Nomad Willy
Guru
PS is telling me I need a kedge?
We need a Practical Trawler mag.
We need a Practical Trawler mag.
Mantus and Sarca anchors
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Gordon J
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I can't imagine kedging-off my 50K pound trawler. My former boat, a sailboat with its keel stuck in the mud would be a whole different experience.
On the other hand, unless I run hard aground, I would think my twin 29-inch props and 660 HP of motivation would do a lot to get me off a soft bottom.
On the other hand, unless I run hard aground, I would think my twin 29-inch props and 660 HP of motivation would do a lot to get me off a soft bottom.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Gorden J,
I'd say more power to ya but you've got plenty. Plenty more that my 37hp.
I would think a Fortress would be better for kedging off anyway. And at 1/15th the weight.
Eyeshulman,
Thinking of a spare all around anchor the SARCA now being availble in the US would be hard to beat. Many have more holding power but I doubt many would even be close to a do everything anchor. I'll bet the SARCA even does fairly well on weed. Setting upright w that sharp turned down "toe" (as Rex calles it) weeds could be a piece of cake.
But as you say there's so many good top performing anchors l'd be inclined to say choosing which one could be not so important. Choose the cutest one and go.
I'd say more power to ya but you've got plenty. Plenty more that my 37hp.
I would think a Fortress would be better for kedging off anyway. And at 1/15th the weight.
Eyeshulman,
Thinking of a spare all around anchor the SARCA now being availble in the US would be hard to beat. Many have more holding power but I doubt many would even be close to a do everything anchor. I'll bet the SARCA even does fairly well on weed. Setting upright w that sharp turned down "toe" (as Rex calles it) weeds could be a piece of cake.
But as you say there's so many good top performing anchors l'd be inclined to say choosing which one could be not so important. Choose the cutest one and go.
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Anchor Brian
Senior Member
This will be my last post under the name Fortress Anchors, since as per this forum's rules, a commercial name is not allowed and so I will have to make up another name.
Practical Sailor stated in their article: "More research is required to determine how significantly a shallow burying angle impacts holding ability." This comment was referring to their own research, because there has already been extensive research conducted in this area by the US Navy and by anchor manufacturers who design and sell their products to the offshore industry.
It is my understanding that our consultant Bob Taylor, who has spent almost 50 years in anchor design and soil mechanics (most of which with the US Navy), contributed to the story and he was referenced in it.
In addition to the shank / fluke angle, Bob also brought up the importance of the "penetration angle" (also called the "effective fluke angle") which determines how aggressively (or not) the fluke engages and penetrates into a sea bottom.
So even if the ultimate shank / fluke angle (based on extensive research - the Practical Sailor article provides a graph) is 30° for a hard soil and 50° for a soft soil, that does not automatically result in an immediate setting / deeper burying capability. The fluke still has to be designed to attack the sea bottom.
The issue noted with the Mantus and observed in their own videos and in other forum photos was that while the anchor set quickly in dense wet beach sand and other hard bottoms, the anchor never buried very deeply (the roll bar was always visible), which was theorized to be due to a narrower shank / fluke angle, and in turn that cast doubt on its ultimate holding capacity.
Simply stated, it might set quickly, but how well will it hold, and was a trade-off made in the design?
Practical Sailor has only tested a 2 lb Mantus and they looked at the results of the soft mud testing that we did, and so they didn't have a definitive answer, hence the comment: "More research is required....."
To the best of my knowledge, in the pleasure craft industry only the Super Max and Fortress have adjustable fluke angles to insure optimal performance in hard and soft soil conditions.
Based on very well-established science (and certainly not manufacturer's bluster), there is no question that the performance of fixed-fluke / non-adjustable anchors, which are typically designed and optimized for harder soils, will fall off dramatically in softer bottom conditions.
Safe anchoring,
Brian
Practical Sailor stated in their article: "More research is required to determine how significantly a shallow burying angle impacts holding ability." This comment was referring to their own research, because there has already been extensive research conducted in this area by the US Navy and by anchor manufacturers who design and sell their products to the offshore industry.
It is my understanding that our consultant Bob Taylor, who has spent almost 50 years in anchor design and soil mechanics (most of which with the US Navy), contributed to the story and he was referenced in it.
In addition to the shank / fluke angle, Bob also brought up the importance of the "penetration angle" (also called the "effective fluke angle") which determines how aggressively (or not) the fluke engages and penetrates into a sea bottom.
So even if the ultimate shank / fluke angle (based on extensive research - the Practical Sailor article provides a graph) is 30° for a hard soil and 50° for a soft soil, that does not automatically result in an immediate setting / deeper burying capability. The fluke still has to be designed to attack the sea bottom.
The issue noted with the Mantus and observed in their own videos and in other forum photos was that while the anchor set quickly in dense wet beach sand and other hard bottoms, the anchor never buried very deeply (the roll bar was always visible), which was theorized to be due to a narrower shank / fluke angle, and in turn that cast doubt on its ultimate holding capacity.
Simply stated, it might set quickly, but how well will it hold, and was a trade-off made in the design?
Practical Sailor has only tested a 2 lb Mantus and they looked at the results of the soft mud testing that we did, and so they didn't have a definitive answer, hence the comment: "More research is required....."
To the best of my knowledge, in the pleasure craft industry only the Super Max and Fortress have adjustable fluke angles to insure optimal performance in hard and soft soil conditions.
Based on very well-established science (and certainly not manufacturer's bluster), there is no question that the performance of fixed-fluke / non-adjustable anchors, which are typically designed and optimized for harder soils, will fall off dramatically in softer bottom conditions.
Safe anchoring,
Brian
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eyschulman
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I suppose if I am to anchor in a place or boat where there is an abundance of soft mud an adjustable anchor pre set for the soft stuff makes sense. Where I anchor now and even on the East coast where I used to anchor changing fluke angles or exchanging anchors on a 40-50 foot boat is not something I would want to do on a regular basis. My solution is to have a good all around anchor on the bow and carry light aluminum specialty anchors in the bilge that I can deploy from my dinghy when needed. I would then count on two anchors to do the job and probably use the F37 without bothering with the mud angle or the Al spade as the secondary units. Since I don't design or sell anchors and only use them I am not so interested in the nitty gritty of fluke and shaft angle but in the practical field results including the many hundreds of times I have used the metal gizmos.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Brian,
Excellent copy as usual.
And eyeshulman sees through the smoke and details. And his post could probably go for most here that probably look at anchor threads but never post on them. I know there's many more of you than "us".
But Brian I am largely in eyeshulman's camp mostly because I usually don't know what the bottom is like. So I deploy an anchor for a typical bottom (if there is one) and hope for the best. However since I hand deploy w initial setting felt in my hands I frequently know more than most. I hold the Brait rode in my hands untill it's too much tension to hang onto. I'll feel nothing but increasing tension in soft mud and gravel feels like I'm pulling a small square chunk of metal on .. well .. gravel. And of course sometimes I see some seafloor on the fluke in the morning while weighing anchor.
However if I was to anchor in soft mud and w increasing wind I noticed drag I could pull up the anchor (night or day) and "set/adjust" it for the then known to be very soft bottom. It's never happened and not having an adjustable anchor I'd just deploy one of me other anchors. Probably one of my several Danforth anchors.
And speaking of mud almost all of the anchorages in the PNW seem to be mud. One would think w all the rocky shores there would be rocky bottoms. There are but not that many. So if you've got a good mud anchor you've just about got it covered. Since I've got so many Dans I probably should modify one of my larger Dans for a 42 to 44 degree fluke/shank angle. HaHa the first time I drag in mud I'll probably do that. But I've not dragged in any bottom yet .. that I know of.
Excellent copy as usual.
And eyeshulman sees through the smoke and details. And his post could probably go for most here that probably look at anchor threads but never post on them. I know there's many more of you than "us".
But Brian I am largely in eyeshulman's camp mostly because I usually don't know what the bottom is like. So I deploy an anchor for a typical bottom (if there is one) and hope for the best. However since I hand deploy w initial setting felt in my hands I frequently know more than most. I hold the Brait rode in my hands untill it's too much tension to hang onto. I'll feel nothing but increasing tension in soft mud and gravel feels like I'm pulling a small square chunk of metal on .. well .. gravel. And of course sometimes I see some seafloor on the fluke in the morning while weighing anchor.
However if I was to anchor in soft mud and w increasing wind I noticed drag I could pull up the anchor (night or day) and "set/adjust" it for the then known to be very soft bottom. It's never happened and not having an adjustable anchor I'd just deploy one of me other anchors. Probably one of my several Danforth anchors.
And speaking of mud almost all of the anchorages in the PNW seem to be mud. One would think w all the rocky shores there would be rocky bottoms. There are but not that many. So if you've got a good mud anchor you've just about got it covered. Since I've got so many Dans I probably should modify one of my larger Dans for a 42 to 44 degree fluke/shank angle. HaHa the first time I drag in mud I'll probably do that. But I've not dragged in any bottom yet .. that I know of.
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Nomad Willy
Guru
Brian,
I sure do hope you make it so we can tell who you are. I hope "Brian" is open or if not perhaps "Brian F". F for Fortress of course.
I made this post on my thread "West Marine Anchor". It has no name that I know about. In the Chesapeke Bay test a West Marine guy is mentioned .. not Bob Taylor but someone else. I think he is the one that designed the WM anchor. I may find his name on the Chesapeke Bay test thread. [I did. It's Chuck Hawley.] Anyway I'd love to ask him about the turned down flange on the LE of the outboard fluke extensions. I made the thread hoping someone would have bought the anchor and used it or perhaps knows more about it.
Steve and 78,
I agree on both counts.
And Steve this was my first thought when I first saw the WM.
Not often does an interesting anchor come onto the market and this one is interesting. I've seen and used more interesting like my XYZ and need I mention the Bulwagga? Even the name is interesting there but it's short scope performance is quite poor and stowing is probably this side of a nightmare.
But the WM is clearly not a rip off of some other design however it would be hard to design an anchor not resembling any other. I suspect I know who designed this anchor and intend to look him up. He has been very involved in anchor testing and West Marine so is a natural suspect.
"I've seen this anchor for some time at the West Marine stores but never seen one elsewhere. This of course leads me to belive few have been sold and that would be a shame if it was a good performer. Probably never been in an an anchor test either. It may do well on Steve's (Panope) high performance reversal test procedure. Could be an opportunity for Steve. Not very expensive either."
I sure do hope you make it so we can tell who you are. I hope "Brian" is open or if not perhaps "Brian F". F for Fortress of course.
I made this post on my thread "West Marine Anchor". It has no name that I know about. In the Chesapeke Bay test a West Marine guy is mentioned .. not Bob Taylor but someone else. I think he is the one that designed the WM anchor. I may find his name on the Chesapeke Bay test thread. [I did. It's Chuck Hawley.] Anyway I'd love to ask him about the turned down flange on the LE of the outboard fluke extensions. I made the thread hoping someone would have bought the anchor and used it or perhaps knows more about it.
Steve and 78,
I agree on both counts.
And Steve this was my first thought when I first saw the WM.
Not often does an interesting anchor come onto the market and this one is interesting. I've seen and used more interesting like my XYZ and need I mention the Bulwagga? Even the name is interesting there but it's short scope performance is quite poor and stowing is probably this side of a nightmare.
But the WM is clearly not a rip off of some other design however it would be hard to design an anchor not resembling any other. I suspect I know who designed this anchor and intend to look him up. He has been very involved in anchor testing and West Marine so is a natural suspect.
"I've seen this anchor for some time at the West Marine stores but never seen one elsewhere. This of course leads me to belive few have been sold and that would be a shame if it was a good performer. Probably never been in an an anchor test either. It may do well on Steve's (Panope) high performance reversal test procedure. Could be an opportunity for Steve. Not very expensive either."
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By real life testing it would appear that the 'all measurements' thing is probably wrong, so why bother paying for a heavier than necessary, over-sized anchor..?.
Just sayin'
Nomad Willy
Guru
I'd be looking for 5/16" chain before a bigger anchor.
Who says a 45lb anchor is'nt big enough?
A 33lb XYZ Extreme has no roll bar and may fit on your boat but fitting wise they Can be dificult. My 18lb XYZ held us in a 50 knot gale without a problem. It was slightly modified though.
Who says a 45lb anchor is'nt big enough?
A 33lb XYZ Extreme has no roll bar and may fit on your boat but fitting wise they Can be dificult. My 18lb XYZ held us in a 50 knot gale without a problem. It was slightly modified though.
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Nomad Willy
Guru
"1/4 as its working load was greater than 5/16"
REALLY!
How can that be? For years whenever I thought about chain (not often) I thought 1/4" would be too weak. And now you say it's stronger than 5/16". Would 3/16"be stronger than 1/4"? I'm missing something ......
Edit;
Oh I see now after rereading BBB and HT.
And that's great keeping the weight down .. especially in the bow.
Is your boat single engine? That would be a big savings in weight. And windage is even more important and you have no FB. Pull up all the variables and I'll bet your 45lb anchor is plenty big enough.
Does the Mantus pull up mud often?
REALLY!
How can that be? For years whenever I thought about chain (not often) I thought 1/4" would be too weak. And now you say it's stronger than 5/16". Would 3/16"be stronger than 1/4"? I'm missing something ......
Edit;
Oh I see now after rereading BBB and HT.
And that's great keeping the weight down .. especially in the bow.
Is your boat single engine? That would be a big savings in weight. And windage is even more important and you have no FB. Pull up all the variables and I'll bet your 45lb anchor is plenty big enough.
Does the Mantus pull up mud often?
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sean9c
Guru
Surprised that you wouldn't use at least 5/16" HT on a NT42.
Also sort of surprised that you could find a 1/4" chain head for a windlass that size.
What size shackles are you using with 1/4" chain? 5/16"? If so the shackle has a breaking strength of 1500# where the chain has a working strength of 1900#. It's ratcheting the overall strength of the rode downward.
The Dashew's use high strength G7 chain on their projects. For example working strength of 1/4" HT is 1900# on G7 it's 3150#. G7 is also expensive.
Also sort of surprised that you could find a 1/4" chain head for a windlass that size.
What size shackles are you using with 1/4" chain? 5/16"? If so the shackle has a breaking strength of 1500# where the chain has a working strength of 1900#. It's ratcheting the overall strength of the rode downward.
The Dashew's use high strength G7 chain on their projects. For example working strength of 1/4" HT is 1900# on G7 it's 3150#. G7 is also expensive.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Sean,
I find the Dashews interesting but don't look to them for guidance. They live on another planet.
I find the Dashews interesting but don't look to them for guidance. They live on another planet.
tpbrady
Guru
I found a high strength 5/16 shackle that had a working load a little higher than the chain. On the windlass I had the choice of 1/4 or 5/16 gypsy for the Lofrans Tigress so everything worked out.
The Mantus does regularly bring up mud and all the things stuck in it.
Tom
The Mantus does regularly bring up mud and all the things stuck in it.
Tom
sean9c
Guru
I've learned quite a lot from the Dashew's, not sure why you would discount them. Knowledge is power.
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Nomad Willy commented...
Sean,
I find the Dashews interesting but don't look to them for guidance. They live on another planet.
__________________
Eric
I think Eric (Nomad Willy) was referring to the fact that for the Dashews, (unlike for most of us mere mortals), money is no object...not that one could not learn anything from them.
Sean,
I find the Dashews interesting but don't look to them for guidance. They live on another planet.
__________________
Eric
I think Eric (Nomad Willy) was referring to the fact that for the Dashews, (unlike for most of us mere mortals), money is no object...not that one could not learn anything from them.
Nomad Willy
Guru
Nice to see my analyst is up and running.
Thank you Peter however that wasn't the biggest part of it.
Everything about the D boats is as far from normal boating as it could be. We're fly'in hang gliders and they have flying saucers. We're go'in to the farm down the road and the D boys are anchoring in a gale in Patagoina. The D boats float and that's about it.
They are interesting but I'm not about to buck up and do as they do.
And this is very far off topic. When was the last time SARCA or Mantus anchors were mentioned? Just 8 posts ago I see.
Thank you Peter however that wasn't the biggest part of it.
Everything about the D boats is as far from normal boating as it could be. We're fly'in hang gliders and they have flying saucers. We're go'in to the farm down the road and the D boys are anchoring in a gale in Patagoina. The D boats float and that's about it.
They are interesting but I'm not about to buck up and do as they do.
And this is very far off topic. When was the last time SARCA or Mantus anchors were mentioned? Just 8 posts ago I see.
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psneeld
Guru
Knowledge is only power if you use it to hold over someone's head or if you personally need it.
Knowledge on being able to anchor in conditions the Dashew's have and plan to encounter is totally lost on most boaters. Info they most likely will never need.
I tend to seek experience and knowledge from people who do what I do regularly as to occasionally.
So reading someone's info.....yet using someone else for guidance is actually pretty common.
To me, I can read into where a person is no longer entry level and knows who is actually knowledgeable in a specific topic rather than published experts who have certain levels of expertise, but certainly can't know everything.
ranger58sb
Guru
OK, welcome back as soon as you work out your new name.
Maybe your name, label yourself as a Marine Service Provider... and then adopt an avatar that clearly suggests you know something about Fortress anchors?
That's theoretically an issue with the Fortress anchors. Changing the fluke angle -- after the fact -- means recovering the anchor, dismantling, rebuilding, redeploying...
Not actually difficult, but the boat is floating wherever during that time. Usually it'd be a minor detail assuming crew aboard... not so great, if single-handing.
OTOH, we've never been faced with that. We know it's muddy around here, so when we used the Fortress, we always had it set appropriately in the first place. Never had to change mid-stream, so to speak.
FWIW, we can change the angle on our primary anchor without dismantling. Still have to bring it back up, but I can change it in place once it's cradled on the bow roller. Haven't ever had to do that, either... although we've also not yet ever had to use the "mud" setting on that one.
-Chris
TONTOROSS
Senior Member
What windless are you using to handle the weight? I was looking to buy a Mantas at the 75lbs range -- called Ideal, they said my windless was rated to about 45lbs. WTH!! A boat this size with a light duty windless. Anyway, buying a larger capable windless is not in the cards now. Still looking at Mantas in the 50lbs range, or a Sarca Ex cel.
C lectric
Guru
T.ROSS,
What is your windlass? I have a Lofrans Tigres on my 32 ft boat. Overkill maybe but better than undersized. I also use G7 1/4" chain.
However I have seen windlasses that were dinky yet they worked because the boat seldom anchored and then only in highly protected places. Maybe that's what your original owner did.
So what is your unit specifically?
What is your windlass? I have a Lofrans Tigres on my 32 ft boat. Overkill maybe but better than undersized. I also use G7 1/4" chain.
However I have seen windlasses that were dinky yet they worked because the boat seldom anchored and then only in highly protected places. Maybe that's what your original owner did.
So what is your unit specifically?
TONTOROSS
Senior Member
Mr. C. My Windless is an Ideal CWM 12V. Capasity etc. All other info is missing on the plate. As of now it has 150' of 3/8" chain. Many things have my attention. Anchor and devises is 2nd fiddle. They also bolted the chain to the bottom of the boat. There is a 20K Bruce on the working end. Everything I've read so far recommends an anchor in the 65lb range. Go figure.
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The Ideal website is not very intuitive, but if you go to the Service tab and scroll down you will see CWM listed as a Size 1. There is a lot of info on their website, but you have to stumble around all over the place to dig it out.
IDEAL WINDLASS COMPANY
IDEAL WINDLASS COMPANY
TONTOROSS
Senior Member
Thank you. I went there & contacted Ideal by phone prior to making my last post. For now, a 50lb'er will have to work 'till boat money for that project falls from the sky. I will address the short chain & the bolting to the bottom of the boat in the not to far distant future. (I hope).
dhays
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Thank you. I went there & contacted Ideal by phone prior to making my last post. For now, a 50lb'er will have to work 'till boat money for that project falls from the sky. I will address the short chain & the bolting to the bottom of the boat in the not to far distant future. (I hope).
A quick way to address the short chain for not much money is to add a 3 strand line to your chain for a combination rode. Simply adding 200' of line will give you a very good anchor rode.
I believe a combination (chain and line) is actually pretty common, especially on non-sail boats. That's what I have, 30' of 5/16 G4 chain and 150' of line. I would probably have a little more line but there was a misunderstanding at West Marine.
BTW: All the talk of super new gen anchors is interesting but my 33 lb claw anchor has served me well so until it doesn't, it's hard to justify a few hundred dollars on a replacement.
TONTOROSS
Senior Member
dhays - Thank you. That is exactly what I will do when I tackle the problem. How big a rode 5/8th or 3/4? I know it should'nt be to big for the "stretch" effect.? Your thoughts.
Look in a marine catalog for pre-spliced rodes. Match your chain size and then look at what size line they use.
dhays
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