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Some of the last few posts are about space. I don't mean having a 20'x20' master stateroom or having enough space for storage, which is VERY important, but having different spaces for people to use on the boat.

My father had a 33 foot sailboat back in the day and we sometimes would have as many as five adults on the boat. That was kinda tight but we were lucky in that the weather was always good and we somehow found a space place to get out of each other's way. This worked for a week but for more than a week, or with bad weather, this would NOT have worked at all.

The boat designs we like, and want, have quite a few spaces. Engine room, pilot house, galley, saloon, forward cabin(s), master stateroom, cockpit and maybe a fly bridge. Some of the spaces can be quite small by modern house standards, or even boat standards, but they are still usable and allow people there own space.

One does not need space to only get away from others but the more spaces on the boat makes the boat feel bigger.

Later,
Dan
 
dannc said:
Some of the last few posts are about space. I don't mean having a 20'x20' master stateroom or having enough space for storage, which is VERY important, but having different spaces for people to use on the boat.

My father had a 33 foot sailboat back in the day and we sometimes would have as many as five adults on the boat. That was kinda tight but we were lucky in that the weather was always good and we somehow found a space place to get out of each other's way. This worked for a week but for more than a week, or with bad weather, this would NOT have worked at all.

The boat designs we like, and want, have quite a few spaces. Engine room, pilot house, galley, saloon, forward cabin(s), master stateroom, cockpit and maybe a fly bridge. Some of the spaces can be quite small by modern house standards, or even boat standards, but they are still usable and allow people there own space.

One does not need space to only get away from others but the more spaces on the boat makes the boat feel bigger.

Later,
Dan
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A space that brings a lot of debate is bow space. Some now use it for sun pads and some have a seating area. It comes in quite handy if you're docked stern in or stern to. It also serves as another sitting area and if there's more than one couple on board, one couple can sit there and relax as the sun sets. Even the sun pads are nice for lounging. This is a space that just isn't used on a lot of boats.
 
markpierce said:
Is there room on a boat for a model railroad?
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Now you're talking. This is my other bad habit, and no they won't run on a boat. At least they won't stay on the tracks.

mike
 
Great questions, and although the answer to each is very much an individual preference that you will ultimately have to answer yourself, I think it's good to hear what trade-offs other have made, and why.

We are not live-aboards, where "I have no other home" is the definition of live-aboard. But we are on our boat for months at a time. 95% of the time it's just the two of us, and 5% with 1-3 guests. We also spend 80-90% of our cruising time at anchor, so want complete self sufficiency.

As to over-all size, we had a 47' Grand Banks for a number of years adn loved it for coastal cruising, but for months at a time we found it a bit too tight. The 60' boat we have now is a good compromise for us between space and the work involved in keeping it all clean and operational.

Two heads are mandatory for us. We just don't like to have people lining up, like the redundancy of two heads, and like having an ensuite head for us, which also means we don't want people traipsing through our stateroom to use it if it can be avoided. When we have guests, they can have their own head.

Same for staterooms. Two is a minimum. We want our guests to be comfortable, and we don't want them taking up the salon or other common space. It makes it more comfortable for everyone.

Another aspect of the heads is the shower setup. A separate shower is also mandatory for us. We don't want to deal with a wet head. Been there, done that, and prefer not o deal with it.

Another thing that's mandatory for us are full function washer and dryer. We had a Splendide combo on the Grand Banks and it certainly worked, but separate units, fully vented makes laundry so much more convenient.
I think the bottom line is that when we are on our boat for multiple months, we don't want to be camping. And we don't want guests to feel like they are camping. We want to feel like we are at home. It's a small home, but just as comfortable.

For me, and stand-up engine room is really not the important objective. Accessibility is what really matters. I'd much rather bend over and be able to get to everything, than be able to standup in the middle, but not have access to half the equipment. Our "standup engine room" probably have 1 sq foot where it is stand up, and the rest is bend-over. But that's fine because I can get to everything. I prefer not to be crawling, but bending over is fine. But at the end of the day, accessibility is the most important things to me.

as for size, that's a tough one. I think around 40'-45' the features that matter to us start to be available. From there it's over just about elbow room. I'm pretty big, so definitely like to have some elbow room. That put us in the 55'-60' range. But I've got a bit of Nordhavn 68 envy, mostly because of the extra space.
 
twistedtree said:
Another aspect of the heads is the shower setup. A separate shower is also mandatory for us. We don't want to deal with a wet head. Been there, done that, and prefer not o deal with it.

Another thing that's mandatory for us are full function washer and dryer. We had a Splendide combo on the Grand Banks and it certainly worked, but separate units, fully vented makes laundry so much more convenient.
I think the bottom line is that when we are on our boat for multiple months, we don't want to be camping. And we don't want guests to feel like they are camping. We want to feel like we are at home. It's a small home, but just as comfortable.

.
Click to expand...

I definitely see it as a second home and needing the basic conveniences of one. We second, third and take to infinity your comments on dry vs wet shower. I see most small boats today having separate stalls, but in past years some large boats didn't. To add to that it must be large enough to fit comfortably, to fit normal and above normal sized people.

I also agree strongly with your Splendide comments. If you must have a combo and no other choice on a boat, pull the Splendide out and replace with Miele. They have approximately double the capacity. Our last boat came with a Splendide combo and we immediately replaced it. Now, we did some movement of walls to fit regular equipment in. Stacked, even full size units don't take up that much more room.
 
Questions would be:
· -How long does the average couple actually spend in the live aboard and cruising lifestyle, 2 years, 6 years, 15 years, all of the above?

All of above, I have 35 years living, working and cruising and my family, 5 and we're not back at a house never, ever in our life...


· -For couples who actually do this successfully for many years, is there a minimum and maximum size boat that you typically see them in? The minimalists, such as Captain John, advise “buying the absolute smallest boat that you can live with”. However, he does not boat with a spouse who also has to be happy with the accommodations, and seems to rarely have guests. On the other side, the “bigger is better crowd” advocate buying for comfort and accessibility. However, it seems that the extremists on that side often spend most of their time in marinas, actually cruise very little, may have more boat than 2 people enjoy handling, and may have difficulty finding slips when they do travel. So what size range of boat do you typically see successful liveaboard cruising couples in?

Something between 40 to 60 feet are perfect for mostly people who want to liveaboard and cruising. I'm not going below 40' for any reason

· -One stateroom or two? Does a second full sized stateroom make it more likely that family and friends will come to visit for a week or weeks, or does the second stateroom wind up being just used as extra storage space?

Second stateroom is perfect for summer family vacation or ocasional crew or visit friends or.. endless possibilities

· -One Head or Two? Does a second head provide a worthwhile more enjoyable experience with guests, act as a good emergency head, or is it really unnecessary?

Definitely 2 heads is a really good idea...

· -Is a stand up engine room worth it, especially as we age, or is putting on a pair of knee pads, opening a hatch in the floor, and climbing down a short ladder not really that bad? For stand up thinking KK44, Defever 45 aft, Great Harbor 37, 47. For less height in the engine room thinking Helmsman 38E, 44, or Swift 34, 44.

YES! Unless you're have enough money to keep paying for your mechanic, better a huge engine room

Any other things that should be considered by someone who has not yet taken the plunge from those who have?

Be confortable.. not just with the boat, with the marina, your neighbors, the parking, winters on board.. there are thousand of little things you need to be confortable in order to spend a life at the water.. good luck!!

Thanks very much.

Your welcome!
 
Kaz,
Your questions can be answered by hundreds of folks on the forum. I would recommend you look into the MTOA forum and AGLCA forum for more answers. For us, we attended a lot of boat shows, climbed on a lot of boats and one day looked at each other and said "Yes". We have lived aboard 9 yrs and when we will move back to land - who knows. For US, we wanted a boat we could live in - not camp. We ended up with two queen size berths, household appliances including an apartment size stacked washer dryer and three heads (we have had all three not working...long story). I could not recommend a boat for my best friends any more that I could pick carpet, wall paper or drapes for their house.
We made a list of Must Have, Likes, Dislikes and used that list when shopping for a boat. Some items changed over time, and one boat that I said I would never own, I changed my mind on after talking with owners and spending a week on one.
I wish the best of luck in your search.
 
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Kaz said:
· -How long does the average couple actually spend in the liveaboard and cruising lifestyle, 2 years, 6 years, 15 years, all of the above?

We are in year 5 of living and working aboard 24/7/365. No dirt address (I don't count the storage unit...). We have no idea how long we will go, but we do wonder if our daughter will leave this watery nest or a dirt one when she goes off to college. She just turned 2 when we moved aboard, and will be 7 in a couple months. We know many couples/families/singles who have been living aboard for 10, 15, 20 years or more. And we're talking happy liveabaords who continue to love the lifestyle. We know probably the same number who tried it and didn't last more than a few years. But of all those that tried and found it wasn't for them, I don't think any of them regret giving it a whirl.

· -For couples who actually do this successfully for many years, is there a minimum and maximum size boat that you typically see them in? ...what size range of boat do you typically see successful liveaboard cruising couples in?

Seems to me the "average" liveaboard would be in the 40-50' range. Not too big to singlehand if necessary, yet still provide enough room for the aforementioned "spaces" each of you can retreat to if need be.

· -One stateroom or two? Does a second full sized stateroom make it more likely that family and friends will come to visit for a week or weeks, or does the second stateroom wind up being just used as extra storage space?

If you have a second stateroom you will likely end up using it for either temporary or "can't-find-anywhere-else-to-put-this" storage. And should guests enter the equation, you will find yourself locating all sorts of temporary-temporary places to put stuff in order to accommodate a few more people. I'll also echo what others said in terms of storage, in that it will fill up rather quickly. Good storage is vital for the liveaboard.

· -One Head or Two? Does a second head provide a worthwhile more enjoyable experience with guests, act as a good emergency head, or is it really unnecessary?

You've heard the old saying: "Two heads are better than one"!

· -Is a stand up engine room worth it, especially as we age, or is putting on a pair of knee pads, opening a hatch in the floor, and climbing down a short ladder not really that bad? For stand up thinking KK44, Defever 45 aft, Great Harbor 37, 47. For less height in the engine room thinking Helmsman 38E, 44, or Swift 34, 44.
Any other things that should be considered by someone who has not yet taken the plunge from those who have? Thanks very much.
Click to expand...

We have a full height stand up ER and I every time I step in there I am so thankful!
 
twistedtree said:
For me, and stand-up engine room is really not the important objective. Accessibility is what really matters. I'd much rather bend over and be able to get to everything, than be able to standup in the middle, but not have access to half the equipment. Our "standup engine room" probably have 1 sq foot where it is stand up, and the rest is bend-over. But that's fine because I can get to everything. I prefer not to be crawling, but bending over is fine. But at the end of the day, accessibility is the most important things to me.
Click to expand...


Very well-stated distinction. "Accessibility" -- to all portions of machinery and systems that need maintenance -- is the key. "Stand-up" may or may not provide that.

-Chris
 
twistedtree said:
Great questions, and although the answer to each is very much an individual preference that you will ultimately have to answer yourself, I think it's good to hear what trade-offs other have made, and why.

We are not live-aboards, where "I have no other home" is the definition of live-aboard. But we are on our boat for months at a time. 95% of the time it's just the two of us, and 5% with 1-3 guests. We also spend 80-90% of our cruising time at anchor, so want complete self sufficiency.

As to over-all size, we had a 47' Grand Banks for a number of years adn loved it for coastal cruising, but for months at a time we found it a bit too tight. The 60' boat we have now is a good compromise for us between space and the work involved in keeping it all clean and operational.

Two heads are mandatory for us. We just don't like to have people lining up, like the redundancy of two heads, and like having an ensuite head for us, which also means we don't want people traipsing through our stateroom to use it if it can be avoided. When we have guests, they can have their own head.

Same for staterooms. Two is a minimum. We want our guests to be comfortable, and we don't want them taking up the salon or other common space. It makes it more comfortable for everyone.

Another aspect of the heads is the shower setup. A separate shower is also mandatory for us. We don't want to deal with a wet head. Been there, done that, and prefer not o deal with it.

Another thing that's mandatory for us are full function washer and dryer. We had a Splendide combo on the Grand Banks and it certainly worked, but separate units, fully vented makes laundry so much more convenient.
I think the bottom line is that when we are on our boat for multiple months, we don't want to be camping. And we don't want guests to feel like they are camping. We want to feel like we are at home. It's a small home, but just as comfortable.

For me, and stand-up engine room is really not the important objective. Accessibility is what really matters. I'd much rather bend over and be able to get to everything, than be able to standup in the middle, but not have access to half the equipment. Our "standup engine room" probably have 1 sq foot where it is stand up, and the rest is bend-over. But that's fine because I can get to everything. I prefer not to be crawling, but bending over is fine. But at the end of the day, accessibility is the most important things to me.

as for size, that's a tough one. I think around 40'-45' the features that matter to us start to be available. From there it's over just about elbow room. I'm pretty big, so definitely like to have some elbow room. That put us in the 55'-60' range. But I've got a bit of Nordhavn 68 envy, mostly because of the extra space.
Click to expand...

If those are the "requirements", you've just priced most folks out of living on a boat.

Just as in living on land, different folks have different requirements or expectations based on their available income and lifestyle. In my part of the country, there are people (families) living in $30K mobile homes and there are folks living in $30M mansions. I know of a guy who used to live on a 26' former sailboat anchored in the harbor who commuted to his job in a canoe. I doubt he had a shower and I suspect his head was a bucket that was dumped at night. No washer or dryer.

If someone wants to live on a boat, their financial reality will determine how many staterooms, how many heads, how much storage space, etc. It's not "one size fits all".
 
Upon rereading of your first post, you discuss buying a smaller house on the Chesapeake.

Unless you are deciding to rent it out as a source of income or future escape.....your "plunge" is really only a step and until everything you own is aboard with the exception of a car.....it really isn't a "plunge".

Even after 5 years of steady liveaboard with no dirt attachments, and almost 12 years total in life....I am looking at small RVs to enhance what I have and accommodate seeing family and friends who don't live near the coast.

Gathering info that best fits your situation is good....worrying about the Uber rich or Uber poor is just something I assume serious boaters here have already figured out.

It is rare that people buying liveaboards don't understand their own finances, just what the hidden costs and future dissapointments from not buying right might be.

Ultimately you have to match your wants, desires and budget to what people's advice is...and I believe I posted before that the younger the move the more flexibility one usually musters. Otherwise make sure you not only pick what you want, but envision one or both becoming partially disabled, or a significant economic hit, etc......

While I probably could have waited a year or two before buying my trawler...my own personal experience and situation warranted a throw away boat. If in 20 years it brings me a few pennies back on the dollar...great...if I have to spend 30 grand pulling the good equipment out and putting the rest in a dumpster...so be it. Economically and spiritually I know I beat the odds.
 
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psneeld said:
While I probably could have waited a year or two before buying my trawler...my own personal experience and situation warranted a throw away boat. If in 20 years it brings me a few pennies back on the dollar...great...if I have to spend 30 grand pulling the good equipment out and putting the rest in a dumpster...so be it. Economically and spiritually I know I beat the odds.
Click to expand...

Amen brutha!!!! There is a lot of "value" in living aboard that you cannot put on the balance sheet!!! Great post!
 
"One Head or Two? Does a second head provide a worthwhile more enjoyable experience with guests, act as a good emergency head, or is it really unnecessary?" Think of the boat just like your current home. Don't you appreciate the privacy of your own bathroom, without guests coming in and using it? Personally I don't even like my kids using my bathroom (what a mess afterwards!).

However, if your budget/boat size doesn't support two heads then it's better if the head is in a different room than the vanities/shower. That way someone taking a long shower does not hold up others who have to go.
"Is a stand up engine room worth it?" I flew to Turkey to visit a boat builder and the dang thing had exactly 4ft of headroom, which was 1 inch too short for me to even sit on a low stool. What a waste of money for a flight and hotel, but worth every penny! For long term usage forget about anything that is "sole buried." My previous boat had 5ft of headroom, not exactly standing, but sorta hunched over isn't bad and it eliminates crawling on your hands and knees.

The right vessel... if this is your first large boat or the first time you'll be spending a long period onboard, then you might consider this first purchase as an interim step. Get something smaller and cheaper by all means. Live on it for a couple of years until you can determine exactly what you want in a vessel. Then move up in size afterwards, hopefully without any significant loss of money.

There is the very wise saying about buying the smallest boat possible that fits your needs. However, in my opinion for living aboard or distant cruising then the bigger the better.

Good luck.
 
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The hassles I have seen with a "big" liveaboard is that folks never use it enough to be comfortable operating it.

There is the same TMS (too much stuff) hassle with a 30 fter and a 70 fter , always a project to clear up and get RFS (ready for sea).

With more volume there are frequently more systems , so more things undergoing maint on the larger boats.More reason to never move.

Lived aboard full time for 22+ years in NYC , so got to watch lots of boaters.

Spent every vacation underway , and went out for a sail on New Years Day , regardless of the weather, just to wave at the marine motorists slip bound ,still 4 months from removing their winter covers.

Bigger is better IF you need the size for your operation.

But an echo in the main salon serves no purpose.
 
I too would like to weigh in on this discussion. My husband and I decided to transition from sail to power 4 years ago. We had finally reached the age that we wanted to be warm, dry and comfortable!

Cruising does not have to be an all or nothing decision. With a home, children and grandchildren in Southern California we wanted to be present in their lives. Our solution was to buy a trawler, keep it in the Pacific Northwest and cruise from May to October, returning to our land home for the rest of the year. The advantages have been that we are enjoying a fantastic cruising area at the best time of year and it provides a whole new venue to share with family and friends.

After spending a year looking at many trawlers, both new and previously owned, we decided on building a new Kadey Krogen 44. Our decision to purchase a new or fairly new boat was that, given our age at the time--65--we wanted a reliable boat that we would not have to spend more time fixing than cruising.

We have not regretted our choice. There is enough room to comfortably cruise with another couple and still enough room for 2 grandchildren (the pilot house settee makes into a "double ") and our 2nd stateroom has a queen size bed. We only have 1 head. Would we like two--it would be nice, but not necessary. After all, this is a boat--not the Hilton! The engine room has great access, but it is not stand up. Hasn't been an issue at all. We have not had a problem with getting a slip in marinas or anchoring in small harbors given our size. The two of us can easily handle the boat. Would not change a thing about our choice.
 
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Of course cruising isn't all or nothing.


Even liveaboards fall into 2 or more categories. :thumb:
 
Meaning the generally accepted major categories of dirt free and still with real estate.
 
psneeld said:
Meaning the generally accepted major categories of dirt free and still with real estate.
Click to expand...

Wifey B: i know...that's the basics, you either have a land home or don't. Still I've run across some strange permutations. One retired couple was adamant that unlike us they were full time liveaboards. Then found out they spent mid-October to mid-January at their daughter's home with her, husband and grand children, even had their own apartment and private entrance in the home. And they'd visit for 2-4 weeks once or twice in addition. Turned out we spent more time living on a boat than they did. Then a couple said they could never part with their land home. Come to find out their son and his family lived in it and had for three years and they hadn't spent a night there themselves, but still didn't consider themselves full time liveaboards.

I think one of the real challenges is figuring out what is right for you. I know we had no idea when we started. It was all so new to us. Our previous boat was a 30 foot bowrider, not like you're going to live on it. In fact, you've inspired me to start another thread....:popcorn:
 
Both those examples still fit what I think fit the 2 basic definitions...especially the dirt home one...doesn't matter if it is rented as long as it still is in their name. Unless one has decided to keep it purposely as rental income for the rest of their boating days.
 
psneeld said:
Both those examples still fit what I think fit the 2 basic definitions...especially the dirt home one...doesn't matter if it is rented as long as it still is in their name. Unless one has decided to keep it purposely as rental income for the rest of their boating days.
Click to expand...

It is also the "mental comfort" of knowing they have a place to go if the cruising thing stops being fun....regardless of how "recent" their experience is with visiting or living on the dirt. It serves as a security blanket. And I think women need that security blanket more than men. Men are a little more nomadic while women are a little more nesters. Anyway, I will likely keep a dirt home when I cruise full time to give her(and me too) a little comfort in knowing our entire being is not on the boat....whether we spend 100% of the time on it or not.
 
I am finding the draw to get a small RV as a second place to store the few momentos I have left, a place to get off the boat till major repairs are done (living aboard during major repairs can tax anyone), and a tool to see family and friends not near the water.


It will be a small one to replace my truck that I don't use 6 months of the year anyhow...and if I homeport in different places, it allows more trips with less transiting familiar territory...and seeing more sights, possibly seeing great places to come back to by boat. Doing it in much less time.
 
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Observations after 18 years of owning Bay Pelican, a two stateroom, two head 42 ft. boat. The two staterooms were essential when we had guests. In between guests, the second stateroom is Deb's dressing room, closet etc. The second head was ripped out for storage space and is now my closet.

If you are only going to have one toilet you must be able to repair or rebuild the appliance as they all break sooner or later. We have an 18 year old Groco manual which serves well but needs repair every few years.

Washer / dryer. If you are living at anchor this makes life much easier. The combo units are so small (dishwasher size) that they likely save space in that having a washer on board allows for reducing the amount of clothing one keeps on board.

If you are going to be at anchor most of the time I suggest a 110 unit (Spendide) for North American boats as the wash cycle can be run on the inverter. Starting a generator to run the wash cycle is more generator time than I otherwise need.
 
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Bay Pelican said:
If you are going to be at anchor most of the time I suggest a 110 unit (Spendide) for North American boats as the wash cycle can be run on the inverter. Starting a generator to run the wash cycle is more generator time than I otherwise need.
Click to expand...

Miele can be used the same and do twice the volume of wash.
 
psneeld said:
I am finding the draw to get a small RV as a second place to store the few momentos I have left, a place to get off the boat till major repairs are done (living aboard during major repairs can tax anyone), and a tool to see family and friends not near the water.


It will be a small one to replace my truck that I don't use 6 months of the year anyhow...and if I homeport in different places, it allows more trips with less transiting familiar territory...and seeing more sights, possibly seeing great places to come back to by boat. Doing it in much less time.
Click to expand...

I think your situation points out something else and that is not to rush the plan. Yours has evolved. We talk about "the boat will choose you". Perhaps we should say that about the plan as well. Yours sounds like an excellent, well thought out plan but you didn't have the complete plan when you started.
 
Like the old saying goes...


Anyone can have a plan, till the first punch (in life) changes all that.
 
WesK said:
If those are the "requirements", you've just priced most folks out of living on a boat.

Just as in living on land, different folks have different requirements or expectations based on their available income and lifestyle. In my part of the country, there are people (families) living in $30K mobile homes and there are folks living in $30M mansions. I know of a guy who used to live on a 26' former sailboat anchored in the harbor who commuted to his job in a canoe. I doubt he had a shower and I suspect his head was a bucket that was dumped at night. No washer or dryer.

If someone wants to live on a boat, their financial reality will determine how many staterooms, how many heads, how much storage space, etc. It's not "one size fits all".
Click to expand...

I agree completely with your last statement. Perhaps you missed the opening part of my post, repeated here:

"Great questions, and although the answer to each is very much an individual preference that you will ultimately have to answer yourself, I think it's good to hear what trade-offs other have made, and why."

Feel free to make different decisions on any and every point if something else works better for you,
 
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The question for many liveaboards is do you just like living aboard , or do you like using the boat,, AKA boating?

From what I have seen living aboard reduces boating.

So what do you want the boat for?
 
psneeld said:
Like the old saying goes...

Anyone can have a plan, till the first punch (in life) changes all that.
Click to expand...

Mike Tyson's saying is displayed front and center at my boxing gym, but it goes "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face"

Real bad-ass!
 
FF said:
The question for many liveaboards is do you just like living aboard , or do you like using the boat,, AKA boating?

From what I have seen living aboard reduces boating.

So what do you want the boat for?
Click to expand...

We use our boat more than any other we've owned in the past because we're liveaboards. Many of the liveaboards we know here in the Puget Sound area are the same. Yet there are others that live on their boats as if it was a dockside condo and don't really take it out of the slip.

I can't say we're any happier than the folks that don't actual "boat". They love their lifestyle, too. It all depends on what you want and like.

As far as getting "ready for sea" (or as we say "rigged for sea") it takes us about 15 minutes to stow glass, the computer and other breakables. And we've done more than 3,000 miles in four years, so it's not a difficult proposition to change gears from in-the-slip life to being underway...
 
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