Cell & Wifi Boosters Revisited

The friendliest place on the web for anyone who enjoys boating.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.

kev_rm

Senior Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2016
Messages
458
Location
United States
Vessel Name
Kismet
Hi all,

I've been looking to get a new wifi and/or cell booster, and have read the couple of threads over the last year or so, but not seeing anything I particularly like.

I have a Wilson 3G booster that acts as an external antenna/booster for a mifi device. It works well but does not support 4g/LTE or wifi.

I've looked at the Wirie device, it does not support verizon at all which is a non starter for me, as VZW is the top choice stateside for coverage. (also wirie does not support T-Mobile which we use for binging netflix)

So, left with the bullet wifi booster (or variants) which looks pretty good and then only see the wilson cradle, which I am skeptical of in terms of technology.

Am I missing something?

again ideal requirements:
- will boost 4g verizon as well as other US carriers (even if at 3g)
- boost wifi
- supports international carriers e.g. GSM networks
 
I think Shakespeare now carries a cell booster. I think I saw on at Home Depot.
 
I am unaware of a single device that will boost both wifi and cell. But they are fundamentally different technologies, so other than a switch to choose one over the other (ie, wifi when available, cell otherwise), which can be well handled by a third device (like a cradlepoint router/access point), I suggest you should focus on solving your wifi and cell needs separately.

On the wifi side, the bullet M2 is really good. It will give you more than the legal limit of power, depending on the gain of the antenna you use. The only problem with the bullet is that it is not very easy to configure for someone without at least networking knowledge. Devices like the wirie address that problem, but it isn't that difficult to learn what you need to know, even if you are starting from scratch.
 
You want a weBoost 4G WIRED cradle cellular amp. It should cost about $180 in Amazon. The antenna that comes with that is magnetic and needs to to be placed in the middle of an 11" steel pizza pan. That pan/antenna can be burried in a pilothouse ceiling inside a fiberglass roof.

For the most part, having a 3G amp today isn't as good as just walking outside with the phone and standing up.

Most of the other vendors, like Shakespeare and Digital Antenna have not shown a real 4G amp. The FCC has been very slow to give new licenses because of interference. Wilson got one very early for what's now the weBoost and is the reason it's available today. Getting a 3G amp is a total waste of money today.

The typical Bullet WiFi solution is the best you can get. I don't think the Wirie solution is worth the money. What you really need is an inside WiFi router and a Bullet fits best with that architecture.
 
If it helps...

We've used a very simple, reasonably inexpensive external "Wave Magnum" B/G/N WiFi adapter from Radiolabs for several years now, with good results in most places, "through" buildings, etc. It's about as simple as it gets, I think: USB from laptop to adapter/antenna (power over USB), driver, done. We just use a single USB extension to place the adapter wherever, usually just inside our saloon windshield. Only had to move it to the bridge once...

I just happened to be looking at beginning to use our Win10 laptop as a hotspot, turns out Radiolabs doesn't have a Win10 driver for our older end-of-life adapter... but at the same time, I also saw their newer current generation product -- "Wave Stealth AC" does have Win10 drivers and also handles both bands.

They also offer compatible routers and so forth, too... although for us, the Win10 hotspot thing seems about as much as we'd benefit from, so far...

-Chris
 
You want a weBoost 4G WIRED cradle cellular amp. It should cost about $180 in Amazon. The antenna that comes with that is magnetic and needs to to be placed in the middle of an 11" steel pizza pan. That pan/antenna can be burried in a pilothouse ceiling inside a fiberglass roof.

For the most part, having a 3G amp today isn't as good as just walking outside with the phone and standing up.

Most of the other vendors, like Shakespeare and Digital Antenna have not shown a real 4G amp. The FCC has been very slow to give new licenses because of interference. Wilson got one very early for what's now the weBoost and is the reason it's available today. Getting a 3G amp is a total waste of money today.

The typical Bullet WiFi solution is the best you can get. I don't think the Wirie solution is worth the money. What you really need is an inside WiFi router and a Bullet fits best with that architecture.

Thank you - ya wasn't necessarily looking for a combined device.. more concerned about VZW 4g. I like the above recommendations as well MVTRaveller seems to concur on bullet.

Can't wait to epoxy in a pizza pan :D
 
Can't wait to epoxy in a pizza pan :D

No, wait, you need a marine grade, ABYC-compliant pizza pan. $1,499.99 on sale.

BTW, thanks Jeff for boiling it down so succinctly.
 
I've just added a CelFi GO
https://www.cel-fi.com.au/cel_fi_go_repeater.html

It covers 4G and 3G. Approval was a slow process. I saw it at a boat show in May when it was 'due for release next month'. Approval finally came through in Dec! I'm yet to get anywhere that is remote to test how well it performs, but it seems pretty good so far. Slow boats can use the 'stationary' version which has -100dB gain.
 

A wireless cellular amp like that is not appropriate for a trawler unless it is over about 90 feet LOA or is made of steel. A normal fiberglass trawler cannot obtain the proper separation between the internal and external antennas and will either blow an internal fuse or auto-reduce gain to the point where it is providing no amplification - sort of akin to putting a microphone in front of a speaker causing a loud shriek.

Most amps don't show the auto-gain reduction so the end result is that the amp doesn't provide the amplification you think it should. It just won't end up working well.

For most of the boats we all have, a wired/cradle cellular amp is required. They provide the proper separation with just 15 feet of separation between the magnetic/outside antenna and the cradle.

Most of these "wireless" amps were made for cars. Cars have steel roofs to provide the signal separation and will usually work pretty well. Not so much with trawlers...
 
A wireless cellular amp like that is not appropriate for a trawler unless it is over about 90 feet LOA or is made of steel. A normal fiberglass trawler cannot obtain the proper separation between the internal and external antennas and will either blow an internal fuse or auto-reduce gain to the point where it is providing no amplification - sort of akin to putting a microphone in front of a speaker causing a loud shriek.

Most amps don't show the auto-gain reduction so the end result is that the amp doesn't provide the amplification you think it should. It just won't end up working well.

For most of the boats we all have, a wired/cradle cellular amp is required. They provide the proper separation with just 15 feet of separation between the magnetic/outside antenna and the cradle.

Most of these "wireless" amps were made for cars. Cars have steel roofs to provide the signal separation and will usually work pretty well. Not so much with trawlers...

The CelFi GO is a wired system.
https://www.cel-fi.com.au/files/CelFi-GO-Telstra-Stationary.pdf
 

I'm sorry. It isn't. It's a wireless system with 2 antennas.

Wired system:

- Comes with a cradle.
- A single phone can be put into the cradle and that single device will be amplified
- Words like "separation" and "isolation" usually don't show up in the installation manual


Wireless system:

- Includes 2 antenna - inside and outside
- Amplifies multiple devices in proximity of the inside antenna
- Words like "separation" and "isolation" always show up in the installation manual because they are critical to getting adequate performance



I would strongly suggest that you return the device. Unless your trawler is made of steel or is over about 90 feet, it's not going to work. I've been writing about these things and testing cellular amps for more than 10 years on boats.

I also don't believe their 100 dB specification. There's some type of spec game or alternate fact because no government anywhere would allow a cellular device to put out that incredibly high level of LTE-interfering signal. Most amps create from 30 to 65 dB amplification. This one claims 35 dB more than the max I've seen in a consumer product. Every 3 dB is a doubling of power output. So 35 dB would be about ten 3 dB increases or 2^10 power increase. That's about 1,000 times the power output. I don't think so.

For what it's worth, I've owned and tested many wired amps. I now have a wireless cellular amp because (drum roll)...I have a steel boat.
 
Ok, I see what you are saying.

1. It is approved for use in Australia. The approval process took a long time, perhaps because of the high gain for the building/marine version. The mobile (car) version has lower gain. There were some non-approved amps used here a few years ago but their impact on the network was disruptive and when users were threatened with $250,000 dollar fines for continued use those non-approved units were soon in the trash can.

2. Your ten years is a long time, lots of innovation etc possible in that time period. How well the GO solves the issues you note I cannot yet say. I understand that the unit I have powers down when there are cell towers nearby so that it does not screw the network for other users. No doubt thorough testing of that functionality was the key part of certification and why it took so long to be approved. The Go supplier here is an established communications system provider, and has had other models approved for some time. The GO is an improvement on their other offerings because of the 4G and autoswitch to 3G, and also its compact size.

3. It is working. How well I don't know as I cannot readily get to an area of really low signal. I have only had it installed for a few weeks.

The real test will not be until mid year when I am up on the Outer Reef again. That was the reason I bought it. It was either that or a Satellite system, which is just too expensive for me for data at this point.

I leave it off unless signal is poor. Last week at anchor I had very weak 4G signal on the phone. Turned on the GO and I had 4 bars on the phone. Now, the GO auto switches between 4G and 3G, and I don't recall whether the phone was still on 4G when it had 4 bars. It is possible that it was 3G, and that the phone would have had a strong 3G signal by itself. I'll try and check that in the next couple of weeks.

I have the external antenna mounted quite high. Its base is 12' above the floor of the flybridge. At present the indoor antenna is in the pilothouse (at flybridge floor height) but has some horizontal separation from the external antenna as well. It is in a cupboard as I had not yet decided where to mount it. Given that it has a decent length cable, and bearing in mind your comment about separation, I will try and mount the indoor antenna down in the saloon to give it the best chance of good performance.
 
1. It is approved for use in Australia.

That doesn't mean anything useful. It is made for cars, houses, and buildings. They realize that boats need it too so made some marketing statements about it. It needed no approval for that marketing.

2. Your ten years is a long time, lots of innovation etc possible in that time period. ... I understand that the unit I have powers down when there are cell towers nearby so that it does not screw the network for other users.

I'm not testing devices from 10 years ago. To be clear, I've generally had the latest devices or were given some by manufacturers. The one I'm using now was purchased in June.

The problem isn't that the device will power down when you're near a tower - that's no issue at all. The problem is that you can't get the separation between the inside and outside antennas with a fiberglass boat. So the feedback of the inside antenna receiving the amplified transmission from the outside antenna causes the amp to seriously power down. The result is that you'd get much better range by just going up to your flybridge. Seriously - you'll do better.


3. ...Last week at anchor I had very weak 4G signal on the phone. Turned on the GO and I had 4 bars on the phone. Now, the GO auto switches between 4G and 3G, and I don't recall whether the phone was still on 4G when it had 4 bars. It is possible that it was 3G, and that the phone would have had a strong 3G signal by itself. I'll try and check that in the next couple of weeks.

It is highly unlikely that you went from 0-1 bars with a weak signal to 4 bars with a wireless amp. It just doesn't happen that way. And certainly not for an extended period. The feedback will provide a short term "bar" increase. It won't provide very good voice/data improvements and if left running, will blow an internal fuse.

The technology of a wireless amp like that will work just as poorly for 3G as 4G.

I'm sorry to bring this bad news - I've said more than enough. I'm sure the device was fairly expensive. If you can return it, do it quickly before its too late and get a wired amp that will actually provide the benefits you're seeking (while being less expensive).
 
I have also similar user reports to Isequent and would recommend anyone interested have a close look at the cel fi go material. I have ordered and will have installed next week. The antennas are wired.
Hamo
 
...have a close look at the cel fi go... The antennas are wired...

Ummm...the antennas have to be wired. The point is, there are 2 antennas so it's a wireless solution. I'd be shocked to learn that you see any benefit from it. As a test, install it, try it out. Then turn it off and go stand up at the highest point on your boat outside. I'll bet you get as good, if not more bars.

...save the packaging so you can return it...
 
I have also similar user reports to Insequent and would recommend anyone interested have a close look at the cel fi go material. I have ordered and will have installed next week. The antennas are wired.
Hamo
Welcome aboard Hamo.
I`m sure Aussies will appreciate you reporting about the installation, and how the system works, especially over time as you venture to places it is really needed.
 
I'm in the market to update my booster. The one I have is almost 15 years old and has worked fantastic up to the last couple years. I have a external Digital Antenna to the booster. The inside is a "pad" that attaches to the phone. Usually it improves about 1-2 bars. Unfortunately it's not working anymore. I. Interested in either the cel-fi go or the Weboost 4g. Suggestions and recommendations wanted
 
Interested in either the cel-fi go or the Weboost 4g. Suggestions and recommendations wanted

Unless you have a 90 foot boat or a steel boat, getting a wireless amp is a waste of money - you cannot get the separation between the outside and inside antennas. Instead, find a cradle solution that you put the phone into. The cradle connects to the amp which connects to the outside antenna.

The small antenna on the weBoost works well on an 11"+ steel pizza pan. The inexpensive weBoost model has a cradle - one of the few that do.

The cel fi product has no place on most boats. It won't work because it cannot get the needed separation between the two antennas. When that happens, the amp automatically reduces gain and because there is so little separation on a boat, the gain goes away completely. What happens is that without the separation, the inside antenna is picking up the signal coming from the outside antenna causing a feedback loop. It has to reduce the gain or else it will blow itself up. Older models had a fuse inside which would blow when there was too little separation.

All of those mobile wireless amps like the cel fi were made for cars where the steel roof provides the needed separation between the antennas.

A cradle shields the signal from the outside antenna and will work famously. I've been using them for more than 10 years although I just got my first wireless amp because I now have a steel boat. That's working well too but would fail miserably in a fiberglass boat.

I used 2 models of the weBoost cradle on aCappella for 5 years previously. I just updated it to the latest version about a year ago and I left it on the boat for the next owner. Buy the amp and the trawler comes along for free...
 
I understand the separation issue. I have a cradle I can hook up or use the pad. Why not use one of those and forgo the inside antenna? I can probably achieve some pretty good separation (30-40 feet)
 
What about just an external antenna without any amp? I noticed that both of my USB modems have mini jacks for an external antenna. Obviously it will only help the USB modem get a better signal and not any cell phones, but depending on what you are trying to accomplish, it seems like an option.
 
What about just an external antenna without any amp? I noticed that both of my USB modems have mini jacks for an external antenna. Obviously it will only help the USB modem get a better signal and not any cell phones, but depending on what you are trying to accomplish, it seems like an option.



Unfortunately both my wife and I need voice, data and text. We've run our various businesses when cruising in remote areas and have gotten used to where a signal can be achieved. One of us is Verizon and one ATT. It's a good price to pay for the hobby. Now our kids are fighting us for strong signal as well
 
Two things:

1. The previous 15 year old Digital Antenna amp that you had was pre-LTE. Both the antenna and especially the amp are not handling the new frequencies used with LTE. That's why you noticed it stopped working - it's still working fine but not on the new frequencies. Always, always get a cellular amp that handles 4G/LTE native frequencies. Some lie about it. weBoost doesn't. I don't know if cel fi is good for LTE or not - didn't look into it because it's the wrong things from the get-go because it's wireless.

2. An antenna without an amp will pretty much do nothing (except, perhaps, on a sailboat). Every connector reduces gain by 0.5 dB. The typical system will have a connector at the phone, a connector at the pigtail (small) cable, a connector to a larger, low loss cable, and a connector at the antenna. That's 2 dB loss. Then the cable itself will have significant loss at LTE frequencies - about another 1-3 dB depending on length. The antenna is most often a 4 dB antenna. So the antenna is just making up for the losses experiences from the system itself. Instead, put a 34 dB - 50 dB amp in-between (the typical amplificatins) and the amp blows away the system loss. An antenna by itself will often provide a signal output higher off the water which does have some benefit since cellular is line-of-sight. But to go to the effort of putting it up, why not have an amp too?
 
Two things:

1. The previous 15 year old Digital Antenna amp that you had was pre-LTE. Both the antenna and especially the amp are not handling the new frequencies used with LTE. That's why you noticed it stopped working - it's still working fine but not on the new frequencies. Always, always get a cellular amp that handles 4G/LTE native frequencies. Some lie about it. weBoost doesn't. I don't know if cel fi is good for LTE or not - didn't look into it because it's the wrong things from the get-go because it's wireless.

2. An antenna without an amp will pretty much do nothing (except, perhaps, on a sailboat). Every connector reduces gain by 0.5 dB. The typical system will have a connector at the phone, a connector at the pigtail (small) cable, a connector to a larger, low loss cable, and a connector at the antenna. That's 2 dB loss. Then the cable itself will have significant loss at LTE frequencies - about another 1-3 dB depending on length. The antenna is most often a 4 dB antenna. So the antenna is just making up for the losses experiences from the system itself. Instead, put a 34 dB - 50 dB amp in-between (the typical amplificatins) and the amp blows away the system loss. An antenna by itself will often provide a signal output higher off the water which does have some benefit since cellular is line-of-sight. But to go to the effort of putting it up, why not have an amp too?



Appreciate the thought process. I've discussed this with a friend and we came to the same conclusions about LTE, etc. we're figuring the towers were hitting have been upgraded. I've also mentioned to him the spacing of his external to internal antenna. I know of two people with new systems that haven seen a difference. I figure that's the problem. Makes sense and none of their installation instructions mentioned it.
 
In my earlier post I used the term "wired". I should have written "cabled".
I also recommend those members considering LTE have a read of the cel-fi GO smart signal repeater (stationary) material . My understanding is the signal received at the external antenna gets to the internal antenna via cables (and the repeater). Not via wireless. How well it works in known poor signal areas I will let you know in about a week.
 
Boat - Cell booster

Unfortunately, I have to agree with Jeffrey S as I have had poor luck with these as well, But I did not try as many as others have. The advertising is so tempting & such that I get sucked in.

I have tried three of the different manufacturer cell boosters in the last 5 years & they were all wireless with an inside antenna & outside antenna on a big long stick 10 feet up off the fly bridge & I had no luck with any of them.

My boat is 46 foot overall length & is made of fiberglass & wood, so I can't say anything about any other material. They did not deliver performance as advertised.

I even put a big metal cooking pan around the inside antenna & a big round & flat metal pan like a Pizza pan under the outside antenna & still it did not work as advertised. Just could not get separation.

Maybe if my boat was steel it would have worked, but it did not work for me. A Hard wired internal connection to the cell phone would probably be the only solution for a small boat like mine. Maybe technology will Improve with time.

Over a decade or longer ago, before the forced changeover to digital, I had a old style analogue 3 watt phone in a bag that I hard wired in to my boat & used coax to hook to an outside tall cell antenna & it worked awesomely !

I wish they still allowed those to still be used. Fantastic operation.

It worked excellent. But that was back then & this is now. If any one here on TF gets one that will work at 100% efficiency & delivers the dB's, lets us know which one & what you had to do to get it to work properly.

Good luck.

Thanks.

m.
 
My understanding is the signal received at the external antenna gets to the internal antenna via cables (and the repeater). Not via wireless.

I've been involved in a few hundred installations of cellular amps. You're not following what the problem is. Forget what you think is happening. Consider this...

The inside antenna is close to your phone. It picks up the normal cellular signals from your cellular equipment inside that room. There's no change to your phone - it works like normal.

The amp then amplifies that signal and sends it out the outside antenna. And you're right, those antennas are wired or cabled or whatever you want to use to describe it. That is all how it is supposed to work.

Now think about this...

If the inside antenna and the outside antenna are too "close," then the radio frequencies being sent out the outside antenna to the towers are also received by the inside antenna. It's just radio and unless that inside antenna is isolated in some way, it will "hear" the amplified frequencies being sent out the outside antenna. Isolation happens by materials (steel) or distance.

Since anything received by the inside antenna is amplified again, it creates like radio-amplification-loop which within a couple of milliseconds would blow out the amp because the signal gets amplified over and over greatly increasing the signal amplitude through each loop. This is no different than the screech heard when you put a microphone in front of a large speaker. The slightest sound is amplified over-and-over and the result is an incredible overdrive.

Cellular amps are made to detect this overdrive - it's easy because the signal strength gets above a threshold. When that happens, the amp automatically turns down the gain. That's just like the microphone example where turning down the volume will make the screech go away (or moving the mic further from the speaker).

On a fiberglass boat with the two antennas within about 45 feet of each other, the gain is reduced so much that there is no amplification being made. At about 45 feet of separation (tough to do on a trawler) there will be some amplification. At 90 feet of separation, the amplification will work pretty well. Otherwise, it's better to just go outside with the phone and stand higher. This is the reason why people installing wireless amps on boats find that they don't work. The cel fi go is a wireless amp.

Now consider a cradle used instead of the inside antenna. That cradle is designed to have a few inches of range. In needs the phone to be in direct contact. It can't "hear" the output from the outside antenna. The result is a system that actually works. The nice thing is that these wired/cradle amplifiers are significantly less expensive. Usually about $180 vs $500+.

So the key, like the microphone example, is getting separation between the inside antenna and the outside antenna. A steel boat will give that although even there, placement is important because boats have windows and other mechanisms that allow signals to slip inside. Cars have a full sheet metal roof, enough to provide good separation between the inside and outside antennas even when there is only a few feet of separation. Put one of these amps on a fiberglass Corvette, and it won't work either.

So there's nothing special about the cel fi or any reason to dislike their specific products. It's the entire class that won't work with most boats. You'll install it and convince yourself that you're seeing a couple of extra bars. But be honest with yourself and you'll see. There'll be no added amplification and you'll get no better range with the phone. Again, it's not the cel fi product. It's physics. They're happy to have unknowing people buy their $500 product because they won't really be able to tell if it's working or not. These manufacturers also have no understanding about boats and their material composition. If it works in a car, why not a boat, right?

Before it comes, carefully measure the real distance between where the inside and outside antennas will be on your boat. See if you can even get 45 feet - probably not. Call cel fi and ask for technical support and ask them specifically what will happen if the two antennas have the separation you measure without a steel roof. They'll probably tell you that you need 40 feet - and that's about the minimum for a 50 dB antenna to get some limited amplification (where the auto-gain reduction starts to allow 5% of the amplification to go through). They claim 100 dB which is a stretch that I don't actually believe although Australian laws might well be different than US laws.

Save the packaging or just reject the package when delivered and hope for a full refund. Or keep it all and hopefully learn the $500 lesson it will provide.
 
Last edited:
Jeffrey s: what do you think of using the Digital Antenna Bullet through a Weboost 4Gm? Instead of using the interior antenna I was going to use the pad I have or a cradle I have?
 
Jeffrey s: what do you think of using the Digital Antenna Bullet through a Weboost 4Gm? Instead of using the interior antenna I was going to use the pad I have or a cradle I have?

I have a weBoost 4Gx so I'm quite familiar with their product line.

The new Digital Antenna Bullet (not to be confused with the Ubiquiti Bullet WiFi modem) is a pretty nice looking product. It's expensive. I had to laugh at the pdf specification sheet. For gain they showed 4-9Bi which is an obvious typo. It most likely should be 4-dBi. Somehow the "d" got flipped around to a 9. That antenna is clearly a 4 dB antenna just like I described in a previous posting about most cellular antennas. The design looks good and it appears to be wicked rugged. I do like Digital Antenna antennas too.

That Bullet antenna would replace the outside antenna although I'd try the weBoost outside antenna first since it comes with the product. You'd still need some type of connectivity between the iPad and the amplifier. I don't know a way to do that other than with the weBoost inside antenna. There's no antenna jack on the iPad (which could be used to bypass the inside antenna). The whole thing just isn't going to work well again, because of inside/outside separation issues.

There's also no large cradle for iPads/tablets. The way we solved that on aCappella was to put a phone or MiFi (depending on the cellular network we're using) into the cradle and then use the iPad over WiFi to that amp'd device.
 

Latest posts

Back
Top Bottom