Vancouver to San Francisco in December

In the final stages of purchasing a Beneteau Swift Trawler 44 that's located in Vancouver. About to further engage with a few delivery captains about bringing it down the coast to San Francisco. I've been told that it's okay to bring it down in December as long as the captain looks for weather windows, and that the boat might have to periodically sit at port (or two) during the trip in order to wait for another weather window to open.

Any thoughts on this strategy in relation to the west coast in December? Lastly, any specific guidance or advice for a new owner regarding such a delivery? (Questions I should be asking the captain, etc.)

Thanks!
Mike

Your concept might be workable, but I'd suggest an alternative. BC has fabulous cruising grounds, enjoy them for a time then take the boat to SF, or hire someone to do it for you, at a more favorable time of the year.

I recall a number of TF members extolling the pleasure of winter cruising in southern BC, and from Vancouver you have great areas within easy reach. I shipped my boat to Australia ex: Vancouver, and in common with a friend who also left the area after just one season, our regrets were that we did not spend another season there before leaving.

Moving and waiting can occur any time of year on that part of the Pacific, not just December. Pick a captain that routinely makes that trip. Most on the west coast do.

Congrats on the new boat!

A trip south at any time is one where the weather dictates everything. Are you making the trip also? If so, be prepared to sit it out in port in order to wait for the right weather window. Make sure you and the captain are on the same page with regards to salary while waiting the weather out.
Make the trip enjoyable, not your last!
Cheers

Insequent said:

Your concept might be workable, but I'd suggest an alternative. BC has fabulous cruising grounds, enjoy them for a time then take the boat to SF, or hire someone to do it for you, at a more favorable time of the year.

I recall a number of TF members extolling the pleasure of winter cruising in southern BC, and from Vancouver you have great areas within easy reach. I shipped my boat to Australia ex: Vancouver, and in common with a friend who also left the area after just one season, our regrets were that we did not spend another season there before leaving.

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I would love to take that approach, but unfortunately it isn't really feasible right now. But yes, cruising the PNW would be a lot of fun.

Thanks!
Mike

December is the worst month from the stand of daylight hours. Losing these hours tightens up the bar entrance windows with resultant longer waits for the few good weather Windows.

A new to you boat, unknown to you maintenance history, and generally rotten coastal weather this time of the year conspire against you. Couple that with thus far, reliance to inspect and purchase the vessel on others, some difficulties may well arise.

You may want to consider leaving the boat in Seattle (fresh water) and making a few visits to insure all is well with the vessel. Your delivery captain or Marina/yard - there are good ones - could go over the vessel with a keen eye to ferret out issues. Then in April when historic good weather and much longer days appear the trip becomes an easy jaunt rather than a trip into the abyss.

MichaelB1969 said:

I would love to take that approach, but unfortunately it isn't really feasible right now. But yes, cruising the PNW would be a lot of fun.

Thanks!
Mike

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Welcome and congrats!

You are picking the least desirable time of year to transit south. If you choose to do so, you must ensure that you/your transit skipper are not on a firm delivery schedule.

Weather windows are a small part of the equation- prepping the vessel for the trip is equally if not more important. Is the fuel capacity such that you can safely bypass a closed bar and continue south? Has the vessel been sitting a while and perhaps need a good going thru before departing? Can you (or the skipper) change the inevitable clogged fuel filter at sea and still maintain SOLAS?

Insurance wise, I'd be hesitant to write coverage without the above (and more) answered to my satisfaction. The Pacific in winter is no joke, and it will kill you.

Mike, a PS. One guy to meet in person for good advice is Pau Hana. Whether yard, marina, Captain selection etc he is on top of things.

sunchaser said:

Mike, a PS. One guy to meet in person for good advice is Pau Hana. Whether yard, marina, Captain selection etc he is on top of things.

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Mike, this is the best advice on this thread. It'll cost a trip north and will pay dividends far-far beyond this trip for years to come. A face to face with sunchaser if the timing works out would be my advice too.

CPseudonym said:

Mike, this is the best advice on this thread. It'll cost a trip north and will pay dividends far-far beyond this trip for years to come. A face to face with sunchaser if the timing works out would be my advice too.

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Thanks, I'll definitely keep this in mind. By the way, I like your location.

Thanks, I look forward to changing that in a few years


Maybe

Bad idea

I have made the journey 3 times and I would never attempt it in the winter. My advice, don't go.

Your comment regarding "not feasible" concerns me a bit. You don't get to decide what is and isn't feasible. The Captain and the conditions do that. Is it feasible to get stuck in Astoria for a month, or Gold Beach?

As suggested in various other posts, I would first do enough of a shakedown cruise where it's located for an experienced captain to sign off that it's in good shape and ready for the cruise.

Then the most flexible timetable in the history of mankind. I also don't know who will be aboard or their experience. However, I ask you to consider the long term impact on their boating interest if the first trip they find the bars (not the drinking kind, but the inlets) closed and have to stay out and bounce around in 6' wind waves and 10' swells, which can probably be done safely, but in total misery. I've known people to say "never again" after such an early experience.

And do have an agreement as to Captain's pay while waiting and as to how long they're available. If you're delayed a week here and a week there and then stuck in Brookings Harbor for a week with no immediate sign of an opening, the captain may have to fly back to Seattle for commitments and fly back to the boat three weeks later. If the Captain's rate is $300 a day and your four week trip becomes 10 weeks, that could be $21,000.

We made that trip in 17 days in perfect conditions (but that was with some stopping to enjoy so could have easily been 10 days). It can be made in less but we didn't choose to travel at night. If you choose to do so have plenty of captains so fatigue doesn't take over. We were also in a bigger boat. If you plan a 14 day trip that time of year, it can end up anywhere from 14 to 60 days and most likely to be between 21 and 30 days.

Back to feasible. You must be prepared to call the rest of the trip off at any point along the way, either due to weather conditions or problems with the boat.

That said, December is considered a bad month, but everything I say above really applies to that trip anytime of the year. We had a member make it in a new to him boat not that many months ago and he had basically good conditions, although a more seaworthy boat. We were lucky but we did it in early October.

BandB said:

Your comment regarding "not feasible" concerns me a bit. You don't get to decide what is and isn't feasible. The Captain and the conditions do that. Is it feasible to get stuck in Astoria for a month, or Gold Beach?

As suggested in various other posts, I would first do enough of a shakedown cruise where it's located for an experienced captain to sign off that it's in good shape and ready for the cruise.

Then the most flexible timetable in the history of mankind. I also don't know who will be aboard or their experience. However, I ask you to consider the long term impact on their boating interest if the first trip they find the bars (not the drinking kind, but the inlets) closed and have to stay out and bounce around in 6' wind waves and 10' swells, which can probably be done safely, but in total misery. I've known people to say "never again" after such an early experience.

And do have an agreement as to Captain's pay while waiting and as to how long they're available. If you're delayed a week here and a week there and then stuck in Brookings Harbor for a week with no immediate sign of an opening, the captain may have to fly back to Seattle for commitments and fly back to the boat three weeks later. If the Captain's rate is $300 a day and your four week trip becomes 10 weeks, that could be $21,000.

We made that trip in 17 days in perfect conditions (but that was with some stopping to enjoy so could have easily been 10 days). It can be made in less but we didn't choose to travel at night. If you choose to do so have plenty of captains so fatigue doesn't take over. We were also in a bigger boat. If you plan a 14 day trip that time of year, it can end up anywhere from 14 to 60 days and most likely to be between 21 and 30 days.

Back to feasible. You must be prepared to call the rest of the trip off at any point along the way, either due to weather conditions or problems with the boat.

That said, December is considered a bad month, but everything I say above really applies to that trip anytime of the year. We had a member make it in a new to him boat not that many months ago and he had basically good conditions, although a more seaworthy boat. We were lucky but we did it in early October.

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BandB, thanks for the advice. In terms of "feasible", I think you misunderstood. I only meant that it wasn't feasible for my family and I to spend time enjoying the boat up in BC for the winter. If the boat had to stay there due to weather, it would stay there. Just without us!

The Captain I spoke with said he'd want to spend two days getting to know the boat before departing, and was also clear that the weather would dictate the schedule. His rate is $400 per day with crew member and $250 if stuck at a port for more than 24 hours due to weather or mechanical issues.

The best advice here is to park it in Seattle for the winter. Or ship it.

I had a friend who did it in a Nordhaven and he got stuck in Eureka for a month. That was after spending 24 hours hove to offshore while he rode out a storm that had not been forecast. His wife took the bus to San Fran and swore she'd never get back on the boat. He had stabilizers, too, one was ripped off the boat, which made the rest of the cruise into port interesting.

Have you looked into the cost and feasibility of trucking from Olympia WA?

MichaelB1969 said:

BandB, thanks for the advice. In terms of "feasible", I think you misunderstood. I only meant that it wasn't feasible for my family and I to spend time enjoying the boat up in BC for the winter. If the boat had to stay there due to weather, it would stay there. Just without us!

The Captain I spoke with said he'd want to spend two days getting to know the boat before departing, and was also clear that the weather would dictate the schedule. His rate is $400 per day with crew member and $250 if stuck at a port for more than 24 hours due to weather or mechanical issues.

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And the Captain is in charge, if he says "no go" it's no go, although you also have the right to overrule him in that regard and say no when he says yes, you just can't say yes when he says no.

How long will you have for the trip? Who will be aboard?

Seattle would be much preferred so that when we did visit the boat we wouldn't have to deal with customs.

For what it's worth, having been through a storm and 9'+ waves on a 27' boat as a teenager, in a million years I wouldn't have my wife and child on the boat for the journey down the coast. They have little experience on a boat. The Bay and Delta will be a perfect introduction for them.

Thanks for all the replies!
Mike

BandB said:

And the Captain is in charge, if he says "no go" it's no go, although you also have the right to overrule him in that regard and say no when he says yes, you just can't say yes when he says no.

How long will you have for the trip? Who will be aboard?

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Yes, honestly that isn't even in question. I would never want to put anyone in danger simply to get the boat here more quickly. I hope anyone would think the same.

Anyway, it would be a captain with a 60 ton master's license and a crew member he works with. That's all.

I'd "hope" it wouldn't go more than 3 weeks.

Hi MichaelB1969,

I'm sure you'll get more opinions than Carter has liver pills for this question. So, let me add my $.02. I'm a 100-ton Near-Coastal Master, and have made five passages in similar boats north/south along the CA/OR/WA coast in the recent past. IMHO, the very best time of year to do so is April or May. The prevailing low pressure fronts that originate in the Gulf of Alaska in the winter that generate the typical winter storms with big wind and waves from the southwest have subsided, and the thermal conditions that generate the summer north-westerlies have not yet started up. Hence, relatively smooth water, with more daylight hours should bar crossings be required.

A port-to-port daylight trip in December is NOT one I would undertake, certainly not in a 44' Beneteau. Running 24/7 in between weather fronts that time of year IS possible (anything's possible, until it's not!) given good luck, a ballsy skipper and crew, a well-found boat, and LOTS of time available to wait out the weather if necessary. If you find such a skipper, pay REAL close attention to how he proposes to make the trip, and leave the rookies at home.

Seems like you may have found a pretty hungry (or inexperianced) delivery skipper. What the heck's a 60-ton license, anyway? Have you vetted him properly? The going rate for that delivery 10 years ago was $400/day for the skipper, $250/day for a deckhand, plus expenses. I expect the going rate is higher today. And no professional delivery skipper I know provides a reduced charge for the lay-days. The owner should expect to pay full pop whether the boat's at sea or not. Time is money to these guys, and you shouldn't expect them to discount there time if they are not underway.

Unless there's a REAL compelling reason to have the boat in SF immediately, my final piece of advice is to leave the boat in BC or Seattle until April, paying attention to WA state registration requirements to do so. Then, engage an experienced delivery skipper and deckhand, hop aboard as the third hand, and enjoy the trip south in the spring. Lots to learn, lots to see, fun to be had. And you don't have to practice bleeding to do so.

Regards,

Pete

jungpeter said:

Seems like you may have found a pretty hungry (or inexperianced) delivery skipper. What the heck's a 60-ton license, anyway? Have you vetted him properly? The going rate for that delivery 10 years ago was $400/day for the skipper, $250/day for a deckhand, plus expenses. I expect the going rate is higher today. And no professional delivery skipper I know provides a reduced charge for the lay-days. The owner should expect to pay full pop whether the boat's at sea or not. Time is money to these guys, and you shouldn't expect them to discount there time if they are not underway.

Unless there's a REAL compelling reason to have the boat in SF immediately, my final piece of advice is to leave the boat in BC or Seattle until April, paying attention to WA state registration requirements to do so. Then, engage an experienced delivery skipper and deckhand, hop aboard as the third hand, and enjoy the trip south in the spring. Lots to learn, lots to see, fun to be had. And you don't have to practice bleeding to do so.

Regards,

Pete

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60 Ton is an entry level Canadian term. Master Limited 60 ton - Transport Canada Certification

60 Ton is somewhat akin to a six pack in the US but requires much less experience, only 60 days.

You're right on a probable lack of experience.

60 days is the Washington limit and sales tax would also come into question unless paid elsewhere. There are a lot of complicating factors. I would hope you're using an agent to advise you on all of them.

Did you look into shipping the boat? Perhaps from Seattle?

Stabi said:

Have you looked into the cost and feasibility of trucking from Olympia WA?

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I have not. I believe the fly bridge would need to be removed, which I wouldn't be thrilled about.

MichaelB1969 said:

I have not. I believe the fly bridge would need to be removed, which I wouldn't be thrilled about.

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Well you will never know unless you ask. I would call Dudley Boat Transport and/or Associated Boat Transport, both out of WA and find out if in fact the bridge needs to be removed. They will know, and if doable give you a firm price. Both have stellar reputations.

Michael B,

I am interested in learning about the insurance piece for this trip, please, if you are willing to share.

If it stays up here until spring, I can probably give you 4-5 days, maybe 7, for free. Please PM for my phone number if you want to discuss.

Jeff

Stabi said:

Well you will never know unless you ask. I would call Dudley Boat Transport and/or Associated Boat Transport, both out of WA and find out if in fact the bridge needs to be removed. They will know, and if doable give you a firm price. Both have stellar reputations.

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Thanks, I'll definitely give them a call tomorrow. Appreciate it!

MichalB1969 you’ve gotten some good advice, generally not to go. At least not until the boat and crew are fully ready and the weather has moderated in spring. I’ve worked the PNW inland and near coastal waters for decades and made the near coastal run many times. Personally unless I’m in a well found hell for stout boat that I am intimately familiar with I want to be off the ocean by Oct 10. I’m going to try to put the fear of Neptune in you!

My first comment is on a Capt with a 60 ton license. Generally US licenses less than 100 tons are issued to those with very limited experience. This is not to say big tonnage on the ticket equals experience or guarantees seamanship. But, under 100 tons? I’ve not met very many with less than 100 ton tickets that have the experience you are going to need. I see that BnB has learned that if this is a Canadian Capt they hold an entry level license.

Requesting 2 days familiarization is a sign the Capt either is a risk taker or does not understand the risks involved.

I am not familiar with the Beneteau Swift Trawlwer 44 so I had to find one on Yachtworld to look at. Too much glass. None of it the kind that can take boarding seas. If you’re trying to scoot across a bar to get out of a storm breaking seas may blow out a window.

Recreational boats in general do not have the stuff it takes to survive extreme conditions when things go wrong. Generally they don’t have water tight compartments and lack adequate de-watering equipment. Couple that with flimsy windows and you’re begging for trouble.

Regarding weather windows. Well, anyone who has tried to play that game in winter on the west coast has gotten spanked. From BC to SF it’s not a matter if you will get spanked, it’s how often and how bad. Weather forecasts are just that. Forecasts, best guesses if you will. Sometimes they are plain wrong. Yes, they’ve gotten much better in recent years but when they are wrong and you are many hours from safe harbor that is small comfort.

A couple of sea stories for your entertainment. We departed Seattle late October bound for Astoria Oregon. We knew the weather was not good so intended to lay over in Neah Bay waiting for a weather window. We weren’t the only ones waiting. Ocean going tugs, off shore commercial trawlers, smaller work boats and a number of recreational boats. Finally things started looking up after 5 days. The big tugs pulled out, the commercial trawlers pulled out and everyone was getting ready to go. The storm we’d been waiting on was easing up, not gone yet but easing up. A new storm was headed in but according to forecasts if we departed at midnight we’d be crossing the Columbia River bar in daylight at slack tide in the relative calm between storms. When I say relative calm I mean something like 8’ - 10’ seas. Well the forecast was wrong. The first storm did not die off as much as predicted and the next came in earlier and stronger. We didn’t make Astoria. We were in 24’ confused seas approaching Grays Harbor. Yes, actual sea height as verfied by the wave data buoy. I decided to try to make Grays Harbor. We did but it was terrifying. When we did finally head to Astoria we again played the weather window game. We crossed the bar just before the Cape Disappointment CG closed the bar for two weeks.

Mind you that was in a 65’ steel work boat with proper doors, hatches and windows.

This next one is not a wither story but relates to sliding glass doors on the aft end of the house. On another coastal transit we departed Seattle bound for Eureka Ca in June. At first it really wasn’t a bad trip, a bit of lump and bump, some nice weather. Just a summer run down the coast for a workboat. As we worked south the weather kicked up. Stronger than predicted so I decided to duck into Coos Bay Oregon for a break and to top up the tanks. She rides better with a belly full of fuel. We got stuck there for 3 days waiting out a blow. Among the other transient boats was a pleasure boat about the size of yours with the same kind of doors on the aft end of the house. Unfortunately he’d taken boarding seas crossing the bar and the sliding doors had been blown out. Had he blown the doors out at sea I doubt he would have survived. Continued boarding seas would have flooded the boat and without watertight compartments and adequate de-watering gear would have killed the engines in short order. The delivery Capt was a cocky sort, a legend in his own mind. Long on ego and short on experience.

When choosing a delivery Capt. I’d want to see a proven track record of near coastal transits. I’d want the Capt to ask questions like “When was the last time the tanks were polished?” “When and where did you last fuel up?” “How is your stock of fuel filters? Spares?” “Do you have the tools needed to handle problems?” “Has your life raft (do you even have one) been inspected?” If a delivery Capt told me he'd be ready for a winter coastal transit after 2 days I'd say "Thank you for your time. Your services won't be needed."

Heed the advice of others and don’t go or send the boat. It’s not worth the risk. You’re just asking for trouble.

I'm not at all familiar with the tax consequences of leaving the boat in Wa over winter. Maybe you could beat the tax man by having the boat shuttled between Sydney BC and Friday Harbor Wa several times over the winter?

Stabi said:

Have you looked into the cost and feasibility of trucking from Olympia WA?

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This would be my thought as well.

Have you looked at the weather for December?

This year, so far, we have had the worst October on record. November has been no better, though we are not at the end yet, so this may be less bad than other Novembers. With that as precedent, how can you consider going anywhere in December?

Then there is the boat. Beneteaus are pretty boats, not ugly like Nordhavns. There is a reason for that difference. With my views on the weather, stated above, I wouldn't be taking a Nordy down the Oregon coast this December, and certainly not a Beneteau. I consider my own boat to be quite a bit more of a sea boat than a Beneteau and would never consider trying to move it to SF in the winter.

Then the crew.......

Close on your purchase in the spring.

BandB said:

60 Ton is an entry level Canadian term. Master Limited 60 ton - Transport Canada Certification

60 Ton is somewhat akin to a six pack in the US but requires much less experience, only 60 days.

You're right on a probable lack of experience.

60 days is the Washington limit and sales tax would also come into question unless paid elsewhere. There are a lot of complicating factors. I would hope you're using an agent to advise you on all of them.

Did you look into shipping the boat? Perhaps from Seattle?

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Regarding time limits in WA, I thought it was a total of 6 months in any one year but in two 3 month blocks. Time between them can be as short as one day. But note that a 3 month block can be extended if the boat is having repairs being done. You just go down to the local licensing office and fill in the form, it is very straightforward.

Mike, I assume the 'not feasible to spend a season in BC' relates to work requirements for either you or your wife, plus school for your daughter. Fair enough. But here's another alternative. Take a bit of time over the Xmas period, and spend it with your family on the boat. If you can get at least two weeks take the boat through the Gulf Islands, and the San Juans, down to Port Townsend. If you don't have that much time, mooch about in the Vancouver area. Then get your delivery skipper to take the Bendy (ok, a nickname for their sail boats, the power ones might have stiffer layup) down to Port Townsend.

Either way, once in Port Townsend, haul out. There are bound to be some things that need to be done that you or the delivery captain will have identified. And being on the hard there is cheaper than being in a slip. If you need to wait until April/May then fine, your time on the hard for repairs is easily added to the 2 or 3 month limit that otherwise applies to the WA cruising permit.

Whatever you do, take heed of Pau Hana re: insurance considerations and many others regarding risks involved in attempting the trip south in an unknown boat at that time of year.

Insequent said:

Regarding time limits in WA, I thought it was a total of 6 months in any one year but in two 3 month blocks. Time between them can be as short as one day. But note that a 3 month block can be extended if the boat is having repairs being done. You just go down to the local licensing office and fill in the form, it is very straightforward.

Mike, I assume the 'not feasible to spend a season in BC' relates to work requirements for either you or your wife, plus school for your daughter. Fair enough. But here's another alternative. Take a bit of time over the Xmas period, and spend it with your family on the boat. If you can get at least two weeks take the boat through the Gulf Islands, and the San Juans, down to Port Townsend. If you don't have that much time, mooch about in the Vancouver area. Then get your delivery skipper to take the Bendy (ok, a nickname for their sail boats, the power ones might have stiffer layup) down to Port Townsend.

Either way, once in Port Townsend, haul out. There are bound to be some things that need to be done that you or the delivery captain will have identified. And being on the hard there is cheaper than being in a slip. If you need to wait until April/May then fine, your time on the hard for repairs is easily added to the 2 or 3 month limit that otherwise applies to the WA cruising permit.

Whatever you do, take heed of Pau Hana re: insurance considerations and many others regarding risks involved in attempting the trip south in an unknown boat at that time of year.

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If your tax info is correct, that is encouraging. And yes, the not feasible part is work-related. We are actually going to Playa Del Carmen for the holidays, we booked it before we had any idea we'd be closing on a boat!

I'm going to call the trucking companies to see if that's an option, speak to much more experienced delivery captains who have made the trip many times, and also consider keeping it up north until April/May...and and see where it leads me.

Thanks for everyone's input. It's super helpful. This is a great forum!

Mike