Thinking About Better Offshore Motorboats

This is a blog I follow. Its written by a sailor, who like me is thinking about the longer term benefits of a power boat. Perhaps of interest to others here:

Thinking About Better Offshore Motorboats

https://www.morganscloud.com/2016/12/13/thinking-about-better-offshore-motorboats/

Who would have thought it?
It`s about Artnautica.
Again.

Yes, everyone would like to have a cheap FPB. Even the used ones are not cheap.

The blogger could satisfy his goals by buying a used acceptable 60 foot sailing vessel, install much bigger tanks, furl the sails and go after it. Of course 10 knots may be a bit of a reach.

Or buy a very nice Nordhavn and go slow.

Different people different approaches to the same issue. Having spent over 50 of my 78 years dealing with both sail and power( always both together) I really have trouble understanding people who wish to cross oceans in pure power craft when a combined approach has so many advantages. The argument that sail management while under way is a problem for some has almost been completely negated by technical advances in this department. The multihull option has changed the concept of living in a cave to some extent. Since many ocean crossing power craft must go slow to deal with fuel capacity issues a motor sailor or relatively fast mono or multi hull sail craft can be faster and have the full time stabilization of sail. I do get it that some people just cant relate to sail that aside why not a sail power combo?

There are some very nice center cockpit sail boats that would make fairly comfortable passage makers. Maybe not as warm and cozy as a typical trawler PH, but certainly better than the typical aft, open cockpit in most sailboats. Some of these are Yawls with some decent sail options for a variety of conditions.

Something like "BURMA"? Modernized.

eyschulman said:

Different people different approaches to the same issue. Having spent over 50 of my 78 years dealing with both sail and power( always both together) I really have trouble understanding people who wish to cross oceans in pure power craft when a combined approach has so many advantages. The argument that sail management while under way is a problem for some has almost been completely negated by technical advances in this department. The multihull option has changed the concept of living in a cave to some extent. Since many ocean crossing power craft must go slow to deal with fuel capacity issues a motor sailor or relatively fast mono or multi hull sail craft can be faster and have the full time stabilization of sail. I do get it that some people just cant relate to sail that aside why not a sail power combo?

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Having a motorsailer, I get criticism from the "purists" on both sides who have never experienced a motorsailer.

The beauty of motorsailing is how the motor and sails work together and complement each other to increase efficiency, comfort and safety. It is nice to have a choice of motor, sail, or motorsail for propulsion depending on conditions, direction or preference.

AusCan said:

. The beauty of motorsailing is how the motor and sails work together and complement each other to increase efficiency, comfort and safety. It is nice to have a choice of motor, sail, or motorsail for propulsion depending on conditions, direction or preference.

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We lived and cruised on a sailboat for 10 years. We put over 3500 hours on the engine. We sold the sailboat and bought Hobo when we decided we weren't crossing oceans anymore. Since we went over to the dark side, I've sometimes missed the quiet, back up power source and vertical stabilizer.

dwhatty said:

Something like "BURMA"? Modernized.

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If I was going to do world cruising, I would try to find something like this
http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/199...4564/Deltaville/VA/United-States#.WFcvT7Q76hA

I like the idea of a motorsailer. Sadly, they remind me of an IO (inboard outboard). Instead of taking the best of both, they seem to be a compromise of the less desirable features of both.

Ted

It's all about intended purpose and the owner/buyer's priorities. Where the priorities are heavily focused on a boat's off-shore passage making characteristics, one pretty quickly arrives at a Dashew boat or whatever the boat is that's being promoted in this thread. Here's the Morgan's Cloud list of priorities:

• Able to cruise offshore at 8 knots or better with a top cruise speed of 10 knots.
• Fuel efficient at that speed—two to four times better than trawlers currently available.
• As safe offshore as a well-found sailboat.

It's only about passage making. That's why there are what, a dozen such boats in existence?

For most people buying long range cruising boats, including boats intended to cross oceans, the passage making portion of the boat's use is very, very small. Even the hardest core, round the world cruisers spend only a small fraction of their boat time doing off-shore passages. As a result, it's off-shore performance is only one of many important criteria for the boat.

Most of us moving from sail boats to power boats want to shed more of the characteristics of a sail boat, not just the sails themselves. We want more space, more amenities, rooms with a view, comfort while cruising, easy launching of a tender, etc., etc.

O C Diver said:

I like the idea of a motorsailer. Sadly, they remind me of an IO (inboard outboard). Instead of taking the best of both, they seem to be a compromise of the less desirable features of both.

Ted

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I would say the older design motor sailors would fit your description but not a new design aimed at close to 100/100 % power and sail ability made of modern materials. These boats can be fast under sail and power and dynamite with sail up and some power especially going to wind. Marine architects have learned a thing or two over the last 50 years and if you have the $ to let one in cahoots with a good builder loose you can have it both ways.

eyschulman said:

I would say the older design motor sailors would fit your description but not a new design aimed at close to 100/100 % power and sail ability made of modern materials. These boats can be fast under sail and power and dynamite with sail up and some power especially going to wind. Marine architects have learned a thing or two over the last 50 years and if you have the $ to let one in cahoots with a good builder loose you can have it both ways.

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Ok, here's what I want in a 42 to 48' boat.

From the sail boat:

1. A boat that sails like a passage maker and can point well.
2. Stabilization coming from it's mast, hull and keel(s).

From the power boat:

1. A roomy pilothouse with an unobstructed view (no mast and jib in the way).
2. Comfortable rooms (no cramped staterooms, living in the cave or catamaran hull).
3. An engine that can cruise at hull speed for days.
4. A big enough propeller, shaft, and gear to drive the boat into wind and seas without loosing speed.
5. Fuel capacity in hundreds of gallons so you can go somewhere without sailing.
6. Fresh water capacity in hundreds of gallons.
7. A galley that looks like it came from a trawler not a sailboat.
8. A generator, air conditioning, and a washer / drier.
9. 5' draft; 48' air draft.

Ted

O C Diver said:

I like the idea of a motorsailer. Sadly, they remind me of an IO (inboard outboard). Instead of taking the best of both, they seem to be a compromise of the less desirable features of both.

Ted

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The first thought that came to my mind as I read this was "Island Packet"
Sorry...
Bruce

O C Diver said:

Ok, here's what I want in a 42 to 48' boat.

From the sail boat:

1. A boat that sails like a passage maker and can point well.
2. Stabilization coming from it's mast, hull and keel(s).

From the power boat:

1. A roomy pilothouse with an unobstructed view (no mast and jib in the way).
2. Comfortable rooms (no cramped staterooms, living in the cave or catamaran hull).
3. An engine that can cruise at hull speed for days.
4. A big enough propeller, shaft, and gear to drive the boat into wind and seas without loosing speed.
5. Fuel capacity in hundreds of gallons so you can go somewhere without sailing.
6. Fresh water capacity in hundreds of gallons.
7. A galley that looks like it came from a trawler not a sailboat.
8. A generator, air conditioning, and a washer / drier.
9. 5' draft; 48' air draft.

Ted

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There are two low volume production or semi custom boats that come to mind Bruckman 50 and a similar modern motor sailor with Hoods name attached. Both can cruise at 9+ K under power and sail well with the engine off. The Amel 54 no pilot house more in the sail catagory but a very capable ocean hopper that will travel at trawler speeds sail or power.

dhays said:

If I was going to do world cruising, I would try to find something like this
1993 Amel Super Maramu Sail Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com

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Those are nice sailboats. And that looks like a very good example of a used one.

Capt.Bill11 said:

Those are nice sailboats. And that looks like a very good example of a used one.

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It is a beauty but cannot say that I approve of its refrigerator



It reminds me too much of this refrigerator

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/199...rsailor-3006862/WA/United-States#.WFi29YZOKEc

This seems like a decent candidate-- good size pilothouse, Cummins power.

O C Diver said:

Ok, here's what I want in a 42 to 48' boat.

From the sail boat:

1. A boat that sails like a passage maker and can point well.
2. Stabilization coming from it's mast, hull and keel(s).

From the power boat:

1. A roomy pilothouse with an unobstructed view (no mast and jib in the way).
2. Comfortable rooms (no cramped staterooms, living in the cave or catamaran hull).
3. An engine that can cruise at hull speed for days.
4. A big enough propeller, shaft, and gear to drive the boat into wind and seas without loosing speed.
5. Fuel capacity in hundreds of gallons so you can go somewhere without sailing.
6. Fresh water capacity in hundreds of gallons.
7. A galley that looks like it came from a trawler not a sailboat.
8. A generator, air conditioning, and a washer / drier.
9. 5' draft; 48' air draft.

Ted

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Could be Nauticat 441 made in Finland

Not to forget the Nordy 56 motorsailer, designed exactly for this purpose. If one could afford one, that is..?

I keep looking at examples of these and wondering why...
I like David Hays suggestion of an Amel much better. A sailboat should sail!
Life isn't always a reach...
Bruce

Bruce B said:

I keep looking at examples of these and wondering why...
I like David Hays suggestion of an Amel much better. A sailboat should sail!
Life isn't always a reach...
Bruce

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But I though most sailboats ended up motoring over half the time anyway (or whatever the ratio), so if you are going to motor why not do it in more comfort and with more speed, then still sail when there is wind?

For an offshore passage maker I think a motorsailer with sail assist makes sense, but I'm not a die hard sailor.

cardude01 said:

But I though most sailboats ended up motoring over half the time anyway (or whatever the ratio), so if you are going to motor why not do it in more comfort and with more speed, then still sail when there is wind?

For an offshore passage maker I think a motorsailer with sail assist makes sense, but I'm not a die hard sailor.

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Sailboats motor everywhere when they are doing the coastal cruising thing and they have to get there. We had a great sailing boat that could actually sail to weather beautifully but we motored to Block Island 95% of the time. The trip from Newport to BI is dead to windward in the prevailing SW wind so if you want to actually get there... When we were heading to Maine we always had the engine on too...in fact it became tiresome.
Now, when we sailed to Bermuda we sailed. There is something amazing about crossing large distances by sail! This is where the sailboat is at its best in my opinion.
If I were to cross an ocean on a small boat (any boat that isn't a ship is small when crossing an ocean by the way) I'd want to sail and if I'm sailing, I'd like the boat to sail well.
Bruce

eyschulman said:

There are two low volume production or semi custom boats that come to mind Bruckman 50 and a similar modern motor sailor with Hoods name attached. Both can cruise at 9+ K under power and sail well with the engine off. The Amel 54 no pilot house more in the sail catagory but a very capable ocean hopper that will travel at trawler speeds sail or power.

Click to expand...

If I was to buy an Amal 54, I would have a hard top built for the cockpit instead of the rag top. I would have it built with the same profile as most of the canvas but more robust so it could withstand a hard hit from the side by a wave. It would still be open in the back, but an enclosure there would serve to make cooler temps comfortable. Not something I would choose for going to the higher latitudes in the winter months however. I like my comforts too much now.

Bruce B said:

Sailboats motor everywhere when they are doing the coastal cruising thing and they have to get there. We had a great sailing boat that could actually sail to weather beautifully but we motored to Block Island 95% of the time. The trip from Newport to BI is dead to windward in the prevailing SW wind so if you want to actually get there... When we were heading to Maine we always had the engine on too...in fact it became tiresome.

Now, when we sailed to Bermuda we sailed. There is something amazing about crossing large distances by sail! This is where the sailboat is at its best in my opinion.

If I were to cross an ocean on a small boat (any boat that isn't a ship is small when crossing an ocean by the way) I'd want to sail and if I'm sailing, I'd like the boat to sail well.

Bruce

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Not surprisingly, I'm with Bruce on this one. I moved to power partly to make our year round use of the boat more comfortable. Since we do nothing but coastal and inland cruising we were like Bruce, we would be under power most of the time. Since Puget Sound is oriented roughly North/South and the prevailing wind is out of the South down were we are, 1/2 the time the wind was coming from the wrong direction. Sure you can beat upwind, but remember that half the time the tide is against you as well. I spend many hours as a kid tacking back and forth in the Narrows never making any headway. Also around here, when the weather is nice (i.e. not raining and not cold) there typically isn't any wind. Summer has relatively low winds but we have great wind in the winter. There is a reason why most of our race series take place in the wet months. Given all that, we motored about 3/4 of the time. Half of that was actually motorsailing as we would get an extra 1/2 to 1 knot of speed and a much more comfortable ride.

If I was to do ocean passages, I would want a sailboat that would actually sail well. They are naturally stabilized and can give you relatively consistent speeds since most of the ocean have more consistent winds. Motorsailors would be fine as long as they actually sailed well. I fully admit to a prejudice against them born from seeing way too many poor examples of the breed in my life.

I can't say that my boat points well into the wind, and it isn't a luxury condo, - but for $50k its more comfortable in rough water than anything else I could find.

I really do love motorsailing, with the sails and engine acting in unison to provide propulsion and stability in changing conditions. I enjoy it more than sailing or motoring alone.

dhays said:

Not surprisingly, I'm with Bruce on this one. I moved to power partly to make our year round use of the boat more comfortable. Since we do nothing but coastal and inland cruising we were like Bruce, we would be under power most of the time. Since Puget Sound is oriented roughly North/South and the prevailing wind is out of the South down were we are, 1/2 the time the wind was coming from the wrong direction. Sure you can beat upwind, but remember that half the time the tide is against you as well. I spend many hours as a kid tacking back and forth in the Narrows never making any headway. Also around here, when the weather is nice (i.e. not raining and not cold) there typically isn't any wind. Summer has relatively low winds but we have great wind in the winter. There is a reason why most of our race series take place in the wet months. Given all that, we motored about 3/4 of the time. Half of that was actually motorsailing as we would get an extra 1/2 to 1 knot of speed and a much more comfortable ride.

If I was to do ocean passages, I would want a sailboat that would actually sail well. They are naturally stabilized and can give you relatively consistent speeds since most of the ocean have more consistent winds. Motorsailors would be fine as long as they actually sailed well. I fully admit to a prejudice against them born from seeing way too many poor examples of the breed in my life.

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Dave
That was a much more eloquent response than mine.
Next time I'll simply ask you to write my post for me!
Thanks,
Bruce

I imagined sailing my own boat across the seas. But that's not really me. Instead of purchasing a diesel duck, chose the gunkholing Coot. Prefer day sails and short trips between marinas and restaurants. Done several trans-Atlantic and USA-Hawaiian trips, but that was on cruise ships. Good thing too. Experienced a couple of hurricanes and fifty-foot waves. Glad not to experience that in a small boat. ... Small boat trans-oceanic cruisers, I salute you!

For a comfortable ride, limited heeling and optimized speed over ground may I submit the following: