Propane tank - best location?

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What many surveyors, and others miss, is that each ABYC standard as an effectivity date. For instance: "A-1 MARINE LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS (LPG) SYSTEMS
Based on ABYC's assessment of the existing technology, and the problems associated with achieving the goals of this standard, ABYC recommends compliance with this standard for all systems and associated equipment manufactured and/or installed after July 31, 2014."

ABYC knows that it is impossible/impractical to bring old boats up to new standards. In certain systems, such as propane systems an insurance surveyor may recommend that the system be brought up to the latest standard. That is a reasonable request on most boats. But to bring the Electrical system on a 1980 Chris Craft up to the 2016 standards is impossible. To bring a 1990 diesel fuel tank label up to the 2016 standard is impossible.

Any experienced surveyor understands that the boat is built to the standards in effect at the time it was built. The USCG regulations also say the same thing. Boats must be in compliance with the regulations on the date they were built. There are a lot of 1960's outboard runabouts still gonig strong, but they do not have the built in flotation required by current law.

Think of it this way. When building codes change do we go back and change every existing house? No. When auto safety standards change do we go back and change every existing automobile? No.
 
I would like to thank you all for your posts on this subject. Here are my conclusions and plan as of now:
1. I will not install my propane tank on the swim step as like it was mentioned it is a target for anything that could be hit.
2. I will install my tank on the flybridge. I have some space on the port side under my flybridge dashboard, just need to check for the available height. If height permit I will fit a vapor tight locker with the tank inside and I will be able to install a drain vent that will drain on the forward-port side. There is no opening window below and the nearest opening is at more than 40 inches so I should be good. Any leak should drain directly overboard. Moreover this will reduce the hose length as the appliance on the flybridge will be at around 60 inches from the tank and the galley is right under the flybridge.
3. I will install a propane detector in the locker as well as in the galley (and for good measure I think that I will add another in the bilge under the galley :) ).
4. I will use propane specific hose for connection with flare fitting.
5. Each hose will go direct from tank to appliance.
6. Each hose will be connected to its own solenoid on the tank.
7. I will put a contactor with light indicator in the vicinity of each of the appliance, so on my lower helm dashboard for the galley and on the flybridge dashboard for the outside appliances.

I guess this looks like a plan :)

Thank you again!
 
tadhana said:
What many surveyors, and others miss, is that each ABYC standard as an effectivity date. For instance: "A-1 MARINE LIQUEFIED PETROLEUM GAS (LPG) SYSTEMS
Based on ABYC's assessment of the existing technology, and the problems associated with achieving the goals of this standard, ABYC recommends compliance with this standard for all systems and associated equipment manufactured and/or installed after July 31, 2014."

ABYC knows that it is impossible/impractical to bring old boats up to new standards. In certain systems, such as propane systems an insurance surveyor may recommend that the system be brought up to the latest standard. That is a reasonable request on most boats. But to bring the Electrical system on a 1980 Chris Craft up to the 2016 standards is impossible. To bring a 1990 diesel fuel tank label up to the 2016 standard is impossible.

Any experienced surveyor understands that the boat is built to the standards in effect at the time it was built. The USCG regulations also say the same thing. Boats must be in compliance with the regulations on the date they were built. There are a lot of 1960's outboard runabouts still gonig strong, but they do not have the built in flotation required by current law.

Think of it this way. When building codes change do we go back and change every existing house? No. When auto safety standards change do we go back and change every existing automobile? No.
Click to expand...

Thank you for these two great posts showing the "qualifiers" that aren't often quoted with the "suggestions" that are often quoted line by line. :thumb:

Unfortunately the misunderstandings by some surveyors and insurance companies plague boat owners that aren't as informed as many here.

So despite some who think this forum never changes peoples opinions or outlooks....I disagree, as it has refreshed my outside view of ABYC. But I suppose we will always be stuck with such people. ...:D
 
Back to the OP question...

I think a bridge mounted tank is fine as long as the drain is 20" away from a window. I don't think there would be a question then on a survey.

My own tank is located in a bridge locker that has a side door, not a top opening. The door is over 20" away from any opening into the boat. The drain is on the outer side of the boat, opposite of the locker door and is also over 20" from any opening door or window. While the surveyor flagged my boat for failing the lpg pressure test, that was the only thing mentioned regarding the propane system.
 
Dave, what do you mean by failing the lpg pressure test?
By the way I like your boat very much :)
 
Lou_tribal said:
Dave, what do you mean by failing the lpg pressure test?
By the way I like your boat very much :)
Click to expand...

Thanks Lou,

The surveyor opens the propane bottle, powers up the lpg solenoid, and checks the pressure gauge at the tank. 3 minutes later check the pressure again. The pressure should not have dropped at all.

In my case, the pressure dropped some. There was a fitting that was a bit loose at the tank and that seemed to correct the problem, which made the insurance company happy. At some point I think I still want to pull the stove and check the connections behind it, but I am in no hurry.
 
RT Firefly said:
Greetings,
Mr. tt. I think the inference is by default in that the "surveyor" must be "certified". I suspect part of a "surveyor's" certification is at least being aware of AYBC suggestions.
IMO there is "certified" and certifiable. Sometimes, one and the same. I'm sure we all have a story, of some sort, regarding insurance surveys and the lunacy that has ensued.
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Certified by whom? ABYC, state by state?
 
psneeld said:
I might have a touch of that mentality but the reality is that I disagree that a boating guideline like some ABYC "suggestions" is one size fits all. Not necessarily that the ABYC suggestions are bureaucratic or unnecessary.

Any more than safety equipment isn't one size "list of required equipment" fits all vessels.

And having never this paragraph before.....

"As far as practicable, these standards and technical information reports are stated in terms of performance and are not intended to preclude attainment of desired results by other means. These standards are of general applicability, and there may be instances in which the particular use, configuration, or other characteristics of a specific boat, or classes of boats, may result in special requirements differing from the generally applicable standards........The standards and technical information reports are intended to achieve a specified level of performance, and it may be desirable and appropriate to attain that goal by a variety of means.


This is a good thing...It will soften my rants somewhat....and I can attach this to every insurance compliance letter that has some reference to a standard for an old boat where meeting the standard or the "interpreted" standard may actually be more unsafe or equal.

And the answer is both my recent surveys referenced ABYC recommendations and so have the others I have seen lately...

Here is one from my last survey that makes NO SENSE to me at all considering the tank was already installed and over 20 years old. How the heck could I comply with this unless I use the "catch all" reasonable paragraph I posted above? Thus my dislike for others to "interpret" a todays best practice on an old boat. A better recommendation would be to replace if unable to determine current serviceability of the tank by any tank certification process.

Here is the surveyor's recommentdation from the survey ....
"Comply with ABYC standards regarding manufacturing label​
on fuel tanks."


The insurance company then often just "mark, bound, copy" these surveyor recommendations and makes insurance contingent on fixing the items cited.
Click to expand...

I think the issue here, and I completely agree, is any notion that all boats of all ages should meet all standards. That's just silly, but seems to be the largest complaint when ABYC is used in the same sentence. I think this is a problem with surveyors and insurance companies, not ABYC. The guidelines need to be applied in the context of the boat. I can certainly understand an insurance company wanting to see really dangerous things brought up to snuff before insuring, but expecting the whole boat to be brought into compliance is just ridiculous.
 
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There is no official certification. If you want to call yourself a surveyor, you are one. But there are two professional organizations. They certify their own members National Association of MArine Surveyors( NAMS) And the Society of Accredited MArine Surveyors (SAMS). It is hard to be successfull in surveying if you do not belong to one or both groups. Most insurance companies will only use someone who is at least a member of one of those two groups.
 
twistedtree said:
I think the issue here, and I completely agree, is any notion that all boats of all ages should meet all standards. That's just silly, but seems to be the largest complaint when ABYC is used in the same sentence. I think this is a problem with surveyors and insurance companies, not ABYC. The guidelines need to be applied in the context of the boat. I can certainly understand an insurance company wanting to see really dangerous things brought up to snuff before insuring, but expecting the whole boat to be brought into compliance is just ridiculous.
Click to expand...

Agreed...but maybe a little emphasis should be beaten into the boating industry BY ABYC, just where the extent of their suggestions really reach.

Now that the USCG is writing ABYC stuff into the US Code....and probably not including all the pertinent language, the actual writing of the ABYC recommendations might be worded such that there would be less confusion by those suggesting when and where they are followed.

Maybe they are...but as often as they are slung around....it is a shame that you have to pay to read them. Maybe it is time they be available online or something if they can impact the general public like they do.
 
dhays said:
..

The surveyor opens the propane bottle, powers up the lpg solenoid, and checks the pressure gauge at the tank. 3 minutes later check the pressure again. The pressure should not have dropped at all.

In my case, the pressure dropped some. There was a fitting that was a bit loose at the tank and that seemed to correct the problem, which made the insurance company happy. At some point I think I still want to pull the stove and check the connections behind it, but I am in no hurry.
Click to expand...
With my older stove, the gas guy figured there were leaks at the valve controls for the burners, not economically fixable. Worth checking. I bought a new stove with flame failure cutoffs, that saved installing a detector.
 
BruceK said:
With my older stove, the gas guy figured there were leaks at the valve controls for the burners, not economically fixable. Worth checking. I bought a new stove with flame failure cutoffs, that saved installing a detector.
Click to expand...

I am fortunate that I have a detector. It has actually gone off a couple of times, in both cases when the office pilot light went out. The detector sounds an alarm and closes the lpg solenoid.

I am sure we still do have a leak somewhere since if we are away from the boat for more than a few days, then it takes a long time to light the stove as the gas lines are empty. I need to track it down at some point.
 
Now that the USCG is writing ABYC stuff into the US Code....and probably not including all the pertinent language, the actual writing of the ABYC recommendations might be worded such that there would be less confusion by those suggesting when and where they are followed.



The USCG is not writing any ABYC "Stuff" into code. The USCG is happy to work with and along side of ABYC to improve boating safety. The USCG recognizes that times and technology change. It is much more efficient to manage this by standard than by law.
A rough analogy is that by law cars must have brakes. Industry standards determine how to build the brakes.
 
Maybe be they are...but as often as they are slung around....it is a shame that you have to pay to read them. Maybe it is time they be available online or something if they can impact the general public like they do.[/QUOTE]


The ABYC standards (or any industry standards) do not read like a book. Standards discuss performance, not workmanship. Standards are written for the industry and often a standard requires a level of technical knowledge beyond what the average boater can manage. They are very difficult to sit down and read. Writers like Nigel Calder have taken the time to learn the standards and then write a book explaining the standards and on how to work on your boat and follow the standards. Often one boat project will touch on several standards. Technical writers can pull the content from several interrelated standards and present it in a logical order.
 
tadhana said:
The ABYC standards (or any industry standards) do not read like a book. Standards discuss performance, not workmanship. Standards are written for the industry and often a standard requires a level of technical knowledge beyond what the average boater can manage. They are very difficult to sit down and read. Writers like Nigel Calder have taken the time to learn the standards and then write a book explaining the standards and on how to work on your boat and follow the standards. Often one boat project will touch on several standards. Technical writers can pull the content from several interrelated standards and present it in a logical order.
Click to expand...

Your posts on this are extremely enlightening. Thank you!
 
IMG_1484232536.385507.jpg

My propane locker is under the port side walk around deck, accessed by a hatch from above. It has a water drain at the bottom of the locker that goes directly overboard, so I guess that's how a propane leak would escape as well.
 
Maybe I was a little unclear...but this is what I meant by ABYC stuff showing up in the CFRs....it isn't the only standard cited...but it is in there.


46 CFR 184.240 - Gas systems.
"
§ 184.240 Gas systems.
Cooking systems using liquefied petroleum gas (LPG) and compressed natural gas (CNG) must meet the following requirements:
(a) The design, installation and testing of each LPG system must meet ABYC A-1, “Marine Liquefied Petroleum Gas (LPG) Systems,” Chapter 6 of NFPA 302, or other standard specified by the Commandant.
(b) The design, installation and testing of each CNG system must meet ABYC A-22, “Marine Compressed Natural Gas (CNG) Systems,” Chapter 6 of NFPA 302, or other standard specified .....snip"


Granted this is out of a passenger vessel section....but my whole point was that some ABYC recommendations are now written into law on some level.


If it is that easy for the USCG to refer to some standards, no telling where it might go having worked for the USCG, not the ABYC.

Don't get me wrong as some have, I think the pure safety stuff is important...and as you pointed out...things aren't as black and white as a few lines out of a standard...and for that I thank you for the information.
 
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cardude01 said:
View attachment 60355

My propane locker is under the port side walk around deck, accessed by a hatch from above. It has a water drain at the bottom of the locker that goes directly overboard, so I guess that's how a propane leak would escape as well.
Click to expand...

A fairly standard sailboat installation. Hard to imagine anything safer if there is a leak in the vicinity of the tanks.
 
Granted this is out of a passenger vessel section....but my whole point was that some ABYC recommendations are now written into law on some level.


As you point out, this is for the commercial vessel law. it does not apply to recreational vessels. There are a lot of laws that apply to commercial passenger carrying vessels that are not required by law on recreational vessels. This particular ABYC reference has been on the USCG Inspected vessel regulations books for a long time, 20 or 30 years.

As far as recreational boats go the USCG seems content to work with ABYC.
 
koliver said:
Mark:

I note that your propane locker is mounted above two opening windows. That is exactly what should be avoided.
Click to expand...

Those windows are only open when they are opened. Normally cruise with nothing opened, one pilothouse door open, or two pilothouse doors opened, or rear saloon door also opened, and in the worse hot-weather scenario, the central pilothouse window opened.

 
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I may have missed it but where can one get a reasonably priced cube shaped top loading locker made for a single 20# bottle? I need one NOW.

Most of the ones I can find online have at least one rounded side and are big bucks.
 
If you're a handy type you can have one this afternoon. A circular saw, tape measure Starboard and 5200 is all it takes. Drill a hole down low and epoxy a 1/2" hose barb fitting to accommodate the drain hose.
 
CPseudonym said:
If you're a handy type you can have one this afternoon. A circular saw, tape measure Starboard and 5200 is all it takes. Drill a hole down low and epoxy a 1/2" hose barb fitting to accommodate the drain hose.
Click to expand...



Will 5200 stick to starboard?
 
seasalt007 said:
I may have missed it but where can one get a reasonably priced cube shaped top loading locker made for a single 20# bottle? I need one NOW.

Most of the ones I can find online have at least one rounded side and are big bucks.
Click to expand...

I will do mine myself in FB looking at the price they sell this.
 
tadhana said:
3 M 5200 does not adhere well to Starboard. Starboard is a polyethylene product. There are some specialty glues that will work. See Jamestown distributors https://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/document.do?docId=211

Also apparently a Lord adhesive does adhere to polyethylene . LORD[emoji768] 7542 Urethane Adhesive | LORD Corp
Click to expand...



Thank you for this.

Dave I honestly haven't a clue but ASSumed satans glue stuck to everything. I did know that someone would surely correct me and tadhana delivered the goods :thumb:
 
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