Florida out-of-state reciprocity

Sorry if this has been covered before, but tried to do a search and couldn't find a link. Point me in the right direction is there are links. We're planning to leave this fall from Maryland for a trip down the ICW and spend several months in FL, living aboard our Sealine 420 Statesman. We are documented and have MD decals.
According to my reading of Florida regs, we can stay for 90 consecutive days, and then have to register with a county tax collector. Does this registration involve a transfer of funds or is it simply a notification that you're still in FL? Do cruisers actually do this, or ignore it? It's a pain to go back up to Georgia for a fill up to prove you're not in FL for 90 days.
Any words of wisdom and practical experience are appreciated for these first time adventurers.

I think that you are reading the regs correctly. As long as you don't stay in Florida for more than 6 months, you don't have to pay any taxes. If you do, you will have to register and be liable for the difference in sales tax you paid in Maryland vs Florida and any personal property taxes.

The so called sojourner's registration lets you stay in the state for 3-6 months if you have another valid state registration.

I suspect that most boater's ignore this, but of course it depends. If for example, you stay on a mooring in Marathon for several months, you may get flagged. But if you keep moving, no worries.

David

What you are talking about, is the infamous Florida Sojourner Permit. Actually this law applies to RVs as well. The long and the short of it is that you are supposed to apply for this permit if you are in FL more than 90 days. However, almost no one seems to comply. It is the responsibility of each county and most counties are confused and unsure of what it is and how to do it. So long as you have a state sticker from some other state which indicates that you have paid your taxes somewhere, you may be passed over and ignored. Over the past 5 years that I have been following this, I know of hundreds of cruisers in FL and no one has yet been stopped so far as Iknow. I do know a few people who have actually complied with the rule. They report that it is hard to find a county tax office who can even process it. Some counties only have one or two offices who handle it and getting to the correct office can be a challenge. Some friends just went through this in Manatee county but their Maine tax sticker had expired, and they wanted to be sure to be in compliance. As far as i can tell this subject is not widely known and most boaters are satisfied to take the risk and plead ignorance if questioned.

This is from Judy Waldman as posted on this forum in December, 2007

RE: Florida Cruising
There is nothing new in the Florida maritime tax laws; nonetheless, the issue of "Sojourner's Permit" has come up on every website that I follow. Here is what I have recently posted elsewhere:


Firstly, I suggest calling Charles Martin at the Florida Department of Revenue: (850) 487-6757 (or a Fl. maritime attorney) for specific and accurate information or advice.

My understanding is that the Sojourner's Permit is for a boat owner, non-Florida resident, who has his boat registered in another state. That boat can then come to Florida, buy a Sojourner's Permit at DMV, and spend either 90 continuous days in the State of Florida or up to 183 days in a 12 month period. So for example, a boat that has a NY registration can come to Fl., purchase a Sojourner's Permit and stay here for 89 days and then go to Bahamas or another state, and then return for another 89 days and then can come back for an additional 5 days; or the vessel may stay for 90 continuous days but not return within the 12 month period. NOTE: this is related to the USE tax and is not at all applicable to the SALES tax on a vessel purchased in the State of Florida. The purchaser of a boat in Fl., through a licensed broker, by a non-resident, has 3 exemptions that allow the boat to remain in the state for
particular time periods, the most common being the 90 day exemption.


Judy Waldman
Yacht Broker

I know, personally, of several Canadian boats and their owners that have no US registration of any kind that have been here for years. I do not understand it at all. Seems like we punish our own sometimes.
Bottom line....stay low...perhaps remove the Maryland registration numbers insofar that could be a red flag. Pretty much a very hard to enforce law. You could get caught but you can also get caught going 75 in 65 on the interstate. I would take my chances. I was a Texas Resident here for 2 years with a documented boat, no worries.
I would bet, as another poster mentioned, on a mooring (or anchor) you are like a lone car running 80 in a 70 but in a marina like a car in the middle of a pack all going 80 you will be ok. I have been here since 09 in numerous marinas and never seen boats checked at the pier. They, as a general rule have no idea when you arrives. Good luck.

Afterthought.....just how in the hell does FL get by with this stuff, last time I checked there is a portion of the Constitution that concerns itself with interstate commerce, and with my limited understanding it would seem this stuff would be a violation.

.perhaps remove the Maryland registration numbers insofar that could be a red flag.

Having MD numbers means you havepaid the MD sales tax. That lets the officials know that you have paid a tax somewhere and they are more likely to leave you alone. Having no state sticker may make you more visible. WE had to pay sales tax in MD. Now we renew our sticker sticker $5/yer that shows we paid our tax. FL is looking for boats who have not paid a tax. I also know Canadian boats who havFL Sojourners permit is a use tax. Any boat, any state any country is liable. But having a tax sticker from another state does give you some cover.

The rule is poorly understood and very weakly enforced. Lets keep it that way.

This has been hashed over many times. If you bring a boat into FL to register and have owned the boat for more than six months, no tax or additional tax is due. Many county offices do not understand the state regulations so ask before you register.

Make sure everyone inderstsnds that sales/use tax is a one time thing...or not...but every year if in FL for more than 90 days...you are supposed to register the boat there, even if registered eksewhere.

It sounds to me like nobody really knows what the law requires so no cop is going to spend his time cruising marinas looking for boats with out of state stickers.


Much ado about nothing.

Likely marinas will want to know if you have valid registration/documentation, as well as adequate insurance. If you're in a marina on January first in California, you would likely need to prove you're not subject to property tax and even use tax.

Greetings,
Mr. MP. Insurance? For sure but I really don't think the marina cares one way or the other if you're "legal".

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. MP. Insurance? For sure but I really don't think the marina cares one way or the other if you're "legal".

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If you don't believe me, google some California marina sites regarding lease requirements. Some, like the Berkeley Marina, require registration and insurance documentation for even a one-night stay. Every year, my marina (Vallejo Municipal) requires me to submit annually registration and insurance documents. California is well known for its aggressive tax-collection enforcement. Its revenue needs are without limit.

Greetings,
Mr. MP. I thought this thread was about FL marinas but since you qualify California marinas specifically, I don't doubt it is true for CA but through all our marina stays on the east coast (numerous) we have been asked for proof of insurance but never anything else. We have seen county officials cruising the docks around Jan 1st taking down boat names for tax purposes AND we have been dinged for taxes but nobody has ever asked to see any cruising documentation or registration of any sort. Again, the marina doesn't seem to care...And dear Mr. MP...when have I EVER doubted you?

Florida isn't alone in this. Nearly every state has a time limit at which point you have to register your boat. In most states it is 90 days, but in many it is 60 days. I knew a couple who registered in 4 states in just over a year. The cost for most boats on this site is either $83 or $132.50 in Florida. Unless your boat is very new to you, you're not going to face use tax and Florida has no property tax on boats.

Since I live in Florida, I don't have to worry about this, but I gotta tell ya, I'd play stupid because I really don't think any government agency knows what's up with that law.

I don't know how anyone could really tell if you were in Florida longer than the allotted period without extensive effort. We took our boat to Florida in Fall of 2014, stayed two months and then continued to Bahamas. How would anyone official know that we didn't merely anchor somewhere for an extended period, or, park the boat behind a friend's house.

My boat was kept in Florida for more than two years before I bought it. It did not have Florida registration. Sounds to me like an unenforceable law., or at least, one really difficult to enforce.

Gordon

I think it's clear they are unlikely to know and unlikely to do anything. Not as diligent as say Washington state which has apparently a new focus on the issue. I've only ever heard of two people having issues. One was one who overstayed in Charleston, SC. and the wildlife officer just noticed the boat at the marina. Minor ticket. The other was from a state that doesn't register documented boats so no state sticker and no eligibility for exclusion.

Now, here's the question. If FWC does a routine check of you (which I've not yet ever had them do to me), and asks how long your boat has been in Florida, how will you answer?

Answer what you want

BandB said:

I think it's clear they are unlikely to know and unlikely to do anything. Not as diligent as say Washington state which has apparently a new focus on the issue. I've only ever heard of two people having issues. One was one who overstayed in Charleston, SC. and the wildlife officer just noticed the boat at the marina. Minor ticket. The other was from a state that doesn't register documented boats so no state sticker and no eligibility for exclusion.

Now, here's the question. If FWC does a routine check of you (which I've not yet ever had them do to me), and asks how long your boat has been in Florida, how will you answer?

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My thinking is that generally, when the government asks a question, (other than for a security clearance) it is asking because it doesn't know the answer. If it doesn't know the answer, I can say what I want. If the questioner had the answer, he/she need not ask me. I think I could easily answer "a couple weeks", or "a few weeks." And if asked the exact date of entry, could easily claim I don't remember. The FWC would likely go through a lot more trouble and expense trying to verify, or discredit my claim than it could possibly hope to earn. I place the chance of getting caught in the extremely low category.

Gordon

GFC said:

It sounds to me like nobody really knows what the law requires so no cop is going to spend his time cruising marinas looking for boats with out of state stickers.


Much ado about nothing.

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I don't know about FL, but a former coworker of mine quit his job to take a job in Maryland looking for out of state boats so the state could collect sales tax on them. That was his job, what they paid him to do. Full time.

Each state is different. Some collect a one time sales tax, some collect personal property tax every year and some collect both. Each state (and in some states, each county) has different requirements, different rates and different grace periods before you have to comply with their requirements.

My suggestion is to get on the Internet and find an official Florida website that explains what you want to know. You can even print it out in case there's any confusion later.

BandB said:

.......... One was one who overstayed in Charleston, SC. and the wildlife officer just noticed the boat at the marina. ................

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There is a private citizen in Charleston who is upset with big yachts getting away with not paying personal property tax on boats. He cruises around on his own time in his own boat trying to catch violators. He attends city council meetings and complains about the tax collectors not doing their jobs.

He turned in one mega yacht a few years ago and the tax bill turned out to be just under $300K. The boat is gone now.


BTW: The county tax assessors walk my marina docks from time to time checking registrations.

WesK said:

My suggestion is to get on the Internet and find an official Florida website that explains what you want to know. You can even print it out in case there's any confusion later.

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The legal situation is clear with 90 days and then sojourners for up to six months. Otherwise registration required. As you stated every state is different. In most cases, sales tax isn't going to be an issue on a boat you've had an used a good while, but it can be in some cases. Florida doesn't have property taxes on a boat but most states do.

WesK said:

There is a private citizen in Charleston who is upset with big yachts getting away with not paying personal property tax on boats. He cruises around on his own time in his own boat trying to catch violators. He attends city council meetings and complains about the tax collectors not doing their jobs.

He turned in one mega yacht a few years ago and the tax bill turned out to be just under $300K. The boat is gone now.


BTW: The county tax assessors walk my marina docks from time to time checking registrations.

Click to expand...

My advice remains to comply with the law even if the risk of being caught is minimal. It's not difficult, nor expensive and even that remote chance of being caught can be a huge hassle. Plus, and this is just me, I would never lie if asked by FWC or any law enforcement. Then if they said I was required to be registered, I'd act surprised and ask where and how to do that. In most cases, he'd give you a few days to do that.

States with property taxes on boats are much more diligent. Many do a complete sweep of all marinas around December 31.

BandB said:

My advice remains to comply with the law even if the risk of being caught is minimal. It's not difficult, nor expensive and even that remote chance of being caught can be a huge hassle. Plus, and this is just me, I would never lie if asked by FWC or any law enforcement. Then if they said I was required to be registered, I'd act surprised and ask where and how to do that. In most cases, he'd give you a few days to do that.

States with property taxes on boats are much more diligent. Many do a complete sweep of all marinas around December 31.

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Also a good approach. Hopefully the surprise buys you a few days. Typically easier to get forgiveness than permission.

Always best to comply with the law.


Registration and sales/use tax are different animals sometimes and have nothing to do with one another (completely different agencies in most cases). So registration might come due after 90 days or whatever...but a sales tax court (such in one case I know about in NJ)...one night spent in state can envoke the sales/use tax issue.


That all said...if your boat moves every month or so...it would take some pretty good detective work to provide enough probable cause to think you were in violation. So at some point...what kind of manpower is going to be assigned to the case? Sure the simplest thing is to just come ask you...but short of that....it would be difficult to piece together.


I use to fly the division of taxation guy around NJ for years looking for boats and illegal marinas. Even he said it was pretty hit or miss on boats that moved around a lot. Then again.... NJ is 180 days to register which is actually more than the average boating season so their efforts concentrated on boats with corporations in Delaware, etc that may not have been strictly legal. Like I said...taxed and registration aren't always the same.

Thanks for all the replies. Our vessel is documented and has the Maryland stickers indicating we paid the MD 5% tax and the boat is legal in MD. The 2 stickers indicate the boat is documented and have the doc # on the sticker. We do not have to have any registration numbers on the bow of the boat.
So, as I review the info, if we are planning to stay more than 90 consecutive days, we'll consider getting the sojourner license to stay for another month or so and then head back up to the Chesapeake in the spring. Our intention is to travel around, and visit friends and family.

BandB said:

My advice remains to comply with the law even if the risk of being caught is minimal.

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I agree with that. When we were definitely going to be in Florida for 5+ months, I went to the county tax collector's office. They couldn't figure out how to provide a Sojourner's Permit and gave me a letter saying that I came in to get one and they decided I didn't need one. When in Marathon, the Monroe County tax collector's office is walking distance from Boot Key Harbor so I visited them. It was obvious that they didn't know how to make one either and had to get some supervisors involved. They ended up telling me that we didn't need it. You would think they'd know if more people in the mooring field needed/wanted one.

I seriously doubt that FWC knows about that permit.

That said, I do know of people who have gotten $200 tickets from FWC because they came from a state that didn't have state registration on boats. If you have a state registration, they appear to not require a Florida registration. Note that this is independent from documentation. If you come from a state without a state registration, you're supposed to get a Florida registration which triggers sales tax issues.

We eventually moved our registration from Maine to Florida and now registered Red Head in Florida too.

So if you don't have a real state registration, even for a documented boat, that's the only potential for fine that I've seen. There are a few states like Maine who do not require state registration for documented boats and people from those states can get caught because they didn't know.

psneeld said:

Like I said...taxed and registration aren't always the same.

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And taxes bring along penalties and a lot of law enforcement power. The amount of effort involved in compliance is generally directly related to the revenue potentially involved. $100 registration typically catch only in normal course of job. $50,000 tax, worth a lot of effort.

And I do echo your first statement to comply with the law. All the information on every state is available online. Spend the extra $100 on a registration even if you don't think there's risk of getting caught. I'm always a bit dismayed when conversations turn toward "how to evade" laws.

One of the key provisions is how long you have owned your boat. If it is longer than 6 months, Florida will not look to collect a sales or use tax even if you want to move your boat to Florida permanently.
The Sojourner permit is rarely enforced but if you give a hard time to a Fish and Wildlife officer then you may be in trouble. Every time you have a bridge open for you the bridge tender asks for the name of the boat and there are records somewhere of when you went through, claiming you just arrived might not work.

yachtbrokerguy said:

One of the key provisions is how long you have owned your boat. If it is longer than 6 months, Florida will not look to collect a sales or use tax even if you want to move your boat to Florida permanently.

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Nope, that's not true. And trust me, we tried. We hung in Brunswick, GA until we had owned Red Head for 6 months just last month. We had the one document on the State of Florida website showing that 6 month clause. Unfortunately, the actual law reads much differently. We went to Green Cove Springs to register the boat and argued the 6 month rule. A lot of research was done, calls made, etc. The result is that we had to pay the sales tax. The actual Florida statutes made it undeniably clear.

There's a cap in Florida but still, I would have rather spent the money on something else.

Show me how to get the tax money back and I'll give you $1,000.

What is the florida tax rate?