This is CRAP Literally!

So they pick on us recreational boats, then this happens.....

Salem dumps 57M gallons of sewage into Willamette | KGW.com

Don't drink the 2017 Oregon Pinot!!!

Tom,
I can add a little to freshen things up a bit for ya, since your downstream and all!

Maddening, and we have to lock our minuscule sewage devices? It's as bad as the crap Victoria puts in Juan de Fuca. It is said that the straits are paved with corn...

Crusty Chief said:

Tom,
I can add a little to freshen things up a bit for ya, since your downstream and all!

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We prefer lavender please.

It happens here in the Northeast too. When there is heavy rain, many of the large cities, some on rivers, release millions of gallons of raw sewage into the area waterways. I, like you am a bit maddened by how much boaters are persecuted and regulated regarding how sewage is treated when this sort of raw sewage release is tolerated.

Ken

And some people say there's no overpopulation problem.

Lucky Chucky said:

Don't drink the 2017 Oregon Pinot!!!

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But the 2018 will be **amazing**

'Emergency' at Seattle wastewater plant dumping raw sewage into Puget Sound | KING5.com


And that's not all either!!!

Nomad Willy said:

And some people say there's no overpopulation problem.

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Overpopulation of what exactly?

78puget-trawler said:

Overpopulation of what exactly?

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No idea what Eric means, but I`m confident it`s the world.

For some reason boaters are an easy pollution target since being a minority we are easily persecuted, while cities since everyone uses a toilet by necessity gets a pass.

Hampton Va has had major sewage breaks leaking millions of gallons raw sewage into the Back River. And the fishing here is non existent compared to 15 years ago. I read the recent break, city was unaware of the sewer leaking. I suppose could have been leaking for years.

I blame city sewers and farms mostly for over fertilizing the Chesapeake Bay waters.
Barnacles do grow well on all the algae and plankton fertilized by the sewage.

Many of the cities on Long Island Sound have been having the same "emergency" for 4-5 decades.

FF said:

Many of the cities on Long Island Sound have been having the same "emergency" for 4-5 decades.

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That is because many eastern cities use a combination storm drain/sewer system. They work great for three seasons, emergencies normally occur during periods of heavy rain when folks are away from rivers, creeks and beaches. Most cities "solved" the problem with longer outflow pipes and EPA waivers for "emergencies".

kchace said:

I, like you am a bit maddened by how much boaters are persecuted and regulated regarding how sewage is treated when this sort of raw sewage release is tolerated.

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Instead of advocating that everybody should be allowed to dump sewage into our coastal waterways, how 'bout you petition your municipality to upgrade the local sewage system so that releases do not happen?

fstbttms said:

Instead of advocating that everybody should be allowed to dump sewage into our coastal waterways, how 'bout you petition your municipality to upgrade the local sewage system so that releases do not happen?

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[Rant_mode]Here in the PNW the recent issue isn't raw sewage from boats as that is already prohibited. Most boaters don't mind that now (other than a few cantankerous old dinosaurs). The more recent issue is making the area a NDZ, prohibiting the discharge of treated waste from boats. I recall that as a diver you are not a fan their use in the waters in which you work and I get that. However, there is no evidence that their use degrades the environment in Puget Sound in any way. Yet the state wants a NDZ but continues to allow sewage overflows, agricultural contamination in the rivers feeding the Sound, and failing septic systems lining the Sound. Their own research shows that the majority of nutrients entering Puget Sound (70% if I recall) comes from the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

So yes, we should be advocating for changes that would actually effect water quality. Instead, we end up trying to stop measures that are only symbolic.[/Rant_mode]

fstbttms said:

Instead of advocating that everybody should be allowed to dump sewage into our coastal waterways, how 'bout you petition your municipality to upgrade the local sewage system so that releases do not happen?

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You prob'ly aren't aware that more than 100 cities, counties and municipalities have systems so antiquated, in such disrepair, and/or have become too small for the population demand that they can no longer meet federal requirements have been given waivers that permit them to operate anyway because they can't afford to update/upgrade them. As long as they can do that, there's no incentive to find the money.

As for " advocating that everybody should be allowed to dump sewage into our coastal waterways," no one is. For 37 years, federal law has required all vessels to hold or treat their sewage (toilet waste) in all US waters within 3 miles of the whole US coastline. Only about 5% of registered boats in the US are big enough to have a toilet...and no more than about 5% of those have ever had, or are likely to have, treatment devices because of cost and power requirements. That means 95% of 'em should already have holding tanks.

Federal water quality standards for safe swimming require a max bacteria count of 200/100 ml. The discharge from a LectraSan, ElectroScan or PuraSan is <10/100 ml. 1000 of 'em together doesn't equal the negative environmental impact of just ONE illegally dumped holding tank.

So how does it make any sense to require boats that are already putting out a cleaner discharge than most sewage treatment plants to cease doing that and instead hold their sewage in tanks to be pumped out (or often illegally dumped) and sent to sewage treatment facilities that you've already acknowledged are inadequate to meet demand?

It's that kind of thinking that has resulted in regulations that have brought any possible advances in more affordable, less power-hungry treatment devices to a standstill.

I agree with you Peggy completely. People need to be educated about how these marine sanitation devices work. So much ignorance likely cause there is some kind of emotional feeling regarding any kind of wastes going into the water.
A boat on the water is a visible target of opportunity to persecute about waste, while a sewer system is an invisible network of underground pipe nobody sees. If you don't see it, it is not a problem type thinking.

Happy to have and be able to use a Lectrasan, no potentially stinky holding tank issues.

Half the marinas I have had the boat, don't have any pumpout facility, and I don't want to go looking for one when I get to the boat, I want to just go out on the bay.

There is the argument that even sterilized waste is nutrient pollution. But you know, put it into the sewer system, and it mostly ends up discharged by a city into the water anyway. The few Boaters nutrient waste is ridiculous to consider significant.

There is the argument that even sterilized waste is nutrient pollution.

That's not a valid argument either....the enviro-zealots switched to that one when they lost the battle over bacteria count (federal law actually allows a max of 1000/100ml, which is what they based that argument on). The BOD (bio-oxygen demand) from a flush through a Lectra/San, ElectroScan or PuraSan is the equivalent of 4 oak leaves landing in the water.
They also try to argue that there's no way to prove that owners are using an maintaining treatment devices as required by the mfrs...but that's a specious argument too, 'cuz there's no way to prove that tanks aren't being dumped illegally either...but that's a lot more likely than owners neglecting or mis-using equipment that's cost 'em a whole bunch more than a tank.

fstbttms said:

Instead of advocating that everybody should be allowed to dump sewage into our coastal waterways, how 'bout you petition your municipality to upgrade the local sewage system so that releases do not happen?

Click to expand...

I have never and would never advocate that boaters be allowed to dump untreated sewage in rivers, lakes or near shore. As has been stated, boaters are an easy target even if at most are a tiny fraction of the problem. Cities get away with dumping massive quantities by filing for and getting waivers because they "don't have the money" to fix the system properly. I can't imagine a boater would be allowed any such "waiver".

Ken

HeadMistress said:

There is the argument that even sterilized waste is nutrient pollution.

That's not a valid argument either....the enviro-zealots switched to that one when they lost the battle over bacteria count (federal law actually allows a max of 1000/100ml, which is what they based that argument on). The BOD (bio-oxygen demand) from a flush through a Lectra/San, ElectroScan or PuraSan is the equivalent of 4 oak leaves landing in the water.
They also try to argue that there's no way to prove that owners are using an maintaining treatment devices as required by the mfrs...but that's a specious argument too, 'cuz there's no way to prove that tanks aren't being dumped illegally either...but that's a lot more likely than owners neglecting or mis-using equipment that's cost 'em a whole bunch more than a tank.

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Yes, that's good, 4 oak leaves.
And you can argue the people who actually spent the money on Lectrasan, etc... actually cared enough to spend that money and know more than enough about operating them, and the environment else why would they bother getting one.

Down river from Salem on the Willamette in Portland

This happened the middle of last month. When the Portland area has a big rain event, it overcomes the billion dollar plus overflow storage tunnels they built. But now it only happens when there is a large rain in a short time period. Before the storage tunnels, it was a regular event.

Rain causes sewer overflow into Willamette River | KGW.com

Then it happened again last Thursday.

Sewage overflows into Willamette River after heavy Portland rain | OregonLive.com

This is sad...

Peggy not only has knowledge and experience, she is also a rational thinker. So glad to have her here.

I posted this on the "other" sewage thread, but still (maybe) pertinent.

From an EPA presentation at a conference I attended in 2012: 25.000 to 75,000 POTW (sewerage plant) releases per year, producing an aggregate 3-10 billion gallons of untreated sewage release. Straight into the lake, river, coast. Stuck with me as I had a boating friend who had recently been whacked hard by Florida water cops who would not accept his installed tie-wrap lockout on his Y valve.

EPA is the classic 90/10 situation. Back in the early days, they did a lot of good with major issues (some may remember the Cuyahoga River Fire). Air and water are irrefutably cleaner today, by significant margins, due to early EPA and EPA funded (in most states the department of environmental quality gets 90-95% of its funding through EPA) rule making and enforcement.

Today - three times the staff and budget are devoted to the last 10%. The hard core scientists and engineers that started the agency are long gone, replaced with career civil servants with either law or "environmental" degrees. During the Clinton administration, under the leadership of Carol Browner (lawyer), EPA abandonded science (if data won't support the desired program at the 95% confidence limit, we'll just lower the data reliability threshold to 90%) and adopted feel good as the guiding policy. That has continued to the present day.

Additionally, EPA now has 200 commissioned and armed "special agents" and spends $75 million a year on guns, body armor, camouflage equipment, unmanned aircraft, amphibious assault vessels, radar, night-vision gear, and assorted military weaponry.

We must still be making progress, eh?

Surprised you haven't been hammered by the climate change folks here. Some of those who live in la la land are not interested in results or motive, just perceived good intentions, and you know what is said about good intentions.