Older and 1st tier or newer but 2nd tier...

So I think many like me who are deciding what trawler to buy are considering this: Assuming you have a $300k budget and all else is the same as far as number of hours on engine and overall well maintained. Do you opt for an older tier 1 boat or newer tier 2 boat? Trawler would be used for coastal, ICW and occasional Bahamas trip.

I am ignorant as to what tier 1 and tier 2 mean in this context.

I was hoping not to have to mention specific brands. With all due respect if you don't know then you can't answer the question. There's obviously better quality boats then others just like autos. Maybe the question is too sensitive to ask as we all can be quite bias to what we own. If someone can chime in without naming names I would appreciate it otherwise maybe I should withdraw the question if I can.

I think most would agree that the most important thing is the condition of the specific boat in question. That trumps a lot of age/hrs questions.

But to your question, I would probably favor the higher quality boat (what I think you mean by tier I vs tier II), even if the boat is older.

Brand or 'make' names are nowhere near as important in boats as they might be with cars, as overall condition and how well maintained they are is the more important issue.

I would therefore suggest you realign your tier 1 & 2 to be more like...
tier 1 = older but bigger, and perhaps more extensively equiped, and...
tier 2 as newer, so therefore to come within budget, smaller and maybe less well equiped in terms of extra goodies like electric davits, radar, etc.

If that seems a better fit, then you might well apply the general wisdom of the forum which appears to be, "buy the newest vessel your budget will allow for that is big enough to do what you expect and wish to do with it. Bearing in mind that the smaller the vessel, the newer it can be and still stay within budget.

The flip side to that is if you want larger, better equiped and a brand thought of as 'higher quality', you are not only looking at much older, but virtually everything you have to do or have done will cost a lot more than smaller.
Just sayin'...after seeing twisted's post above...

I think the assigned tiers are so often rumor and hearsay and nothing based on reality. Do you assign Bayliner to Tier 2? I sure see Bayliner owners having fewer problems than many boats you might assign to Tier 1. The initial price of the boat may well reflect luxury materials or ability to cross oceans but have nothing to do with quality and anticipated problems.

Greetings,
Mr. NJ. Tier 1 or tier 2 diesels? Go ahead. Mention specific brands. I have no idea what you're trying to pussyfoot around. I've never heard of boat brands being refereed to as tiered...

I'm guessin' he is referrin' to the newer all electronic engines as compared to the older mechanical diesels. As a firm believer in KISS, I'd stick with the all mechanical engines.

So with everything being equal price, # of helms, heads, staterooms engines (# and brand) etc you would not take one manufacturer over another or just flip a coin?

NewbieFromNJ said:

I was hoping not to have to mention specific brands. With all due respect if you don't know then you can't answer the question. There's obviously better quality boats then others just like autos. Maybe the question is too sensitive to ask as we all can be quite bias to what we own. If someone can chime in without naming names I would appreciate it otherwise maybe I should withdraw the question if I can.

Click to expand...

Ah... I see what you are after now.

I would go with a more modern tier 2 rather than an older tier 1.

NewbieFromNJ said:

So with everything being equal price, # of helms, heads, staterooms engines (# and brand) etc you would not take one manufacturer over another or just flip a coin?

Click to expand...

Irrelevant question, because when it comes the crunch, the boat chooses you, not the other way round. A boating way of saying, you & yours, (if there is a yours), will fall for one more than the others, and it kinda says to you..."buy me, not that other one...you know you like me better", and you're gone...

Greetings,
Mr. NJ. Ahhh, I see what you're getting at. The problem is two vessels may be "equal" using the criteria you list in post #9 but two vessels, even sister ships, are never equal. Brand name has little to do with it in a LOT of cases IMO.
Is a Grand Banks better built than a Marine Trader? Most probably. Is a Grand Banks a "wetter" boat under certain sea conditions than a Marine Trader? I've heard it is. So, if I was comparing a GB and a MT as to price, helms, heads, staterooms and engines all being equal, which one would be a "better" boat? The one that had been given the best maintenance! Don't get hung up on brand names. As Mr. PB so aptly states, the boat will pick you.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. NJ. Ahhh, I see what you're getting at. The problem is two vessels may be "equal" using the criteria you list in post #9 but two vessels, even sister ships, are never equal. Brand name has little to do with it in a LOT of cases IMO.
Is a Grand Banks better built than a Marine Trader? Most probably. Is a Grand Banks a "wetter" boat under certain sea conditions than a Marine Trader? I've heard it is. So, if I was comparing a GB and a MT as to price, helms, heads, staterooms and engines all being equal, which one would be a "better" boat? The one that had been given the best maintenance! Don't get hung up on brand names. As Mr. PB so aptly states, the boat will pick you.

Click to expand...

Thanks RT, that was helpful.

I see what the OP means... He is being Very polite.

With $300,000 on the table he is asking if he is better off with a older boat like a Grand Banks for example, or a newer boat like a Bayliner or Mainship.

That is a tough one...

Five years ago we had the exact same delemia. Do we buy a older example of a originally more expensive brand boat or a newer less expensive brand boat.

After all no matter your finances pretty much all of us have a finite supply of dollars.

We went with the newer, less expensive brand. A Bayliner 4788 pilothouse. We felt like the advances in technology in the boating world were something we wanted. Big things like no teak decks, and no balsa cored decks. Newer generation engines. Little things like solid surface counters Vs the old standby Formica. Molded fiberglass in the heads, vs built by hand.

Same money could have bought us almost any 1980's boat of the same size on the market. Pick your brand.

Was that a good choice??? I don't know. But it's the choice we made and here we are.

Best of luck!

I think there is good advice here, but I'd answer it by saying condition and proof of maintenance are factors #1 and #2, and simplicity/ repairability/ cost of parts is #3. All other things equal, complex, hard to work, or hard to maintain systems would knock a contender off the list. **** WILL break.

Prestigious brand name can help with resale, certainly, but savvy buyers I think might use the thinking provided in these replies, and be looking more to the level of condition you have maintained the boat to.

I was thinking of saying "Lehmans are PT,ie pre tier. Now I understand.
You`ll get arguments about what is T1 and 2. After that, it`s quite possible a great T2 beats a so so T1.
A 1981 Defever48 recently advertised had pics like a 10yo boat. Tier1 for sure, but older. Beauty before age?
Newer T2 boats have their own appeal, in general newer is good, newer less used means more use left for you,but some new may not be very nice. Old, with quality and condition, may best it.
Recognize both T1 & 2 have advantages and disadvantages, balance those, look at boats in both tiers, exclude neither tier, at least initially, until you have a feel for what works for you. And be ready to spot appealing exceptions,from either tier.

Rather than look at brands, look at function. What do you want the boat to do and what do you want to do with the boat. In other words, who will be using it, how will it be used, where will it be used, and when. Then look at what you like and what you don't. If you can answer all those then the right boat will start to make itself know.

FWIW, my own opinion is that there are some manufacturers that have a stellar reputation. However, that does not mean that other manufacturers which don't enjoy that same reputation produce inferior boats.

Greetings,
Probably the best advice thus far...

1 or 2

I believe he is discussing which type Diesel engine.

# 1 - is full mechanical Fuel Injection engine.

# 2 - is only electronic injection.

Since boats in general & electrical & salt water in close proximity can have issues, I would always go with the mechanical Diesel Injection.

You will gain some efficiency with the electronic system.

You will have better reliability with the mechanical system.

All things being equal. ( Which they never are) .

I believe, IMHO, your diesel engine in an off shore trawler style boat, once it is started, should require NO electricity of any kind to keep it running.

That means, No electrical solenoids or relays held open by electric power & no electric fuel pumps, etc..so if your alternator goes out & your batteries get flooded & you have no electrical items working & absolutely no electrical power available from any source, the engine - provided the mechanical fuel pump still is operational & tanks are filled adequately for trip & clean fuel, - should keep running till you get to your destination.

That can only be done with a mechanical system.

So that is how my boat is set up.

Hope that helps.

m.

alfamike said:

I believe he is discussing which type Diesel engine.
.

Click to expand...

I don't think that's what he's after at all. I think he's talking level of boat as indicated by pricing and/or reputation. That's why he said he didn't want to mention brand in his next post. It would be good if he made it clear what he means.

Why don't more folk read the preceding posts before clicking on post, and they'd save themselves quite a bit of typing quite often as it has already been said, or they will at least be up with the play, with a clearer idea of what the OP is after..? Just sayin'

NewbieFromNJ, when deciding between a tier 1 and tier 2 engine (assuming both are in good operating condition) you may wish to consider where you plan to cruise and truly how many hours you'll be putting on her.

If you compare T1 versus T2 on the same manufacturer (say John Deere) you'll see the older one with a typical efficiency of 17.5 hp/g-hr versus about 21 hp/g-hr for the new technology (assuming it is turbocharged). That difference of 15%-20% might or might not make a difference.

T1 is free of any electrical system. Install a spring starter, take her to the arctic and Bob's your uncle!

T2 is still extremely dependable especially compared to today's T3 (microprocessor controlled with dozens of sensors to go bad).

Tough decision on your part and depends on the condition of both boats. Me personally I always believe newer is better. Old boats with disgusting bilges and fungus in the closets really gross me out. Old interior styling with dark wood everywhere, versus more modern with lighter interiors.

Let us know which way you go.

The thread didn't really start about just engines......

Not that engines aren't important...but the question was really about buying a newer boat or an older boat for similar asking prices but of different build qualities (as well as those can be defined).

Not just about engine tier ratings.

Most boats will do the service the owner wants to do.

So the question them becomes weather boat work is a delight or done by paid help.

The best boats will have close to a Zero Round Trip , the difference between cost and selling price.

Operating costs/dockage/insurance don't count , "up grades " like electric toys seldom add value ,buy installing a hyd windlass to replace an electric one might.

To cross oceans the boat will probably be very (300% ) expensive buy to put the ICW , run the Loop, or just get to the islands most any boat with good range will do.

$300K great, but $35K might do as well.

Depends mostly if the boat needs to be a showplace of your lifestyle , or a means of transportation .

NewbieFromNJ said:

So I think many like me who are deciding what trawler to buy are considering this: Assuming you have a $300k budget and all else is the same as far as number of hours on engine and overall well maintained. Do you opt for an older tier 1 boat or newer tier 2 boat? Trawler would be used for coastal, ICW and occasional Bahamas trip.

Click to expand...

Brand would be a less important factor, for me.

Features, features, features. Does it have what we want? That can include tangibles (staterooms, heads, bridge, engines, whatever) and some less tangible features (access to systems for maintenance, etc.).

Condition, condition, condition. Has it been well-maintained? Records?

Cost (relative to our budget) probably has to rear it's ugly head, eventually.

Once candidates bass through those filters... brand might matter. A little. Not necessarily just reputation, but are they still in business?, do they offer on-going support?, etc.

Even then, the boat that speaks to us likely wins.

-Chris

Ksanders, you nailed it. Sorry if my question was ambiguous. However being so, the replies received went beyond what I was asking and turned out very helpful.

if that tier 1 and tier 2 is the approach angle of the boat acquisition, then the Tier 2 engine is more flexible way loading it. you can drive at low kieroksilla for a long time and the machine will not carbonize and the like. For example, if you have an SD or planing hull. If the vessel is FD and the machine rated at OK not the great importance of the option you choose. But you can not be serious about this kritéria tier you choose the boat, because, as previously said, more is definitely more important points to consider and choose a suitable boat for you.

I have given this a lot of thought since buying our first trawler a year ago. We were previously sailors. We had put our ceiling at the $200K level. We wanted to have it all, which to me meant hydraulic stabilizers and plenty of room. We settled for a 2003 OA 456 that had been retrofitted by previous owners into a helicopter carrier.

The previous owners had done a lot to the boat, some good, some bad, some so, so. They threw away the mast and put in a radar arch in the front and installed a hardtop that lowers hydraulically so that the helicopter blades would clear the roof. They added:
-hydraulic stabilizers
-rocker stoppers for stabilization at anchor
-an additional 6kw northern lights gen set - in addition to the 12 kw northern lights on board
-two 18KW ACs in the flybridge
-ice maker in fly bridge in addtion to the icemaker in the salon
-corian counters in heads and galley
-micro commander electronic throttles
-24-volt bow thruster
-sat tv
-sat telephone
two televisions - one of which is a pop up in the salon
- two spare propellors
- a supply of service spares that will last me literally years
- oil change pump
- fuel polishing system
- 4 plugs for 24-volt fishing reels in the rear cockpit
- 12-foot dinghy and nearly new 15hp yamaha
- 12 volt watermaker
- Backup radar (go figure)

In short I got a lot of features for the money. But I also recognized that the boat would require lots of work and sweat equity to bring her back to a somewhat representative state. The owners had altered the trunk cabin to accommodate the helicopter. It took me four weeks of cutting and sanding and filling and more sanding and more filling to get the trunk cabin deck faired right.

I am now in the process of painting the boat (OAs gelcoat during this period was extremely poor). I am working with the painter and thus keeping my costs as low as possible. I think in the end, we are going to have a gorgeous boat and will have a low investment compared to what it might have taken to get a boat of like age, accoutrement, (low hours on the engines) and utility.

However, As I was sweating in my protective suit and air mask, reforming the trunk cabin, I wondered if I would have been better off buying a more expensive boat that was ready to go. Time will tell.

When we bought our boat, a friend boat a 98 KK 48 for I think about $450K (guessing at this). The boat is perfect in every way. The boat looks new inside and out. The PO really new how to care for a boat. The word anal comes to mind.

I suspect that after 10 years my friend's KK will have a residual value of $300$ - $350K while my boat maybe $125 - $150. I suspect we will have both lost about the same amount of money after 10 years of use. I am of course making up these figures, and we will have to see, but, perhaps a larger initial outlay would have given me less work, same amount of boat, and in the end, I would have ended up in the same place. (This thought does not include opportunity costs for me investing the $250K during the same period, however. For many this will not be a consideration.)

One thing I have learned about boating through the years, and I am now on my third boat, is that buying a boat is easy, and selling a boat can be hard. A KK will probably sell easier than an Ocean Alexander. Whether KKs are superior boats, is a subjective judgement and depends on how you plan to use it. But what I know, is that the market perceives KKs to be superior, regardless of my thoughts, and that will provide a higher resale, all other things being equal. (Truth be told, I like most things about my boat and prefer my layout to the KK. I also like the idea that I can go 15 knots if I need to while he might be able to go 8 knots. I spent two weeks on a friends newer 48 foot KK taking her from Norfolk, to Miami, and so have some idea about the boat.)

Buying boats is an emotional thing. If you are a boat person, boats will speak to you. You will instantly recognize the beauty of your new boat and feel proud when you approach her from the dock. You will love the aesthetics of your chosen boat, from the color to the way the bow cuts the water. You will love the rumble of the diesel starting and the hum she makes when under power.


This is a bit of a ramble, but provides, I think, some food for thought. Buy the boat you want, but remember that you will put a lot of money into the boat and that eventually you will want to sell.

I would never buy a boat that did not speak to me, but I also would not buy a boat I think would not resell when I am done.

Also remember that the quality issue is really one of perception. Most builders buy the same components.

Gordon

Greetings,
Mr. GJ. Well said!

Yes, we on TF are polite when referring to lesser quality vessels as it is so much budget, care and mission related. The best of vessels (yes there are best vessels) in uncaring hands becomes an albatross. Lesser quality vessels (these exist too) in the right hands can be gems.

Here is a starter and debate making teaser in my 15 second quality look - are the air intakes on the side of the hull vs inboard away from salt spray. The list goes on to include 30 second things like beefy rub rails, is the cabin top tied to the cabin sides screwed and glued or a seamless joint, are deck hand railings stout, do the decks have good sized scuppers? After 45 seconds does the boat appear top heavy with all sorts of crap up top? At 55 seconds I have by now noted noted the anchor and windlass.

In one minute my mind starts to sense builders intent and presumed quality. But, not necessarily owner's care which as oft mentioned becomes really important as doors opened and innards exposed.

The quality issue is quite simple if one remembers a Supreme Court justice saying, regarding the legal definition of pornography, "I will know when I see it."