Thinner oil

This is a bit from the Blackstone oil analysis lab newsletter describing how thinner oils arent watered down with additives to the point of sensible discussion and they aren't just for super cold weather either.

"Today we are starting to see more diesel fleets going to
10W/30, and I’m here to tell you that this change is good. Not
only will the bearings do just fine, but the engines will start up
better (especially in the cold). And this change might eliminate
the need for plugging your diesel in at night. Now, there will
always be some people who are resistant to change. In fact
there are whole countries that are. The German vehicle
manufacturers have yet to embrace thin oil, though I think that
change will happen some day."

Saw that, think I'll stick with the manufacturer's recommendation. Other than cold climate starting, not really seeing an advantage. My Cummins 6BT in my Dodge pickup has 430,000 miles on it and doesn't use any oil or have metal wear issues in the oil analysis. Not sure how thinner oil will improve on that. Regarding cold weather, think it's far better to use a block heater than thin oil. That's what I did anyway, when I wintered in the NE.

Ted

My car is specified for both 5-30 and 5-40. It had 5-40 in it and when I changed I put in 5-30. If I was driving on steep grades in hot weather I'da gone w the 5-40.

On my boat I use straight 30.

From psneeld's Blackstone newsletter: "The German vehicle manufacturers have yet to embrace thin oil, though I think that change will happen some day."

It's unclear which manufacturers the writer refers to, but for many years Volkswagen's specification for my current diesel (a 2001 TDi) is for a list of lube oil products ranging in viscosity from 5W/30 to 5W/40. See the 2008 VGA Technical Bulletin, here: http://www.myturbodiesel.com/images/pdf/vwoiltsb.pdf

My previous Volkswagen came with a digital engine-oil temperature display, which I miss. For the first forty or fifty thousand miles, I ran that engine with conventional (fossil) lube oil, then switched to Mobil 1 synthetic oil. Under similar operating conditions (speed, air temp, load, etc.) I immediately noticed that the oil temperature display showed a consistently lower temp for the engine lube oil, by about 10 degrees F. E.g., with fossil oil, the oil ran at about 235 degrees. With synthetic, the value showed about 226. That visible difference convinced me that, weight for weight, synthetic oil has better lubricating properties.

Diesels need heat to run efficiently, but reduced lube-oil temps don't impair combustion, since the engine operating temp is controlled by the thermostat.

That said, most of the marine diesel mechanics I've talked with say that, over time, the type of oil you put in your engine matters less than how often / regularly you change it. The last workboat I ran had a pair of 3406 Cats, each requiring twelve gallons at an oil change. As my boss pointed out when he thought I was being a little overzealous, oil changes can add up.

I think it depends on oil temp when operating. What matters is the viscosity at temp, and 10w30 at 160F is probably thicker than 15w40 at 200F. I would need to look up the visc/temp charts to tell exactly. But viscosity changes drastically with temp.

My 5kW NL gennie engine runs cool, so it gets rotella 10w30. Oil fill cap actually is printed with 10w30!! My Cummins main when planed out runs around 200F and manual definitely specs 15w40, so that's what it gets.

My VW diesel car runs oil around 220F, and has a dry turbo, and they spec 5w40 synthetic. I don't like changing turbos so I stick with spec.

For you guys with Lehmans, Perkins, Volvo and Yanmar with sea water oil coolers, those typically run oil cool and 10w30 may be an option.

Thick cold oil creates a lot of friction and that means higher fuel burn. But it may be a bit of an experiment on those old beasts. Tread cautiously!!

In cars, lighter weight oil is used to meet fuel mileage standards. It's possible that a marine diesel engine would be more efficient with lighter weight oils but switching to synthetics would do the same thing.


I would say the manufacturer's recommendation is certainly a good place to start and if you don't have cold starting issues, it's probably a good place to stay. It's true that if your engine was designed twenty years ago, improvements have been made in motor oils but if you're not having any problems, you're probably better off sticking with what works.


I suspect very few of us ever start our engines when it's below freezing.

boat engines using heavy-duty oil for cars and their oils, although both the same viscosity, and additives is absolutely erillainen due to the machine load differences.


if you want to lower emission figures, dilute the oil with diesel fuel, such as WV


Kippis!

psneeld said:

This is a bit from the Blackstone oil analysis lab newsletter describing how thinner oils arent watered down with additives to the point of sensible discussion and they aren't just for super cold weather either.

"Today we are starting to see more diesel fleets going to
10W/30, and I’m here to tell you that this change is good. Not
only will the bearings do just fine, but the engines will start up
better (especially in the cold). And this change might eliminate
the need for plugging your diesel in at night. Now, there will
always be some people who are resistant to change. In fact
there are whole countries that are. The German vehicle
manufacturers have yet to embrace thin oil, though I think that
change will happen some day."

Click to expand...

sorry, is bull **** that the machine starts to work better than 15/40 10W30 viscous oil. cold viscous differential 5W may be lost in the variation between the oil standard and oil mix parts. pardon my rough language.

10-30 has a lot less VI additives in it than 15-40.

Don't need much (if any) VI in boat engines .. unless they are fire boats.

Sae /CCS‑viskositeetti cP/°C
10w / 7000-25 C°
15w/ 7000-20 C°




this fact. 10W vs 15W -5 ° C, the same fluidity or viscosity. if you start the machine even -10 degrees Celssius practical difference does not exist


oil W = mean winter

Ski in NC said:

I think it depends on oil temp when operating. What matters is the viscosity at temp, and 10w30 at 160F is probably thicker than 15w40 at 200F. I would need to look up the visc/temp charts to tell exactly. But viscosity changes drastically with temp...

Click to expand...

The Blackstone conversation was lacking in discussing operating temperature. Every four stroke engine I have owned specifies oil by operating temperature. For many people in the US, the temperatures are not at an extreme that requires an oil for winter and a different oil for summer. However, the big reason I use synthetics is to get a 0Wx40 or 5Wx40 oil that better covers seasonal temperatures. My truck really does not like starting when using a 15Wx40 oil when the temps are in the low 30s or below. All of my engines want a 40 weight oil when it is hot outside.

Which always made me ask how come so many diesels in an engine room are running 30 weight oil while my other engines running in lower temperatures outside an engine room need 40 weight oil? Which gets back to what Blackstone was saying...

Later,
Dan

My gas Acura MDX specifies 0-20 synthetic Pennzoil. Standard Acura power train warranty is 7 years and 100K miles. An industrial diesel seeing thousands of hours per year has very different needs and oil specifications. Best to follow the manufacturers' guidance in both cases.

But, given our very light use and low hour boat diesels it has been well established that any reasonable oil concoction and filter setup will work, until it doesn't.

I suppose it would be churlish to point out the irony of the Blackstone oil comment that contained the offhand reference to people's beliefs regarding oil. I would put it to you that there is more religious doctrine swirling about oil than there is about anchors, fuel filters and Donald Trump combined. Good luck getting people to change their lifetime's church experience.

Gotta love TF.

If an expert disagrees with one's thinking, it's BS.

If someone states something that some one doesn't agree with, too many say check with the experts.

Yep...gotta love it.

psneeld said:

Gotta love TF.

If an expert disagrees with one's thinking, it's BS.

If someone states something that some one doesn't agree with, too many say check with the experts.

Yep...gotta love it.

Click to expand...

I think the OEMs and Blackstone in large part are in agreement. In my industrial experience the same diesel equipment when used in a desert or near equatorial setting would have a warrantable oil spec different than the same engine and application used in the tar sands of Alberta. Additives and viscosity packages vary to meet conditions, fuel used and daily usage.

The key word is warranty. We had cradle to grave engine, driveline and genset warranties so long as lubricant specs and change intervals were met.

I've always been puzzled by many mfr's oil selection guides. They say pick a certain weight oil based on ambient temps. Use a 10w30 or 30 when it is cold, use a 15w40 or such when conditions are hot.

But most engines use coolant to cool or otherwise establish oil temps. Oil temp stays in a temp range that is dependent on load and almost immune to ambient temp!!!

Ambient temp does affect viscosity for startup, but differences in temp make more of a difference than the weight of oil selected.

And often the same engine is used for tractors or road vehicles as marine. Operating temp range very different. Yet most oil spec pages are identical copy and paste!!

I think it is generally laziness of the mfr's when it comes to refining the oil specs for the marine market. Just too small to warrant the effort.

I'd put more faith in the mfr's specs if they were defined like this:

SAE 30: Coldest start X deg F. Max operating oil temp Y deg F
SAE 10w30: Coldest start temp X deg F. Max operating oil temp Y deg F.
SAE 15w40: Yadda yadda
SAE 5W40: Yadda yadda
SAE 40: Yadda yadda...

So if engine is never below 50F and running oil temp is max 180F, then you pick the grade based on that.

Ski,
But w a boat the engine room is never below 50 and maybe 40 degrees. And running oil temp is never over 180 degrees.

This is my reasoning for straight 30w oil.

But the oil temp while running is determined by engine load in a diesel boat.

Since I know next to nothing about engines, I tend to stick with the recommendations of the engine manufacturer. I will also listen to knowledgeable sources, Blackstone being one, but the evidence has to be pretty compelling for me to move away from the mfg's recommendations.

I know this is like walking on thin ice, but here goes:

In regards viscosity only, a perfect oil:
Has same viscosity from cold start to full load.
Is the thinnest oil that can still give enough oil pressure when hot, both full rpm and idle rpm.
That's basically it.

Now, real world added in:
It takes a modern synthetic oil to contain viscosity modifiers that can support a wide viscosity index spread and keep stable between changes. Engine shear tends to kill viscosity modifiers, and that is why historically, boat engine manufacturers were slow to adopt other than straight weight oils. Boat engines run hard.
Engines have, over the years become more oil friendly, mostly due to roller cams, and low shear oil pumps, though these same engines can be more demanding for oil due to hotter run temperatures. (not as true for non-emission controlled engines).

Pleasure boats don't tend to have cold starts below freezing, unlike road engines that cold soak to much colder temperatures. Yes, ambient air temperature talk doesn't make much sense on boats, and really for OTR engines, only at start and warmup. Although OTR engines get some convective cooling, unlike boats.

But, all this aside, lots of folks have evidence that you can get away with far less than the most expensive oil on the shelf. I ran a car with only dino oil for 350k miles, about 6k hours. Same oil consumption as at 150k miles (1 qt per 2kmiles or so). Had great luck in gas inboards with straight 40, although I wouldn't use that oil north of the FL border. Most of my "cold starts" were at 80 - 90 degrees.
my 2cents.

And don't forget that some of the manufacturer's specs are based on engine design. Some engines take longer to get oil to critical areas.
I designed and developed camshafts for a few automotive engines and this was a factor.
Once the engine is running, then yes perhaps Blackstone's comments are valid.
But the bottom line is stick to what the manufacturer is recommending.

Nomad Willy said:

Ski,
But w a boat the engine room is never below 50 and maybe 40 degrees. And running oil temp is never over 180 degrees.

Click to expand...

Don't know what engine you're referring to but my Lehman manual states oil temps should be 165-230, both my engines run right around 190-195 during cruise. Diesel friends have told me around 200 is normal.

Ken

O C Diver said:

Saw that, think I'll stick with the manufacturer's recommendation. Other than cold climate starting, not really seeing an advantage. My Cummins 6BT in my Dodge pickup has 430,000 miles on it and doesn't use any oil or have metal wear issues in the oil analysis. Not sure how thinner oil will improve on that. Regarding cold weather, think it's far better to use a block heater than thin oil. That's what I did anyway, when I wintered in the NE.

Ted

Click to expand...

I think that the thinner oil is being used to get just a tad better MPG. It does not matter much for the individual but the automakers are trying to reach their government mandated fleet MPG requirements so every little bit of MPG helps.

I used to use a block heater but even with a timer to turn on the block heater, the power costs for the block heater would pay for using a 0Wx40 or 5Wx40 oil instead of 15Wx40. So I put in the "better" oil and no longer use the block heater.

With the 0Wx40 and 5Wx40 oil I did see a .1-.3 MPG increase which one of the oil companies said should happen.

Later,
Dan

Greetings,
Mr. d. How in the heck can you calculate .1-.3 MPG difference? Not trying to be nasty but .1 mile is just over 500'.

kchace said:

Don't know what engine you're referring to but my Lehman manual states oil temps should be 165-230, both my engines run right around 190-195 during cruise. Diesel friends have told me around 200 is normal.

Ken

Click to expand...

Ken and all so sorry,
A misprint. I was talking about coolant temp.

Don't know anything about my lube oil temp. Seems very hot when I change it. I've heard 170 degrees F for lube oil but I would imagine higher would seem better as per your numbers posted.
My engine is a Mitsubishi S4L2 37hp industrial unit normally found on small front end loaders and farm/garden tractors. Mine was marineized by Klassen.

I stand w RT and wonder how that would be possible. Just a computer readout much like the mpg readouts on auto instruments. HaHa that may be the source. Always wondered the accuracy of those things but recently think they are better than I had thought they were on my 1990 Eldorado. Re the outside temp indicators I thought they should heat up at a stoplight but the don't seem to.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. d. How in the heck can you calculate .1-.3 MPG difference? Not trying to be nasty but .1 mile is just over 500'.

Click to expand...

I have kept the MPG of every vehicle I have owned and recorded very gallon. I log when I change the oil and what oil is used so it was easy to track if I got a bit more MPG. Since I drive the same route every danged day, it is easy to see if I got a boost in MPG.

Later,
Dan

dannc said:

I used to use a block heater but even with a timer to turn on the block heater, the power costs for the block heater would pay for using a 0Wx40 or 5Wx40 oil instead of 15Wx40. So I put in the "better" oil and no longer use the block heater.

With the 0Wx40 and 5Wx40 oil I did see a .1-.3 MPG increase which one of the oil companies said should happen.

Later,
Dan

Click to expand...

I use the block heater (with time clock) for 3 hours before start when temperatures are expected below 40 degrees. My block heater costs $0.15 per hour to run. My truck batteries last 7 years on average because they don't work hard in the winter either. When it's zero out, I can turn the key and be heading down the road in under a minute.....with cabin heat to follow shortly.

With a MPG of 22 to 25, .1-.3 MPG increase doesn't excite me.

Ted

psneeld said:

Gotta love TF.

If an expert disagrees with one's thinking, it's BS.

If someone states something that some one doesn't agree with, too many say check with the experts.

Yep...gotta love it.

Click to expand...

On the Internet, we can be whatever we want to be. We can all be experts.

And that goes for the original post as well. "Experts" don't always agree with each other.

Not really.....

This is a forum .. not a clearing house for scientific proven beyond a doubt conclusive information.

More like a bunch of ideas gleamed from every bodies ideas thrown into the "pot" for all to sift out what sounds interesting and enjoy the other ideas and conversation. Experiencing some positive more or less social enjoyment in the process is a big plus for many.

If one follows this thinking "If an expert disagrees with one's thinking, it's BS." why even bother to think? Would serve no purpose and limit ones intake to information only.

Passing thought ..... A great deal of the time experts disagree widely on opinions and fact.

Sorta....