Propane tank - best location?

Propane tank - best onboard location?

Hello,

Context:
Currently my BBQ is on the flybridge and using disposable propane tank. My galley cooktop also use propane disposable tank. Next spring I plan as an improvement to install a cooktop on the flybridge along with the BBQ and also propane tank from which to run line to the galley and flybridge in order to get rid of disposable tank.

My plan:
I have read all recommendations/standards from ABYC and equivalent from transport canada in order to make the modification properly.
I will run two separate lines from the tank to the galley for one and flybridge for the other through the boat in the double wall. Each line will come from its own solenoid on the tank so will be independant. The lines will be made of standard propane specific hose with no connection between the tank and the appliance.

Initially I planned to put the tank in a locker on the flybridge but based on standards and recommandation I will not be able as it will be difficult to find a place where any potential leak will not be able to flow onto a window or opening to the inside.

So I plan to store the tank in a locker on the swim platform at stern as this will allow a potential leak to flow directly overboard and allow me to run the line straight through the boat double wall.

Do you see any issue or potential danger to do so?
Where is located the tank on your boat?

My main concern is that the swim platform is washed while under way so the locker will get wet. My solution is to put the tank on a support in the locker so it stays higher then the water that may come in by the event at the bottom of the locker.
If anyone has any advice or recommendation I will be pleased to read it.

Thank you for any help!

I don't see a problem with the usual 20lb propane bottle mounted and connected properly on the flybridge. Plenty of ventilation, presuming the flybridge and locker are open. Hard to imagine enough gas making it down into an open window or door.

Mounting the bottle in a vented enclosure on or above the swim platform shouldn't be a problem, if it's legal, until you back into a piling and knock it loose. You don't own the tank; you trade it in for a refill and the tank owner is responsible for its maintenance and certification. Thus there's really no concern for corrosion of the tank; I'd wonder about the pressure valve and hoses you're responsible for in a wetted enclosure.

Ours is the typical TT installation, in the louvered flybridge cabinetwork.

My concern with putting in on the flybridge is that ABYC states that the tank should be stored in an enclosure which allow a leak to directly discharge overboard. However I have windows on port and starboard side of the flybridge and also a hatch door aft from it. But I admit I may be taking these a bit too much to the letter. This is exactly why I wondering what you people are doing.
My concern with the swim plaform was indeed that it is a "first hit" place in case of handling incident.

Lou_tribal said:

My concern with putting in on the flybridge is that ABYC states that the tank should be stored in an enclosure which allow a leak to directly discharge overboard. However I have windows on port and starboard side of the flybridge and also a hatch door aft from it. But I admit I may be taking these a bit too much to the letter. This is exactly why I wondering what you people are doing.
My concern with the swim plaform was indeed that it is a "first hit" place in case of handling incident.

Click to expand...

This is only own uninformed opinion....

I look at propane as behaving much like a liquid. It will flow downhill. In a locker, you need a drain. If water will drain overboard, so will propane. If you put water in the locker on the flybridge and it would drain into an open window, then probably not a good spot for propane. If the water wouldn't drain into the window, then air wouldn't worry about it.

One suggestion would be to install in the galley a combination gas detector solenoid switch.

Too bad you presumably don't have a pretend smoke stack.

DHeckrotte said:

I don't see a problem with the usual 20lb propane bottle mounted and connected properly on the flybridge. Plenty of ventilation, presuming the flybridge and locker are open. Hard to imagine enough gas making it down into an open window or door.

Mounting the bottle in a vented enclosure on or above the swim platform shouldn't be a problem, if it's legal, until you back into a piling and knock it loose. You don't o5wn the tank; you trade it in for a refill and the tank owner is responsible for its maintenance and certification. Thus there's really no concern for corrosion of the tank; I'd wonder about the pressure valve and hoses you're responsible for in a wetted enclosure.

Ours is the typical TT installation, in the louvered flybridge cabinetwork.

Click to expand...

Exactly! This explanation is complete. We have a duel 20# setup under the fly bridge compartment vented to the outside. Were we to have a similar bar-b-q mounted as the OP the line run would be simple vs: running one from the swim step. Too, that swim step tank would need to be aluminum that close to salt water (assuming we are talking being on salt water)

Al-Ketchikan

The catch phrase I am using using is xx inches from any hull opening.

I think it's 20 something, so my flybridge mounted tank is 20 something from any windows below.

Similar concept to Marks in his Coots fake smokestack.

If his is legal, so is mine I figure.

markpierce said:

Too bad you presumably don't have a pretend smoke stack.

Click to expand...

Mark:

I note that your propane locker is mounted above two opening windows. That is exactly what should be avoided.

If I read it right, the ABYC states that the tank should be stored in a locker having a leak exhaust at the bottom of the locker that discharge overboard and the locker should open only from the top.

Just to avoid any misunderstanding, I am not saying anybody made something wrong just try to get as much info as possible to make it right

dhays said:

I look at propane as behaving much like a liquid.

Click to expand...

Well, it behaves like something heavier than air anyway

Am curious folks thoughts on propane detectors... I see them in cabins... should they not be in the bilge? (or both?)

They should be located at the lowest point were propane flow, so I would say near the galley floor and in the bilge.
I plan to put two of them, on in the galley and one in a forward bilge just below the galley, just in case.

Propane Sensor/Switch

If you want two sensors and a switch as well, take a look at this one:

CruzPro GD25 LPG gas vapor detector and gasoline / petrol monitor and alarm sports variable sensitivity, controls lpg solenoid and bilge blower

It also switches off the solenoid after sixty minutes, which is a good thing. I have one and it works quite well.

These are available in the U.S. from Downwind marine

CruzPro GD20 Gas Vapor Detector with Controller - Detectors & Controls - Galley, Stoves & Barbeques - Downwind Marine

ABYC A-1 Propane Systems for boats.
1.8.6
Locker vent openings shall be located at least 20 inches (508 mm) from any hull opening to the boat interior.

There are hundreds or thousands of boats out there with LPG lockers on the bridge. To my knowledge they all pass survey. I have not heard of a surveyor who objected.

tadhana said:

ABYC A-1 Propane Systems for boats.
1.8.6
Locker vent openings shall be located at least 20 inches (508 mm) from any hull opening to the boat interior.

There are hundreds or thousands of boats out there with LPG lockers on the bridge. To my knowledge they all pass survey. I have not heard of a surveyor who objected.

Click to expand...

This! Don't sweat it. Must be the doldrums of winter...

tadhana said:

ABYC A-1 Propane Systems for boats.
1.8.6
Locker vent openings shall be located at least 20 inches (508 mm) from any hull opening to the boat interior.

There are hundreds or thousands of boats out there with LPG lockers on the bridge. To my knowledge they all pass survey. I have not heard of a surveyor who objected.

Click to expand...

At least one surveyor I know of suggested that "hull opening" did not include superstructure....only the hull.

I disagree .... I would rather have a bit of propane come through an open window 20 inches from the tank...than from a drain that concentrates it only 20 inches from an engine room air intake grate leading directly to the bilge.

If it IS true that ABYC meant hull only was allowed the 20 inch separation...then that is just one more bone I have to pick with their reasoning.

One thing I hardly understand is the requirement to have the locker opening only from the top. While I understand that opening from the top will not allow any propane to exit the locker, at the same time it looks a bit illogic to me as if the locker is vented as required it won't ever contain any propane.
Does any expert have another view on this?

Lou_tribal said:

One thing I hardly understand is the requirement to have the locker opening only from the top. While I understand that opening from the top will not allow any propane to exit the locker, at the same time it looks a bit illogic to me as if the locker is vented as required it won't ever contain any propane.
Does any expert have another view on this?

Click to expand...

Just trying to make it more idiot proof I would guess. That way of thinking would fit with many of their requirements.

Lack of maintenance or attention to detail might allow it to leak propane to places the drain would normally take it away from.

The ABYC standards are intended to be performance standardss. They are not requirements. Here is a quote with my emphasis added.

"As far as practicable, these standards and technical information reports are stated in terms of performance and are not intended to preclude attainment of desired results by other means. These standards are of general applicability, and there may be instances in which the particular use, configuration, or other characteristics of a specific boat, or classes of boats, may result in special requirements differing from the generally applicable standards........The standards and technical information reports are intended to achieve a specified level of performance, and it may be desirable and appropriate to attain that goal by a variety of means.



I was the Technical VP of ABYC for years.

tadhana said:

The ABYC standards are intended to be performance standardss. They are not requirements. Here is a quote with my emphasis added.

"As far as practicable, these standards and technical information reports are stated in terms of performance and are not intended to preclude attainment of desired results by other means. These standards are of general applicability, and there may be instances in which the particular use, configuration, or other characteristics of a specific boat, or classes of boats, may result in special requirements differing from the generally applicable standards........The standards and technical information reports are intended to achieve a specified level of performance, and it may be desirable and appropriate to attain that goal by a variety of means.



I was the Technical VP of ABYC for years.

Click to expand...

Thank you for this clarification!

Unfortunately if not in black and white by ABYC, the interpretation by Surveyors and their reports by Insurance companies can be subject to whims or unsubstantiated beliefs.


Such as the propane mounting on Mark's Coot or any flybridge mounting that is not in the approved locker description with a drain running all the way down past the gunnel.


Following a rigid interpretation can make abiding by your insurance company directions to correct "deficiencies"... difficult at best.

Indeed this is what is worrying me. I would not like to do an install that my insurance will say is not correct forcing me to redo it differently. I am in favor of the "do it once but do it right" concept

I would NOT put it on the swim step. In my experience, anything on a swim step is sacrificial as soon as you hit any kind of water. I expect you spend most time in the river systems? But the St Lawrence and Lake Ontario can easily generate condition that I could take out a swim step mounted propane locker. If that happens, then you could be creating a much, much bigger danger.

I'd get a locker made specifically for propane, and come up with the best location possible. And I think it's OK to run a drain hose to direct where any leaking propane goes. Just keep the hose size large, and run it on the exterior of the boat.

As the Technical VP of ABYC i attended every technical meeting and prepared the meeting minutes and the updated standards. I oversaw committee actions and helped find applicable statistics and engineering solutions. Compliance with ABYC does NOT require a drain running down past the gunwale. This ABYC committee is made up of boat builders, propane appliance builders, boatyards, surveyors, the USCG, boat owners, Boat US and several insurance companies. In the opinion of the committee and with approval of the ABYC Technical Board, the 20" rule was deemed adequate. The reasoning for this requirement built on the requirement for gasoline fuel tank vents which must not be closer than 15" from any opening into the hull.

I can see all that as reasonable.....but it has been interpreted differently by one surveyor at one time and that didn't seem reasonable to me.


If you were the unlucky recipient of a letter from your insurance company requesting that you fix it to the surveyors satisfaction....that would have been a big problem.


Unfortunately it is very difficult to wave that piece of ABYC literature in anyone's face describing "reasonableness" when your survey has some 2 sentence excerpt from ABYC guidelines printed out that looks so nice and official.

kev_rm said:

Am curious folks thoughts on propane detectors... I see them in cabins... should they not be in the bilge? (or both?)

Click to expand...

I just came to like them the other day, it turns out. The pressure gauge on my regulator was broken so I replaced it. This entailed removal of a bunch of fittings and replacement of a few because they had been assembled with some form of loc-tite or permatex that would not let go, one joint in particular.

Anyway, I put it all back together with Rectorseal #5 and turned the gas back on, and about 5 minutes later our alarm went off indicating gas in the locker. Making a long story short, some residual hard sealant had prevented one of the joints from sealing and I had a leak. Without the detector I wouldn't have know.

Now, before anyone scolds me, I'll do it myself. Yes, I should have hit the joints with soapy water to leak test after making the repair, and I didn't. I usually do, but didn't this time. There's a good lesson there as well.

As for locations, one of my detectors is in the bottom of the propane locker. That's where 90% of the joints and devices are located, and the highest probability location for a leak. The second is under my cook top somewhere since that's the only indoor gas appliance. I'm actually not sure exactly where it's located, and never will unless I need to tear out the cook top or oven at some point.

tadhana said:

Compliance with ABYC does NOT require a drain running down past the gunwale.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure if this was in response to my suggestion of a drain hose, but if it was....

I didn't mean to suggest the drain needed to go down past the gunwale. Just that by using a drain hose, the owner might be able to direct the discharge to more easily comply with the 20" rule.

As a non-professional my experience with all this is limited, but I have always found the ABYC guidelines to be well reasoned, objective guidelines that address real safety risks. Not bureaucratic regs for the sake of regs.

Unfortunately that doesn't stop people like psneed described from treating that as such, and playing the role of un-thinking bureaucratic enforcer. But I suppose we will always be stuck with such people.

Greetings,
"...one of my detectors is in the bottom of the propane locker." That is the location of our only detector as well, for the reasons given.
Regarding AYBC "standards"...I'm fine with them until, as Mr. ps. notes, some surveyor takes them as LAW and includes his interpretation of them in an insurance survey requiring compliance or no coverage.
Therein lies Mr. L_t's problem. How does one second guess a surveyor's opinion X number of years down the road when the next survey is required by the insurer? Perhaps Mr. L_t can hire an "accredited" surveyor to advise as to the best location and state in writing that it complies with what the insurance company (AYBC) requires. Yes, an added expense but a document in writing on the insurance file may avert any future problems, should they arise.

I'm just curious...... Meeting ABYC standards is often called out as an insurance requirement. Has anyone ever seen this in a policy? I never have.

Greetings,
Mr. tt. I think the inference is by default in that the "surveyor" must be "certified". I suspect part of a "surveyor's" certification is at least being aware of AYBC suggestions.
IMO there is "certified" and certifiable. Sometimes, one and the same. I'm sure we all have a story, of some sort, regarding insurance surveys and the lunacy that has ensued.

twistedtree said:

I'm not sure if this was in response to my suggestion of a drain hose, but if it was....

I didn't mean to suggest the drain needed to go down past the gunwale. Just that by using a drain hose, the owner might be able to direct the discharge to more easily comply with the 20" rule.

As a non-professional my experience with all this is limited, but I have always found the ABYC guidelines to be well reasoned, objective guidelines that address real safety risks. Not bureaucratic regs for the sake of regs.

Unfortunately that doesn't stop people like psneed described from treating that as such, and playing the role of un-thinking bureaucratic enforcer. But I suppose we will always be stuck with such people.

Click to expand...

I might have a touch of that mentality but the reality is that I disagree that a boating guideline like some ABYC "suggestions" is one size fits all. Not necessarily that the ABYC suggestions are bureaucratic or unnecessary.

Any more than safety equipment isn't one size "list of required equipment" fits all vessels.

And having never this paragraph before.....

"As far as practicable, these standards and technical information reports are stated in terms of performance and are not intended to preclude attainment of desired results by other means. These standards are of general applicability, and there may be instances in which the particular use, configuration, or other characteristics of a specific boat, or classes of boats, may result in special requirements differing from the generally applicable standards........The standards and technical information reports are intended to achieve a specified level of performance, and it may be desirable and appropriate to attain that goal by a variety of means.


This is a good thing...It will soften my rants somewhat....and I can attach this to every insurance compliance letter that has some reference to a standard for an old boat where meeting the standard or the "interpreted" standard may actually be more unsafe or equal.

And the answer is both my recent surveys referenced ABYC recommendations and so have the others I have seen lately...

Here is one from my last survey that makes NO SENSE to me at all considering the tank was already installed and over 20 years old. How the heck could I comply with this unless I use the "catch all" reasonable paragraph I posted above? Thus my dislike for others to "interpret" a todays best practice on an old boat. A better recommendation would be to replace if unable to determine current serviceability of the tank by any tank certification process.

Here is the surveyor's recommentdation from the survey ....
on fuel tanks."


The insurance company then often just "mark, bound, copy" these surveyor recommendations and makes insurance contingent on fixing the items cited.