Painting topsides

I am painting the top sides of our 2003 OA. It has severely crazed gel coat. Looks like bad layup. I have engaged a painter who comes recommended. He says he want to use interlux 2000 as a primer. I was expecting him to use Awlfare to fill in the cracks. He claims to get better flow from 2000. We are going to paint the bypassed using Awlgrip. I am wondering about how well Allgrip will adhere to the 2000. Does anyone here have any experience with these two together?

Thanks
Gordon

First off just filling the cracks won't prevent them from coming back. If your painter thinks it will, find another painter. OA's are notorious for lots of patched gelcoat, really thick gelcoat and lots of polyester based putty. All can cause cracking. You have to grind back to something solid before you start building back up.
Interlux 2000 will likely work OK as a primer, as long as it's prepped correctly. They're both epoxy based primers. I'm not sure if your painter is spraying or rolling it on. But either way 2000 is likely not to go on as well as the Awlgrip primer and is certainly harder to sand. 2000 is designed to be a barrier coat not a finish primer.

Gordon J said:

I am painting the top sides of our 2003 OA. It has severely crazed gel coat. Looks like bad layup. I have engaged a painter who comes recommended. He says he want to use interlux 2000 as a primer. I was expecting him to use Awlfare to fill in the cracks. He claims to get better flow from 2000. We are going to paint the bypassed using Awlgrip. I am wondering about how well Allgrip will adhere to the 2000. Does anyone here have any experience with these two together?

Thanks
Gordon

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I think the cracks will show through if they are not ground out. I am in the process of doing that now. Does your painter give a warrenty with the job and if so will he be there if it does not work? If it does not work you are lookig at a lot more work to make it right.

I have seen boats like mine painted. And years later still no cracks. These are not stress cracks. Larger Stress cracks will be ground out nd filled. Whether or not they will return is anyones guess. They qill be ground down to glass and filled.

I would live top find a painter, any painter, who would warrant a job against cracks.

IF they are not stress cracks....maybe the Interprotect 2000 will work.

Interlux suggests 2000 as their universal primer...but as always, there may be suggestions or exceptions so I would consult them.

My Albin had many cracks in the gel on the cabin sides and just plain old one part poly filled them for 2 years. Only a few of the large ones have returned, and only parts of them so the 2000 would surely do a much better job of priming.

Short of reglassing you csbin, it may be your best bet.....just grinding and filling is no guarantee either....plus if there are lots of them it takes longer to sand the flats fair.



http://www.yachtpaint.com/usa/diy/products/primers/search.aspx

Interprotect® 2000E can be used above and below the waterline as a universal primer for all surfaces and has proven itself to be an excellent primer for all metals. It also can be used as part of a no sand system.

psneeld,

Thanks for the input. There a some larger stress cracks that we will dig out and fill with Awlfare.

As I went looking for painters who will roll and tip - which is really the only reasonably cost effective method, costing tens of thousands less than spraying, - most folks wanted to skim coat with awlfare and then sand lightly, prime and then paint. I have seen this painters work and it looks good, but I did not know about compatibility and whether 2000 would be a good longterm solution. I have used it on the bottom, but never topside. He is talking about putting on 3-5 coats before painting.

Gordon

Greetings,
Mr. GJ. When we repainted a couple of years ago, most, if not all crazing sanded out. Now, I don't know if we had extra thick gelcoat but we never saw any evidence of underlying fiber glass cloth. We used the Alexseal system with their faring compound where necessary. Evidently, Alexseal is easier to buff out and blend in than Awlgrip if repairs/touch-ups are needed.

I doubt if your cracks are stress cracks. Being an OA there's a good chance there is just a lot of cheap polyester putty (bondo) under the gelcoat. It's likely shrunk back over time causing the cracks. If you don't dig it out it'll just crack again, or somewhere else.
Roll and tip is a lot easier only because you don't need to build a spray booth. Downside is that you can only do one coat a day so you're painting for days. If you spray you're done in one day.
Alexseal is something to look at. I've never brushed it but the people I've talked to that have really like it. They say it brushes better than Awlgrip.
You can polish/buff Alexseal, you can't polish/buff Awlgrip.
Still makes little sense to use Interprotect 2000 as primer. Painter will need his 3-5 coats so he doesn't sand through it trying to get it smooth.

Gordon J said:

psneeld,

Thanks for the input. There a some larger stress cracks that we will dig out and fill with Awlfare.

As I went looking for painters who will roll and tip - which is really the only reasonably cost effective method, costing tens of thousands less than spraying, - most folks wanted to skim coat with awlfare and the

n sand lightly, prime and then paint. I have seen this painters work and it looks good, but I did not know about compatibility and whether 2000 would be a good longterm solution. I have used it on the bottom, but never topside. He is talking about putting on 3-5 coats before painting.

Gordon

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Fairing isn't going to stop all cracks any more than a filler primer.

The 2000 is an epoxy with fillers and is recommended as a universal primer.

Several coat buildup is much like aplying filler and sanding...without all the sanding till the final coat.

Probably a bit more expensive in materials, but less in labor.

Can't say I have done it, but gives me thought before I do my cabin again.

If he's going to roll on 3-5 coats of 2000E he is going to be sanding 4-1/2 of those back off to get rid of the roller stipple.
That's the problem with not spraying primers, none are designed to flow out. They roll on so rough that you end up sanding it all back off to get it smooth.
I've had good luck with finish priming with under-thinned top coat. It goes on smooth, takes little sanding so you still have a solid color base.

sean9c,

I don't know the exact procedure, but have seen his work, which looks good. 99 percent of these cracks is crazing form bad lay-up. Makes me wonder if OA was ever sued for bad gelcoat. We looked at a 2001 423 summer of 2015 and the entire decks were crazed with thousands and thousands of cracks. Horizontal surfaces more or less OK. It is clear that OA's gelcoat procedures are/were faulty.

sean9c said:

If he's going to roll on 3-5 coats of 2000E he is going to be sanding 4-1/2 of those back off to get rid of the roller stipple.
That's the problem with not spraying primers, none are designed to flow out. They roll on so rough that you end up sanding it all back off to get it smooth.
I've had good luck with finish priming with under-thinned top coat. It goes on smooth, takes little sanding so you still have a solid color base.

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My experience exactly in using 2000 to do my Minto dinghy. Many hours of recreational sanding.

Lots of warranty claims over OA gelcoat. From what I hear they're pretty good at keeping customers happy if you complain loud enough. I'm sure they just figure it's the cost of doing business.
OA gelcoat process is wacky one, at least on their bigger boats. The boats come out of the mold gelcoated, after that lots of filling, patching, fairing is done. On some models holes are cut in the topsides to access nuts for deck hardware then the holes filled back in. Also, some areas can have putty an inch or so thick. After the boats are finished they are re-gelcoated, out of the mold, sanded, gelcoated again, sanded and polished back..
OA does realize that they have a gelcoat problem, both from a customer satisfaction standpoint and a cost of labor standpoint. A few years ago they started working towards painting their boats rather than gelcoating them. I know it was a long and involved program. With the consolidation of their production and the difficulty they found in keeping talented labor, its a lot harder to spray paint than gelcoat, I'm not sure what they ended up doing. My guess would be that they stayed with gelcoat.

Gordon J said:

sean9c,

I don't know the exact procedure, but have seen his work, which looks good. 99 percent of these cracks is crazing form bad lay-up. Makes me wonder if OA was ever sued for bad gelcoat. We looked at a 2001 423 summer of 2015 and the entire decks were crazed with thousands and thousands of cracks. Horizontal surfaces more or less OK. It is clear that OA's gelcoat procedures are/were faulty.

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I would love for OA to step in and fix this one, but being the third owner on a now 14-year-old boat, I am sure they will not answer the phone.

The previous owner tried to re-gelcoat some of the deck(areas between non-skid) and I am/have been sanding much of that back down.

I understand that Hatteras also had issues at some point and went to painting. My last boat was painted green Imron from the factory (beneteau). The paint was applied to white gelcoat. After a bit more than 10 years, the paint still shone like new, after waxing. And waxing was easy - wipe on-wipe off. No buffing. It was real easy keeping her clean. My understanding is that Awlgrip is essentially the same product.

To keep things simple, we are going to do the decks in Awlgrip also. Any issues using this on deck?

and....

Northern Spy said:

My experience exactly in using 2000 to do my Minto dinghy. Many hours of recreational sanding.

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How was the final product? Were you happy with the job?

Gordon J said:

How was the final product? Were you happy with the job?

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No final product yet... Still sanding. I will probably use yet another primer before paint to feather some edges. It wasn't easy sanding, but of course it is simulated lapstrake. I used it on the hull because of some gelcoat repair that was below waterline.

My experience with 2000 on dozens of boats is different.

On the bottom...most don't care about a mirror finish so the application effort is such that time is money.

However on running gear with foam brushes and rollers, the results are smooth enough even without thinning that only a bit of sanding was required.

If the surface was rough enough to be of concerrn, after some sanding, I am guessing a final layer of intercontinental would solve the issue.

Psneeld,

What is intercontinental, if not a mistype?

Thanks,
Gordon

psneeld said:

My experience with 2000 on dozens of boats is different.

On the bottom...most don't care about a mirror finish so the application effort is such that time is money.

However on running gear with foam brushes and rollers, the results are smooth enough even without thinning that only a bit of sanding was required.

If the surface was rough enough to be of concerrn, after some sanding, I am guessing a final layer of intercontinental would solve the issue.

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I had the same experience under bottom paint too. My experience with prepping for brightsides was different, that's all.

Sorry, Prekote.

It is designed not to sag and thus not lay flat unless thinned like many paints.

Even Brightside in some conditions has to be thinned almost to perfection to only get a "good" finish.

Believe me, I am no perfectionist so my interpretation of "ready to topcoat" may be different than many.

Folks have chased a lot of cracks on OA decks. There was a Classico 50 hauled here last year. There were so many deck cracks that it was hard to imagine what would cause something that widespread. Brought in a guy that does gelcoat peeling for blister repair and had him peel the deck. Found some areas that had polyester putty 2" thick that had just shrunk up and cracked. Became a big job everything ground down to laminate and brought back using epoxy.
Interprotect 2000E is a great product for what it was intended for, a barrier coat. Sure you can use it for other things but why not use a product for the intended use. In my experience 2000E rolls OK but not great, if you're doing multiple coats wet on wet you have to give that a day or so before you can sand. Then you have a day or so before it becomes pretty darn hard and tough to sand. Repainting a boat is hard enough without choosing products that will make it even harder with no benefit.
Also, it's one thing to sand 2000 prepping for bottom paint where you're looking for an 80grit finish, its another thing when you're looking for a 320grit finish as you would before a topcoat.

Well...it's considered a universal primer by a major marine paint company.

I like it and have not found it all that difficult to work with. A pro has recommended it's use as he has found it also satisfactory in his estimation.

I would have no problem with giving him the go unless the estimated man hours seemed out of line.

All,. I have today checked with a couple of other painters in the area. They prefer Awlfair, but see no problem using 2000. Thanks all for the input.

Gordon

Professionally we use Evercoat Formula 27 and then either gelcoat or if the boat has been painted, Awlgrip.

There are many ways to skin a cat...30 painters may have 30 systems and most will produce a decent finish.

All anyone can do is check previous work and reputation....and hope.

Awlfair is a fairing putty. Interprotect 2000e is a primer.
Normal process using Awlgrip products would be Awlfair for fairing, Awlgrip High Build primer #8002 if you have some small stuff to fill, then #545 finish primer. Topcoat always goes over #545.
2000E would likely be somewhere between #8002 and #545.
If you're committed to a painter let him use the products he wants. Then it's his responsibility.

Gordon J said:

All,. I have today checked with a couple of other painters in the area. They prefer Awlfair, but see no problem using 2000. Thanks all for the input.

Gordon

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Just remember the fumes from Allgrip or Immeron are poisonous.

Doesn't last as long but Toplac or Brightside will look good and will not kill the folks downwind.

Filling a crack is seldom a success as the problem, flexing of the syrface has not been cured.

Only a thin skim over the crack , with a primer that can stand the flexing will work,

Gordon J said:

To keep things simple, we are going to do the decks in Awlgrip also. Any issues using this on deck?

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Consider using Awlcraft 2000. It is easily repairable and able to be buffed and still retain long term gloss (as opposed to Awlgrip which can be problematic in some cases). In my experience, Awlcraft seems just as hard and lays on nicely with a brush....

More info on the differences here:

https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=1080