How many, and what size, bilge pumps do you have?

Hi Everyone,

My boat has 3 bilge pumps. I'm thinking of changing them out - they appear to be original to the boat (1984), and putting larger pumps in.

I'm thinking of putting in three pumps, each 2,000 gph. But, thinking of going larger perhaps, but worried of going TOO large. Is there such a thing as TOO large a bilge pump, if I can fit it in the bilge? I don't want to upgrade hoses though - prefer to keep the current hoses - so that may limit my pump size.

Any preference on Jabsco or RULE? I have had VERY bad luck with the new "smart" RULE pumps...*

I prefer the old fashioned float switches.

Our boat is probably considered under-pumped by today's "don't leave the dock without 500 backups for every system crowd." I consider it under-pumped myself, but so far have not been motivated to do anything about it.

As built, GBs of our vintage had only one bilge pump, a manual one. At some point most owners or dealers would have installed at least one electric pump. This is the case in our boat. So we have a reasonably high-capacity electric pump in addition to the American Marine-installed manual pump.

The pump is a Rule, but not one of the so-called smart pumps.* It is controlled by a float switch which I mounted on a thick block of Plexiglas to position the float a bit higher than the pump, which is what the bilge pump people recommend.

But that's it. Obviously the boat has survived the last 39 years with this arrangement or however long it's had an electric pump of some sort. In the 13 years we've had the boat the electric pump has only gone off once on its own (as opposed to being tested) and that was when the intake filter in the fresh water line before the pump cracked and started leaking at a pretty good rate into the bilge. We were on a cruise at the time so were alerted to the problem by the cycling of the pump. We had a spare filter so it was an easy fix. But the boat wasn't taking on water, it was just moving water from the tanks to the bilge.

We also carry a portable electric pump that we bought at Home Depot for the purpose of pumping out the water tanks for the winter, a practice we abandoned many years ago. But we still have the pump and its hose fittings so that could be considered to be a "backup" bilge pump, but you'd have to be there to use it and it needs AC power to run.

I'd like to add a second 12vdc bilge pump--- it would be relatively easy to install and plumb. We just haven't gotten around to it yet and perhaps never will.

PS--- Just read Conrad's following post and he makes a good point I hadn't thought of.* We, too, have a shower sump pump in the engine room that could be used as a bilge pump if necessary.* And along those lines, the engines themselves, assuming they are running, can be used to evacuate large volumes of water from the bilge.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 1st of February 2012 01:01:17 PM

We have 2 electric Rule bilge pumps on our 32 footer, plus a Whale Gusher manual. Don't know the size of the Rules, but they are the old fashioned type c/w float switches - which have been replaced twice on one pump in the last two years.

The manual pump has a long suction hose that can be moved around depending on where the water has collected. It is currently an open ended hose but we are considering putting a strum box on the end to slightly lower the suction point. Another possibility is incorporating a check/non-return valve in the strum box.

We also have a shower sump pump that in theory could be used in an emergency.

I think the key is location location location.

Yes, if I count my shower sump pumps (two) I have a total of 5 pumps. And, I could shut off one of the engine raw water intake through hulls, cute the hose and use that to pump water out of the bilge by engine. I've seen, in SAIL magazine, people set up a Y valve in their raw water intake - one hose picks up water from through hull, other hose lays in bottom of bilge with a filter. I'm sure you could move ALOT of water with two engines running and picking up water from the bilge.

When I bought the boat last summer it had three bilge pumps, two sump pumps, four float switches and a funky manual On-Off switch which got one, sometimes two, of the pumps running most of the time. All were plumbed to the same hose outlet. Wiring was everywhere with some power coming direct from the battery and some from the panel. The manual bilge pump had a one-way valve which was corroded shut. I cleaned out what looked like a junkyard in the bilge and got one reliable float switch and pump working tied to an Auto-Off-Manual switch and the manual pump working. It's OK for now, but it's relatively high on my list to install a second, reliable high flow pump. Whale makes a nice-looking pump which can be mounted remotely and has an electronic switch/pickup for the bilge. Pros - easy access to the pump for maintenance, Cons - pump has to "suck" from bilge as well as "push" to outlet. Anyone had experience with these?

dvd

This is getting interesting.

DVD touched on a question I have, and that is the advisability of having a check valve in a bilge pump system.*

Our forward pump pushes the water (you hope it's water!) up about two feet before it exits through the hull; this in an approximate 5 foot hose run. When the pump stops the entire contents of the hose then drains back through the pump into the bilge, which is counter to the objective. A check valve at the pump discharge would presumably eliminate that issue.

However, as DVD mentions, if the check valve doesn't open in a timely fashion nothing gets pumped at all.

Another possible advantage to a remote bilge pump is that in tight quarters (directly under an engine for example) there may only be enough headroom for a pickup. I would think, although I've never had any direct experience, that a remote pump would be more than powerful enough to suck and push enough to get everything out - assuming that it is self priming.

Oh, and I would definitely have a separate hose/through hull for each pump; you don't want any restrictions in an emergency.

Not counting the shower sump, the Coot has three bilge pumps.* There are two electrical, 2000 GPH pumps: one under the forward cabin and one deep in the keel below the engine.* They both have float switches.* There is also a manual pump, capacity dependent upon the one pumping the handle.

We have a 3700 GPH in the forward bilge plus an a high water alarm*in addition to the automatic float switch.* There is also a 500*GPH shower*sump pump that we could use in an emergency .

In the engine room/aft bilge we have a 2000 GPH with float switch and a high water alarm.

In the emergency leak bag we have a 3700 GPH pump (DC) with*20 foot leads and sized alligator clips with 25 feet of collapsible 1.5" hose with the idea we could use it in either bilge.* It's been tested but never used as intended.

*

Bilge pumps , where do I start?
My main electric bilge pump in the Eng Rm is a rule 3000, activated by a normal float switch.
There are 3 main watertight compartments, the other 2 don't have sepearte bilge pumps but are connected thru the bilg pumping manifold that is pumped vai an electric clutch , main engine driven jabsco 1 1/4 " pump.
With this I can pump any individual compartment, this pump is also the deck/fire hose pump.
Also ther is a large diaphragm hand bilge pump that will pump from all 3 compartments.

The major back up is a submersible 240 Volt sump pump for my boat or another that I can get alongside.

There is no point in installing a pump with larger outlets than your existing hoses unless you are going to change them.

We have a 2000 Rule with float switch, and a whale gusher both OEM. I have often heard the manual us not really very useful if you get a leak. When no one is around nothing happens, and that in an emergency the flow will probably be more than one could keep up with you will probably be busy locating or trying to fix the leak, I don't really know what the capacity of these whale manual pumps is even with a scared pumper. I do carry a 110V. basement type pump which might be useful or not depending on the circumstance and if anyone is on board. I do plan to install an additional 2000 Rule 12V pump probably the same as the existing bilge pump but with the float mounted higher. I do have a very loud high water alarm mounted higher than the existing pump.
I pray none are tested in an emergency!
Steve W

markpierce wrote:
Not counting the shower sump, the Coot has three bilge pumps.* There are two electrical, 2000 GPH pumps: one under the forward cabin and one deep in the keel below the engine.* They both have float switches.* There is also a manual pump, capacity dependent upon the one pumping the handle.

Click to expand...

Same here. The manual one has a hand operated selectable valve so that one can choose between pumping the forward compartment (forward of the engine room bulkhead) or the aft compartment.

Well, this seems like a good time to get an answer to a question I have concerning my boat.

My bilge is divided into three sections. One forward where the holding tank is located, one in the center under the engine, and one aft.

The forward and aft sections each have a bilge pump but not the center section. Water has to build up to perhaps seven inches in depth before it overflows into the aft section and is pumped overboard by the aft bilge pump. This actually happened to me once when a water hose came off its fitting.

My educated guess is that this layout is intentional and is intended to keep from pumping oil overboard in case of an engine failure. That's the best I can come up with, perhaps someone can post an official reason. The boat was built in Canada in 1999.

Nothing, nada..I've got a small one that I run every now and then buy wiring it up to a 12v. Of course the boat doesn't run yet so there is really no need. When it does run there are about 5 pumps and two "crash" pumps which are the 1 1/4" jabsco hooked to the 671's.

rwidman wrote:
My educated guess is that this layout is intentional and is intended to keep from pumping oil overboard in case of an engine failure.

Click to expand...

*It is certainly plausible.* The narrowboats used on the canals in England, for example,*have separate bilge compartments under their engines and these compartments are separated from the rest of the boat's bilge by high sides, more than a foot in some cases, particularly on the older boats that used air-cooled Lister diesel engines.

Even if this was not done deliberately on your boat it seems like a*very good feature to have.

Marin wrote:rwidman wrote:
My educated guess is that this layout is intentional and is intended to keep from pumping oil overboard in case of an engine failure.

Click to expand...

*It is certainly plausible.* The narrowboats used on the canals in England, for example,*have separate bilge compartments under their engines and these compartments are separated from the rest of the boat's bilge by high sides, more than a foot in some cases, particularly on the older boats that used air-cooled Lister diesel engines.

Even if this was not done deliberately on your boat it seems like a*very good feature to have.

*I've got some oil catch basins under my mains.

rwidman wrote:
Well, this seems like a good time to get an answer to a question I have concerning my boat.

My bilge is divided into three sections. One forward where the holding tank is located, one in the center under the engine, and one aft.

The forward and aft sections each have a bilge pump but not the center section. Water has to build up to perhaps seven inches in depth before it overflows into the aft section and is pumped overboard by the aft bilge pump. This actually happened to me once when a water hose came off its fitting.

My educated guess is that this layout is intentional and is intended to keep from pumping oil overboard in case of an engine failure. That's the best I can come up with, perhaps someone can post an official reason. The boat was built in Canada in 1999.

My 2003*Monk is Canadian built also, the area of the bilge below the engines is separated and has no bilge pump, like*the Camano.

Maybe a Canadian regulation?

Steve W

Click to expand...

*

I have one Rule 3700 pump w/attached float switch & a Rule high water alarm located in the forward bilge area. In the aft part of the engine room, I have a Rule 2000 pump w/ a float switch. There is also a Whale manual located in the engiine room on the forward bulkhead; probably useless in a sinking situation; who wants to sit in a flooding engine and work a manual pump.

I have a smaller size Rule with the Water Witch bilge switch I recently installed in place of the float switch, and a separate Rule 3700 I installed about 2 years ago that is a few inches higher than the small pump. I installed a new through hull and lines for this pump and I have it wired into the horn for a high water alarm.

I have 2 "normal" ones. The other one is a high water, emergency bilge pump that sets off a very loud alarm outside if it activates. The main and emergency both have Ultra pump switches:

http://www.wolfwire.com/tefgel/pumpswitch.htm

I have two, both Rule 3700, the primary in the ER, other under the galley, ~ 12" higher. I have a fiberglass pan under the engine & transmission, to catch any oil leak I assume.

I have two Rule 3700's under the main engine, and a manual in the same space.* Also, a portable AC submersible pump.

The 3700's each have*dedicated 1-1/2" open lines.

The bilge is normally dry,*I use a wet/dry vac to remove small amounts of water.

A loud siren alarm*is connected to*a high bilge water sensor.**Two-tone alarms are connected to the lower bilge pump sensors.* If the pumps are activated,*alarms sound, but they can be defeated without stopping the pumps.*

(4) 2,000gph pumps.

(4) high water alarms

(4) bilge counters with bright lights at the lower helm

(2) 1,000gph shower sumps mounted low in the bilges

First, check valves: A good friend had his boat flooded to the point he got totally rewired and a new engine, because he had a check valve in the bilge pump line, instead of an anti-siphon. The check valve failed, and since the hose ran from the thru hull directly to the bilge pump, with no anti siphon loop, when the rocking of the boat immersed the outlet, in came the water, till there was an awful lot of it. Only vigilance by the dock guys saved him. So if all you have is a check valve, between you and sinking, think about it.

I have two dedicated bilge pumps, both Rule 2000. Both on float switches. I tried a "Water Witch" about 15 yrs ago when they were new. It failed after about a year. Not interested in trying them again. I also have a shower sump with another Rule 2000. The water has to rise to the top of the sump and flood in before this one will do anything, so I don't consider it to be part of the bilge pumping arrangement. I also have a Y valve on my holding tank pumpout, the branch goes to a bilge sucker, so if I really need to suck, the macerator pump will help out. And last, certainly not least, the Honda fire pump. 5 hp gas driven, with an inlet hose (2.0") that you can stick into the bilge and put those Rule pumps out of business. I hope never to need to use that one.

My bilge pumps have been tested, twice. One of the ball valves on a head outlet split, and as we were using the boat at the time, the incessant cycling of the bilge pump woke us, averting disaster. The second time was just a dribble, but one that went on for quite a long time, from the packing on the rudder stock. Hard to inspect, easy to fix, but without good bilge pumping arrangements, a potential sinking.

We have 2 bilges and 2 2000 pumps. there is also a valve on raw water intake hose just before the strainer. Close the normal thru hull and open the emergency valve and with engine running, raw water pump acts as another bilge pump. But if the emer valve is opened accidently withe engine off, the bilge will flood.

I installed radio shack buzzers to sound when the pumps run because the associated light is not in a visible spot and we did have a domestic water hose in bilge let go un noticed. we also have a 1/2 hp AC sump pump from Sears that I hope to use to save someone else's boat some day.

3 x1500 Rules. One in the fwd compartment under the V-berth sole. The other two in the engine area.

1 old converted rule diaphram freshwater pump that cracked the internal chamber divider web and won't hold pressure but makes a good bilge pump that will pull all but a few cupsfull of water out of the bilge.

1 manual double action Rule. Can't remember the model.

1 high water bilge alarm although it looks like this year it will need a new switch.

And several buckets.

Marin wrote:rwidman wrote:
My educated guess is that this layout is intentional and is intended to keep from pumping oil overboard in case of an engine failure.

Click to expand...

*It is certainly plausible.* The narrowboats used on the canals in England, for example,*have separate bilge compartments under their engines and these compartments are separated from the rest of the boat's bilge by high sides, more than a foot in some cases, particularly on the older boats that used air-cooled Lister diesel engines.

Even if this was not done deliberately on your boat it seems like a*very good feature to have.

Not that good a feature, at least in my experience.* When I had a potable water leak, it leaked into that area and had to get seven inches deep before it overflowed into the aft bilge and set off the alarm and began pumping.* I would guess twenty gallons or so.

Also, when I clean the center bilge, I gave to stick a manual pump down between the engine and the hull and manually pump the water either into buckets or into the aft bilge so it can be pumped out.

In my mind, I think the chance of an engine failure that would dump all the oil into the bilge would be very small.* You would pretty much need to puncture the oil pan.

*

I'd rather run the risk of pumping a bit of oil overboard instead of having a foot of water in my engine room - if you figure (for my boat) an engine room bilge about 1' deep, 14' wide, and about 12' long - that is about 170 cubic feet of water - at 62 lbs a cubic foot - means I could have 10,400 pounds of water - heavier, if salt water - sloshing around my bilge. Once free surface effect takes over - all that weight could be catastrophic.
Even if the water overflowed to the fwd and aft compartments where bilge pumps take over - I still have no way to easily evacuate the water from the engine room.

2 reasons for bilge pumps.* One to get the run of the mill water out...can be 500gph or so if installed properly.* Second to stop the boat from sinking ONCE you stemmed the flow of water coming in from a casualty.* Till you slow the water coming in from most thru hull failures, shaft log/packing issues, hose failures, etc...etc....even 3/3000gph pumps may not be enough.

The issue with many bilge pumps is they can't meet their rating because of install issues and corrosion issues lowering the voltage and burning them up.*

There are some decent explanations of how to install bilge pumps on the net or in books but none of them are totally correct because there is no pat answer to cover every boat.* You have to look at your water ingress and pump capability as a total system and each pump as a separate system that will perform the way you expect it to when you really need it.

Lots of pumps are better than a few...but only marginally better if not installed correctly with lots in mind.

If you are serious about damage control...first and foremost concentrate at keeping water out or stemming it's flow once an emergency starts...after that...the only pumps that may keep you afloat well enough you can really address your emergency wuld be a 1.5 inch trash pump or bigger.

In the last 10 years I have worked on at least 200 (prbably way more) salvage jobs raising sunk*boats.* I'm buying a trash pump before I start cruising heavily next year.

Annie has a watertight bulkhead aft and we call the entire aft section the lazarette. It has a 12 volt Jabsco 12 volt diaphragm pump on a float switch with manual override plus a high capacity 30 gallon per minute 110volt impeller type JABSCO pump. In the main bilge there are two of the JABSCO diaphragm 12 volt pumps plus another high capacity 110 volt JABSCO impeller type. In addition there is another of the JABSCO impeller type that is a wash down pump that will pump 30 gpm out of the bilge by flipping two ball valves that change the pickup and discharge points.In addition to all of that ther are several pumps in the bilge that collect condensate from AC's and stuffing boxes that will pump overboard if the float switches are actuated. Over the years I have had what I consider a rather high failure rate with float switches. Every time I go into the bilge I flip all of the float switches to check their function. On the main 12 volt pumps ther are two float switches in parallel so I'd one fails the other will activate the pumps. One of my next projects is to put a siren on the boat that is In parallel with the pump so if the boat is unattended the siren will go off if the pump comes on.

If we are talking bilge pumps. The size to me isn't important. If I am just de watering the seepage that accumulates in the bilge.

If I have a hole in the boat none of the available bilge pumps will keep up with the water coming in.

I have a super large *dewatering pump run off a generator in case of emergencys.

so I use small bilge (*250 gph) pumps with an alarm on the float switch.

I can't see spending a large ammount of money on a large bilge pump to pump 4 or 5 gallons overboard once or twice a week.

I also have a safty seacock that will allow me to use the engine to pump water overboard.

Just close the seacock and* pull the plug.

SD


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-- Edited by skipperdude on Friday 3rd of February 2012 02:05:15 PM