug the boat. Is it too hard to unplug the boat? Why a 10 foot rule?
My new marina has twin 30 amp power and a box on their post with 30 amp breaker.
It is a nice looking box, I will see if I can find a manufacturer plate.

My old marina had a post with a 15 amp outlet and no breaker you could easily reach.

I added the load center because of the rule, but such a thing is not necessary. My boat survived almost 45 years without one.

Click to expand...

Circuit breakers and fuses are not necessary if you never have an electrical fault. Just like PFDs are not necessary if your boat never sinks or you never fall out of it.

The "ten foot rule" is per ABYC. The cable from the electrical inlet(s) is protected only by the circuit breaker on the dock. It could be defective. You could be using a fifty amp adapter in which case your thirty amp cabling is protected by a fifty amp breaker (not really protected).

Ten feet is really a compromise. Ideally, the main breaker(s) should be located within a few inches of the inlet(s). Ten feet is assumed to be a reasonable risk.

The ABYC has access to records of thousands of fires and other incidents. You and I do not. They are in a position to determine risk. We are not. Think of the ABYC as the building code for boats. They are looking out for our safety.

Bacchus said:

Unplugging under load is a bad practice and one that will shorten the life of your plugs and/result in a potential fire.

Click to expand...

This is correct and important. Even if you disconnect all the loads, the cable end is still hot if you don't turn of the shore breaker first.

sdowney717 said:

........I never turn off the disconnect shore power breaker I installed. I just unplug the boat when going somewhere.
.

Click to expand...

You are misunderstanding the reason for the circuit breaker. It's not for use as a switch, it's to interrupt the current if there's an electrical fault.

You wouldn't typically use it as a switch, it's just there for protection.

WesK said:

Circuit breakers and fuses are not necessary if you never have an electrical fault. Just like PFDs are not necessary if your boat never sinks or you never fall out of it.

The "ten foot rule" is per ABYC. The cable from the electrical inlet(s) is protected only by the circuit breaker on the dock. It could be defective. You could be using a fifty amp adapter in which case your thirty amp cabling is protected by a fifty amp breaker (not really protected).

Ten feet is really a compromise. Ideally, the main breaker(s) should be located within a few inches of the inlet(s). Ten feet is assumed to be a reasonable risk.

The ABYC has access to records of thousands of fires and other incidents. You and I do not. They are in a position to determine risk. We are not. Think of the ABYC as the building code for boats. They are looking out for our safety.

Click to expand...

Of course it adds another safety layer. This is what they do, continually add regulations respecting every aspect of our existence. I have my disconnect breakers about 6 feet away from the power inlets.

I have twin 30 amp power, so a total of 60 amps possible for my boat.
If I plug into the 50 amp power and use my Y adapter, now I just have total of 50 amps, 25 amps per line. Always I assume the breaker on the dock is a functioning breaker.

The other thing I dont like about the ELCI on your boat, does nothing to protect you from a leaky shore power cord, which I think is most likely to see damage, getting pinched etc...compared to your boat wiring. Any ELCI ought to be on the dock.

I had a 50 foot shore cord fail, came to boat and it was apparently somehow damaged one day and was leaking current into the salt water. When I dissected the cord, 6 feet of copper wire (black hot side) had disintegrated into the sea. I cut off 15 feet and am using that cord today for about 10 years so far.

I do tie up my power cord to keep it out of the water. I was gone for about 10 days, and something happened, storm, high tide to cause the problem. I think the power cord get caught between boat and dock. Only way I knew was boat inside had no power.

Circuit breakers are often used for switching on boats....

Many main panels have slide protectors when switching from main to genset...and other things too...look at all the labels.....most people dont follow up with a separate switch as marine CBs are usually designed to cover both functions as stated below.

From West Marine

Rocker actuator is flush in the "ON" position, eliminating the risk of accidental switching
Color actuator indicates "OFF" position
Provides overcurrent protection for inverters, bow thrusters, and windlasses

Combines switching and circuit protection into a single device

"Trip Free" cannot be held closed after trip
Ignition protected safe for installation aboard gasoline powered boats

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/blue...rcuit-breakers--P009_273_007_523?recordNum=11

sdowney717 said:

................ This is what they do, continually add regulations respecting every aspect of our existence. .........

Click to expand...

The regulations are not just for your safety, they are for the safety of other people who may be on your boat, slip neighbors and others who may be near your boat and future owners of your boat. It's no different than land based building codes.

There are no "boat police" so you don't have to comply with the regulations but it's best and safest if you do. If there is a situation where your negligence or disregard of safety regulations causes injury or loss of life, you may be held liable.

WesK said:

You are misunderstanding the reason for the circuit breaker. It's not for use as a switch, it's to interrupt the current if there's an electrical fault.

You wouldn't typically use it as a switch, it's just there for protection.

Click to expand...

IMHO I consider it serves both purposes.
Do you turn off power at the pedestal before connecting / disconnecting your shore power cords - best practice in my book ?
If so you are using it as a switch...If not to each is own.
How about at home if doing any wiring...I prefer to turn off that circuit by using the switch / circuit breaker but I'm comfortable doing electrical work myself but don't like working "hot" if unnecessary.

Bacchus said:

IMHO I consider it serves both purposes.
Do you turn off power at the pedestal before connecting / disconnecting your shore power cords - best practice in my book ?
If so you are using it as a switch...If not to each is own.
How about at home if doing any wiring...I prefer to turn off that circuit by using the switch / circuit breaker but I'm comfortable doing electrical work myself but don't like working "hot" if unnecessary.

Click to expand...

I thought we were talking about the additional circuit breaker required if the cable run from the inlet to the main breaker was over ten feet.

Yes, I turn off the power at the dock pedestal before connecting or disconnecting my shorepower cord. In my travels I have come across a few cases where there is no easily available breaker or switch. In these cases, I turn off the main breaker on my boat and plug the boat end of the shorepower cord in first, then plug in the shore end and then turn on the breaker on my boat. Unplugging is the reverse.

You never want to plug or unplug the cord if there is current flowing and you don't want the boat end hot if it's not connected to the boat.

WesK said:

You never want to plug or unplug the cord if there is current flowing and you don't want the boat end hot if it's not connected to the boat.

Click to expand...

Sounds like we are in agreement - I may have misread / interpreted your earlier comments.
I find the CB at the inlet more convenient than my main panel and tend to use it when connecting shore power cords.

Bacchus said:

Sounds like we are in agreement - I may have misread / interpreted your earlier comments.
I find the CB at the inlet more convenient than my main panel and tend to use it when connecting shore power cords.

Click to expand...

I don't have that extra circuit breaker as my inlet is within the allowed ten feet of the main breaker on the electrical panel. I switch off the dock pedestal when possible, not the boat breaker.

Can someone quote the text from ABYC's 10' rule?

On my boat the incoming 30 amp power goes aft to an inverter/charger, through the transfer switch and then forward to the main AC panel. The total distance to the breaker on the main panel is more than 10 feet. So to meet ABYC, do I need to put a breaker between the shore power inlet and the inverter/charger to keep it less than 10'?

And how about power from the inverter? Let's assume that the distance from the inverter to the main AC panel is more than 10'. Do I need another breaker within 10' of the inverter?

David