NDZ in Puget Sound?

This is something that's been in the works for some time now and I went about trying to get some current info. I asked via email someone at state level Eco. According to the reply the EPA has given initial approval for the state to make PS a No Discharge Zone due in part to the amount of pump out facilities around now. A comment period came and went and then was extended. At this time its basically in limbo while the state and EPA figure out the best way to go, but I was told there is no timeline for final approval and was also told they had no idea the eventual outcome. Now my opinion is, that its all over but the shouting. PS will become an NDZ in the near future. Towards that end I am not going to install any treatment systems in my boat only to find out 6 months from now that I cannot use them for any discharge without going out to Cape Flattery! So a new holding tank is in the works now as my old one is toast, and I will be legal either way.

Really doesn't matter how much treatment or anything else one has, a good holding tank is a necessity. At some point one will run into a NDZ.

78puget-trawler said:

This is something that's been in the works for some time now and I went about trying to get some current info. I asked via email someone at state level Eco. According to the reply the EPA has given initial approval for the state to make PS a No Discharge Zone due in part to the amount of pump out facilities around now. A comment period came and went and then was extended. At this time its basically in limbo while the state and EPA figure out the best way to go, but I was told there is no timeline for final approval and was also told they had no idea the eventual outcome. Now my opinion is, that its all over but the shouting. PS will become an NDZ in the near future. Towards that end I am not going to install any treatment systems in my boat only to find out 6 months from now that I cannot use them for any discharge without going out to Cape Flattery! So a new holding tank is in the works now as my old one is toast, and I will be legal either way.

Click to expand...

I agree with you. I had been considering a treatment system in the past but I certainly wouldn't now. This is really unfortunate IMO.

BandB said:

Really doesn't matter how much treatment or anything else one has, a good holding tank is a necessity. At some point one will run into a NDZ.

Click to expand...

Not exactly. There are almost no NDZs up here. For those few, a small holding tank such as in the Raritan Hold n Treat would be perfectly adequate. Unfortunately, the WA Dept of Ecology will likely make all Washington inland waters an NDZ. It will not improve water quality in any meaningful way as the number of boats with treatment systems is so small. It actually could be worse for water quality since it will keep boaters from installing treatment systems so they will continue to rely on pump-out locations exclusively. The only problem is when those pump-outs are too far away, inoperable, or the boater is simply too lazy. Then they will discharge raw waste illegally.

The second loser is BC. Without the specter of an NDZ, boaters like Puget and I may have opted to put in treatment systems. When we go to BC we would be discharging treated waste instead of discharging untreated waste.

I am not adverse to sound environmental regulations. However, this suggestion is not based on science and reason but simply a PR move on the part of WA Dept of Ecology.

I could be completely off base on my prediction but either way I still need a new holding tank. And I agree this is just typical feel good baloney for the most part, and as long as Victoria BC continues to pump millions of gals of raw sewage into the Straits every day, what difference as HRC might say, does it make?

dhays said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BandB
Really doesn't matter how much treatment or anything else one has, a good holding tank is a necessity. At some point one will run into a NDZ.

Not exactly. There are almost no NDZs up here. For those few, a small holding tank such as in the Raritan Hold n Treat would be perfectly adequate. Unfortunately, the WA Dept of Ecology will likely make all Washington inland waters an NDZ.
.

Click to expand...

I think you just made my point. Almost no NDZ's still means there are some and your illustration indicates there will be more. Now, some places may monitor more carefully than others, but in many NDZ's if you don't have a holding tank, you better have everything you do have disabled. We know which way things are trending, for right or wrong being irrelevant and once you leave your normal boating area, then it gets more challenging.

The states with bans on all waters are an odd combination: Massachusetts, Michigan, New Mexico, and Vermont.

Here's a link to the current list:

https://www.epa.gov/vessels-marinas-and-ports/no-discharge-zones-ndzs-state#ma

BandB said:

I think you just made my point.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I guess I did. However, despite the ranting, I was trying to comment on the "good holding tank" part of your original post. I consider a "good" holding tank to be at least 40 gallons and be well vented.

In our area at this moment, a Raritan Hold n Treat with its incorporated 15 gal holding tank would be perfectly adequate unless you decided to camp out for a long period in one of the few very small NDZs that do exist. A 15 gal tank is pretty puny but would be just fine. That Hold n Treat system is also something that could be shoehorned into most boats with marine heads.

As you know, there is a lot of water from Olympia to Alaska where such a system would work great. I seriously doubt that I will ever venture out of this area and there are very few boaters up here that do.

Your point though is well taken, particularly for those whose cruising grounds cross a lot of jurisdictions.

Since Canada is pumping raw sewage from its cities into upper Puget Sound, having NDZ in lower PS seems kinda silly.

It does indeed. Not sure if its more than Vic but Vic for sure, and its lots.

There are a lot of silly laws on the books. Sometimes we just have to live with them.

Other TF threads on this subject:


http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/more-info-ndz-puget-sound-29138.html


http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s31/puget-sound-ndz-time-frame-28788.html

It's probably going to be more than sewage. All grey water in time. That's what happened in other places.
Waters are all of San Juans to Dungeness Inlet lighthouse, Admiralty Inlet and waters inland.
I don't see why USCG approved treatment systems are being made illegal.

BandB said:

There are a lot of silly laws on the books. Sometimes we just have to live with them.

Click to expand...

Or not...
when victoria cares.. so will I
Hollywood

hollywood8118 said:

Or not...
when victoria cares.. so will I
Hollywood

Click to expand...

hollywood8118 said:

Or not...
when victoria cares.. so will I
Hollywood

Click to expand...

How much will the ticket have to be to make you care?

Recreational Boats have little to no impact on PS. Control the discharge of all cities around PS, then come to us.......Canada is doing right and as of today has no impact...

BandB said:

How much will the ticket have to be to make you care?

Click to expand...

A lot more than my monthly moorage bill.

Keep in mind that the only boaters affected are those that either have, or contemplated, a marine treatment system. Those if us without treatment systems will not be affected.

dhays said:

Keep in mind that the only boaters affected are those that either have, or contemplated, a marine treatment system. Those if us without treatment systems will not be affected.

Click to expand...

Nor Canadians. Just pump it overboard and sent down to Seattle and PS.....Just say'n

Not exactly Puget Sound, but last Sunday a power outage caused raw sewage to be pumped into Lake Washington for 20 minutes. I wonder how many holding tanks that equals?

porman said:

Not exactly Puget Sound, but last Sunday a power outage caused raw sewage to be pumped into Lake Washington for 20 minutes. I wonder how many holding tanks that equals?

Click to expand...

Not only power outages but anytime we have some major rain events, there are raw sewage overspills into Puget Sound from the large municipal systems. Not to mention all the agricultural land that borders the rivers that feed the sound sending nutrients and manure into the Sound or all the failing septic systems that line Puget Sound.

Again, I have no problem with the prohibition of dumping raw sewage overboard, but it is silly to prohibit the discharge of treated boat waste.

dhays said:

Again, I have no problem with the prohibition of dumping raw sewage overboard, but it is silly to prohibit the discharge of treated boat waste.

Click to expand...

While I tend to agree, the reason why they do so is simple. From outside the boat, they can only observe that waste is being dumped. can't tell whether it's treated or untreated. So, they make it all illegal. I do feel it's unfair to those of us who have invested in treatment systems.

Someone mentioned tickets. How on earth can an authority determine that one has pumped sewage into the water? Most boats have macerators (my boat has two) so after the boat has advanced through the water even the length of the boat how would anyone know? I just "do it" way out in the middle somewhere. Did the same in Alaska too.

Nomad Willy said:

Someone mentioned tickets. How on earth can an authority determine that one has pumped sewage into the water? Most boats have macerators (my boat has two) so after the boat has advanced through the water even the length of the boat how would anyone know? I just "do it" way out in the middle somewhere. Did the same in Alaska too.

Click to expand...

Hence this is only a feel good law for the waco environmental activist terrorist.

Update from RBAW. See second page.... Wish I could have attended the Jan. 5th meeting....


http://www.rbaw.org/LegislativeIssues/2016/DougLevyRpt_Dec2016.pdf

BandB said:

While I tend to agree, the reason why they do so is simple. From outside the boat, they can only observe that waste is being dumped. can't tell whether it's treated or untreated. So, they make it all illegal. I do feel it's unfair to those of us who have invested in treatment systems.

Click to expand...

Not really, most of the time you cant tell when my electroscan is pumping overboard.


It is insanely unfair throughout the whole US.


A classic example of making good, honest citizens trying to make things better, criminals.

UP date From RBAW

Welcome to RBAW! Recreational Boating Association of Washington -Voice of Northwest Boating


Update on No Discharge Zone for ALL of Puget Sound
EPA did indeed “publish” – in the Federal Register , February 21 - their declaration that there are sufficient pump-out facilities, which gives the “green-light” for Washington’s Dept of Ecology to establish an all-Puget Sound NDZ. We had hoped that such declaration by EPA would fall under the “60-day” ruling that end-of-term regulatory decisions would be reviewed by the US Congress under the "Congressional Review Act" but apparently this decision was viewed more as an "adjudicative decision", thus not subject to such review. It appears that the EPA decided to count “pumper trucks” coming to docks to pump-out the commercial craft, to declare that there WERE “sufficient” commercial pump-outs… a very expensive process, not “proven” to be executable! There still is more effort from the Commercial Vessels impacted to block this but once published it’s really difficult to roll it back. There may be an opportunity for a “Request for Reconsideration” letter – we’ll add our support and signature where/when appropriate.
Failing THAT “stop”, we then must work with DoE to have a “rational” roll-out – first indications are that this may have a lengthy roll-out, maybe as much as five years until fully implemented. RBAW officers will keep abreast of this roll-out especially to be SURE there is adequate time for retrofitting recreational vessels that do not have holding tanks but only type I treatment plants aboard. We certainly hope that DoE staff is rather more “open” at THIS point in their administrative rule-making process to hearing – and actually incorporating – the vessel-owner’s concerns about a feasible and fair roll-out.
There was some discussion to push US Congress to re-define the level of treatment that Type I and Type II onboard treatment plants must meet, as the original limits have now been far exceeded by newer technology – in fact, back in 2002, there was a congressional bill (the “Saxton Bill”) that would have tightened up Type I effluent from 1000 to 10 Fcu/100ml, which the manufacturers felt was already achievable (100 times better than law mandates now!). This effluent right out the discharge-pipe from your vessel, is BETTER than the quality standards that the State requires at swimming beaches and over shellfish beds, even before dispersion and dilution is factored in! If such “tightening” is established, maybe there will be no further “push” for NDZ’s – but not sure if it could retroactively affect our Puget Sound situation…. Similarly, there is hope that the “Clean Water Act” could be modified to accept NDZ’s only when a scientific/technical demonstration of “need” is established. Remember, the current Act has no such “scientific” justification and that’s how DoE rammed through their “declaration of need” despite our Marine Alliance scientific studies debunking their fallacious flow-modeling of treated effluent’s impact. Not sure if there still exists energy to proceed along these longer-range avenues, if indeed the battle with EPA has been lost… will keep you advised.

A little note about the DoE's claim of sufficient pump out facilities. We were in Olympia last weekend and went to Percival Landing to pump out (in the pouring rain). Tied to the dock, looked at the pump-out, OUT OF ORDER. Untied,went around the corner to Swantown. Looking for the pump-out, not where it used to be. Someone comes out and says they are in the process of moving it, not available right now. We contacted some friends at the Olympia Yacht Club. They said the marina on the West side of Budd Inlet has a pump-out, but not enough room for our 43ft boat to get to it. So our choices now are Jarrell Cove, Penrose Point, Narrows Marina. All hours away. We ended up using shore facilities for the weekend (in the pouring rain). Thank you Dept. of Ecology.

Well somebody in WA State keeps voting for those who regulate things like NDZ, pass marijuana laws, implement egregious boat taxes and support sanctuary cities. Don't have an answer but the majority has unfortunately ruled.

But for a few places, WA has been overcome with a serious disease called libtardism, witness two of the most idiotic US Senators in govt, Murray and Cantwell. Our gov., Jay Inslee is about as smart as a sack full of rocks, and most of the state govt is loony toons, but for a few good folks. Seattle is San Fransicko north.

78puget-trawler said:

Seattle is San Fransicko north

Click to expand...

You got that right. I just read in the paper that Seattle is going to have a measure on the ballot for their next election to spend $275 MILLION over the next five years to take care of the homeless in Seattle.

Think about that for a moment---According to Wikipedia...
"There are at least 2,942 people in Seattle each night who are unsheltered."

So lets take that number and divide it into the $275,000,000 and that comes out to a whopping $93,475 over the five year period. What the fugg are they going to do, build them each a condo somewhere?

This is how nuts the libtards in Seattle think. Why not take that $275,000,000 and do something worthwhile with half of it, like use it to improve schools or something.

Fuggin idiots!