propulsion of the future for FD boats?

up for discussion today:

Pod drive Cruise 10.0 fixed pod for motorboats / sailboats

And what are your thoughts of this vs the elco inboard motors?

It takes a lot of juice but it's a cool new doo-dad. If you put "twins" in, you'd have more than enough power for a 30 something foot FD boat. how many batteries would you need though for a day of cruising......?

The subject of electric drive for boats is interesting.
I'm happy to watch from a distance as people play with this stuff.
Even the little Torqueedo is kind of fascinating but again, from a distance.
Personally, I am way too much of a motorhead to take a plunge like this but people seem to like their electric drives... I have considered the Torqueedo actually.
The one that makes me really roll my eyes is the Tesla owner who tows an Airstream. I haven't seen him posting on the airstream forum lately but I believe he was serious about using his Tesla for towing. As we have just now crossed the southern US on Interstate 10 with day after 500 mile day I wonder where he goes?
Bruce

Probably to a charging station.

I could see something like this drive for a day sailor who requires powered propulsion to get around the harbor. One thing that would appeal to me is it seems like it could run off a house bank. So I could build in more or less capacity as my needs required.

Ken

Bruce B said:

The subject of electric drive for boats is interesting.
I'm happy to watch from a distance as people play with this stuff.
Even the little Torqueedo is kind of fascinating but again, from a distance.
Personally, I am way too much of a motorhead to take a plunge like this but people seem to like their electric drives... I have considered the Torqueedo actually.
The one that makes me really roll my eyes is the Tesla owner who tows an Airstream. I haven't seen him posting on the airstream forum lately but I believe he was serious about using his Tesla for towing. As we have just now crossed the southern US on Interstate 10 with day after 500 mile day I wonder where he goes?
Bruce

Click to expand...

I think he went up in a ball of lithium flame. I wouldn't have lithium batteries (this generation) aboard my boat if they were giving them away. Which they clearly are not

Gabe n Em said:

up for discussion today:

Pod drive Cruise 10.0 fixed pod for motorboats / sailboats

And what are your thoughts of this vs the elco inboard motors?

It takes a lot of juice but it's a cool new doo-dad. If you put "twins" in, you'd have more than enough power for a 30 something foot FD boat. how many batteries would you need though for a day of cruising......?

Click to expand...

No the same, but I have been thinking about an electric motor as a get-home motor for my single engine boat. I have a 20kW generator that could power a 240V AC motor (pretty efficient these days.) 20kW is a bit low for a get home for my size boat, but calcs suggest it could push her along at 4kt. Big head seas would be a different story.

Richard

Seems we had this question come up a bit ago maybe someone can combine the threads.

Electric motors are fine its really mostly a battery problem at this point. Looking at the numbers and converting everything to kilowatts a lifeline AGM 8d contains 255 amps of current at 12 volts. That's 3060 watts, but in reality you can only use 1/2 of the capacity before needing a recharge. So 1530 watts divided 70.3 kg equals 21.7 watts/kg for an energy density comparison. The lithium "x" torqeedo pack according to the spec sheet is 2685 watts per pack, but at least you can use all its capacity. So 2685watts/24.3 kg is 110 watts/kg. Better you say until you compare it to diesel. Diesel fuel is a whopping 13,400 watts/kg. You'll need over 121 kg of those torqeedo batteries to give you the energy packed into 1 kg of diesel fuel. Then you still need to figure out how to charge them.

Everybody thinks the future is going where it's headed at the present.

Advances will be made .......
Not only to electric devices and the batteries they are dependant on but to the drive devices we have right now.
Most thought cars would be power by gasoline turbines including Chrysler. That was in the 50's. Since then there's been a great number of improvements made to the reciprocating piston gasoline engine and it's still very much in use .. 62 years later.

Electric is very popular now but for the foreseeable future I'd put my money on modifications of the power producers and drive systems we have now.

The supercharged ecological people want to throw out oil and coal power completely and just use electricity. Not even close to possible. Our industrial system would'nt support a small percentage of the people we have today if we suddenly became Amish. Young people are very impatient. One can speed up evolution but only so much. Perhaps only a small percentage of the people on earth that we have now will be able to survive with the limited amount of power available then and the overpopulation situation will be a thing of the past - the present of course.
Most will think the above is very pessimistic but evolution must take place before the young and old alike can walk through the door into the future.


cafesport,
I like your post and I especially like your new avatar. Hope it will be a symbol of your presense for years to come. Years sounds extreme but we are talking about the future.

To put it into perspective, that $2,600 battery pack will power that pod at full continuous output for 15 minutes. It will probably take full continuous output of one of those pods to push a 30' trawler to 6 kts. So about $10,000 worth of batteries will let you cruise for an hour.

So, stick with a diesel which will cost about $10,000 for that trawler, but the fuel will cost a couple of bucks each hour and you can easily carry enough fuel for a hundred hours of cruising.

David

Does the electric motor have a reverse function? Couldn't find where it was stated.

Electric boat motors don't have a gearbox, but they do have a variable speed drive along with reverse.

I investigated the electric power option before I replaced my diesel engine and fuel tanks. It certainly is possible to to get a 100 nm cruising range on a FD trawler at 5 knots, but it is expensive (about 3 times the price of installing a new diesel engine and tanks). It is also more complicated, and heavier overall. It takes a lot of batteries.
If you had a marina to recharge every night it would work fine, as lithium batteries have very fast charging capabilities. With solar, you would need a huge amount of real estate to keep up with the power usage. Perhaps a catamaran covered in panels may suitable; monohulls don't have the space.
When the battery size, weight and cost are reduced by 50%, I'll consider an electric boat again.

"When the battery size, weight and cost are reduced by 50%,"

It may be a very long wait, battery tech has been worked on for over a century.

For a very small % improvement .

When a batt can put out as much energy as a gallon of fuel , at the same size,cost and weight, batts might be useful.

FF said:

"When the battery size, weight and cost are reduced by 50%,"

It may be a very long wait, battery tech has been worked on for over a century.

For a very small % improvement .

When a batt can put out as much energy as a gallon of fuel , at the same size,cost and weight, batts might be useful.

Click to expand...

The present day lead acid batteries produce 30-40 watt hours per kilogram of weight. This alone is a considerable improvement on early technology.
The new L-ion batteries are now producing 220 wh/kg. A 600% increase in efficiency just in the last 20 years. That's not a small % improvement.
A new L-ion battery has been produced that lasts 20,000 cycles.

Now that they are starting to be mass produced for golf carts and cars, the prices should start coming down rapidly. Sony and others have been nailed for price fixing L-ion batteries. We should start getting some competitive pricing soon. GM announced they were paying $145 per kW/hr for batteries in the 2116 Chevy Volt. That sort of number makes electric power look attractive.

I don't know if batteries will ever pack as much energy as a gallon of fuel, but I do know diesel engines will never be as quiet, or as clean, or rechargeable by the sun or wind.

Meanwhile all these lovely pollution free battery's are been produced and charged using 1000s of tons of coal and petroleum fuel .And by the time they pay for there initial investment they are due for replacement . Yep great idea

Kinda like the plug in cars that burn coal. Pollute more than gegular cars.

Who need a propellr anyway, the real future of trawler propulsion is ths:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamic_drive

We have "clean coal" now.Every piece gets washed with dishsoap before use.
Australia exports billions of tons of coal, but can I buy some for the fire at home? Nope.

gaston said:

Meanwhile all these lovely pollution free battery's are been produced and charged using 1000s of tons of coal and petroleum fuel .And by the time they pay for there initial investment they are due for replacement . Yep great idea

Click to expand...

Of course batteries aren't pollution free but the overall process is less damaging than the use of fossil fuels.
And If they pay for their initial investment anytime during their life cycle it is a good investment.

gaston said:

Meanwhile all these lovely pollution free battery's are been produced and charged using 1000s of tons of coal and petroleum fuel .And by the time they pay for there initial investment they are due for replacement . Yep great idea

Click to expand...

That and the fact that batteries are charged with electricity produced by burning fossil fuels. I doubt anybody will be allowed to build more hydroelectric power plants and nuclear has a lot of resistance as well.

It is far more efficient to burn fuel to directly power a boat than it is to burn fuel to make electricity, transport it long distances, convert it to low voltage DC and use it to charge batteries to run electric motors to power a boat.

AusCan said:

Of course batteries aren't pollution free but the overall process is less damaging than the use of fossil fuels.
And If they pay for their initial investment anytime during their life cycle it is a good investment.

Click to expand...

Read my post above. The process of making electricity to charge the batteries produces pollution. It's just somewhere else so you don't see it.

WesK,
I'd like to propose that it is produced at least more efficiently elsewhere? A larger engine (power plant, coal or otherwise) at load produces power more efficiently than a bunch of smaller ones(cars)

... I don't have any proof so if you look it up and show it's otherwise, I'll believe you...

I'll let the cat out of the bag: Em and I are a couple crunchy kids. I drive a volt and have been very happy with my electrically propelled CAR and was wondering why my next (or next-next) BOAT couldn't be as well.


I could see enough next-gen lithiums (or whatever) for most of our weekend jaunts in the space where the diesel tanks are - maybe a total run time of 10 or 15 hours and then a small diesel tank and a noisemaker if you wanted to do the occasional weeklong trip....once you get into the looping and cruising every day scenario it starts to look more far-fetched....

Gabe,
Not trying to be a SA but do you know anybody doing it?
I think going to Alaska on a battery powered boat is far fetched now but who knows what the near or far future will produce.
May not even be electricity. Hydrogen power direct or?
And if you think nuclear waste was bad millions of lithium batteries could be a far greater problem. The green guys may think our planet is on fire some day.

WesK said:

Read my post above. The process of making electricity to charge the batteries produces pollution. It's just somewhere else so you don't see it.

Click to expand...

Just like gasoline that is mixed with Ethanol causes less pollution in its emissions, until you look at all the pollution created by growing, distilling, and transporting the ethanol to then mix it at the refineries.

Greetings,
In a former life I worked in support to a battery research group. Even though that was 8+ years ago, they were so far away from developing ANYTHING that even barely approached the energy density of fossil fuels it was silly even to suggest such a thing. Hydrogen fuel cells seemed to be the way to go at that time. As I said, 8+ years ago so I have no idea of any advances that may have been made in either battery technology OR fuel cells OR Mr. Fusion.

For autos a flywheel would offer the easiest method of big power and rapid re energise over a pad at a fuel stop, or more slowly plugged in.

Never happen as the liability in a crash of a 200,000RPM heavy disc departing the vehicle leaves the Liars for Hire gasping in anticipation.

FF said:

For autos a flywheel would offer the easiest method of big power and rapid re energise over a pad at a fuel stop, or more slowly plugged in.

Click to expand...

I have often thought that something like that would be good for some city bus systems. Use regenerating braking to help recover that energy and in a city with overhead trolley wires use that for a power source. If not, use a small generator with electric motor to keep the flywheel spinning.

WesK said:

Read my post above. The process of making electricity to charge the batteries produces pollution. It's just somewhere else so you don't see it.

Click to expand...

Wes -
Of course all electricity production causes some pollution, either directly or indirectly. Almost any process has some negative effect. It is a question of how much pollution per kW, and whether the fuel is renewable.

In South Australia, 43% of all electricity is produced from renewable energy, (wind, solar and landfill gas). The rest is from natural gas, which is much cleaner than coal or diesel generated electricity.

Just because is isn't zero-emissions yet, doesn't mean it is not an improvement.

AusCan,
There's a great deal of variation in the amount of pollution all around the US. We in the PNW mid last century got almost all our power from hydro-electric. Now most comes from coal. Many do'nt know that and buy a plug-in car thinking it will be eco clean and inexpensive only to find the opposite is true.
Over time the sources of electrical power changes as does the cost.

Dhays
that system already exists for city buses and trash trucks in electric and hydraulic. for electric there is a motor connected to the transmission that can be reversed to be used a generator for braking. For hydraulics they use a hydraulic pump/motor connected to the transmission. When braking the motor becomes a pump that pumps fluid into a bank of accumulators. when you want to accelerate the accumulators pump fluid back into the pump that now becomes a motor and accelerates the truck / bus. Both systems save on fuel and brake pads. Allison manufactures the electric and Eaton, Rexroth and Dana manufacture the hydraulic version. Dana is now offering the hydraulic version on heavy equipment that has a quick stop/start cycle (think wheel loader)
John

David and John,
That's been done for many years on the SanFrancisco "Bart" subway system.