Rocna revealed

FF · Apr 16, 2011

"I wonder if spending three, six times or more for a forged anchor like the Manson Bruce-like compared to a cast Lewmar Bruce-like is worthwhile.

Cast iron is not as strong as forged , but in this case SIZE does count.

If there is a 300% -600%difference in price I would simply get a 75 or 90 instead of a 40 , which if cast well should be as good.

Just don't think the cast 90 will work loaded as your storm hook.

Delfin · Apr 16, 2011

markpierce wrote:*Eric, I had re-read that article earlier today.* I've found even extremely light (like 11-pound) models set quickly but*I've read and been told they*need to be heavier than many other anchors for the same holding capacity.
At this point, I'm not willing to spend the thousands of $$ installing a hawse hole and redoing the windlass, particularly to accommodate an anchor design I'm not enamored with.

While the Danforth types are very efficient for a given weight, they*don't appear to be*very versatile as to their usefulness in some bottom types.* I don't like their having moving parts ready to pinch a body part nor their capacity for bringing up lots of sticky mud.* They also tend to "sail" and not dig in when they move through the water as when*one is attempting to anchor in a strong current.* Also, I'm concerned about*their capability to reset themselves.* I'm willing to "settle" for a heavier, less efficient design avoiding those negatives.

I wonder if spending three,*six*times or more for a*forged anchor like the Manson*Bruce-like compared to a cast Lewmar Bruce-like*is worthwhile.*

*

-- Edited by markpierce on Friday 15th of April 2011 11:36:22 PM

I don't think I've seen a comparison between the Claw and Manson Ray.* Visually, the Ray looks a bit different, but I'm unclear what effect that would have.* Like you Mark, my smaller Bruce anchor (44#) held my 36' well 98% of the time, but the 2% it didn't were real hair raisers.* I think the Practical Sailor test of Ray vs. Rocna vs. Supreme somewhat proves my point in that they were all 100# plus anchors and in that weight range, the Bruce type Ray performed best.* If you've designed the system for a Bruce, just put the biggest one up there you can fit.* While I am happy with my Bruce, I still think the Sarca Excel would be an improvement, especially a big one.*

*

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Nomad Willy · Apr 16, 2011

Carl,

It likely proves they work quite well in 100# size but it says nothing about how well or badly they work in small sizes. But one can't believe much of the tests as they indicate the Danforths and the claws hardly work at all and I'd guess over 50% of all pleasure boats in the US employ one of those anchors. I am/was intrigued by the Ray but it's SO expensive. Really liked the short scope results the test revealed but it's not only another test but done by Manson (as I recall). The claws are the 2nd most popular anchor on fish boats in Alaska and the owner (Cal) of this boat did say "I'll not say it never dragged" but he did say he "really liked it".

PS,**** If 98% performance is'nt good enough for you Carl you're going to be forever dissapointed. How many anchorings did it take to achieve that 98% stat?

Back to the thread subject. If you want a Rocna just get it from someone that will stand behind it and if you already have one

don't worry. Low carbon steel is usually very mallable in that it usually bends a bunch before it breaks. But once it bends like the one on the picture you'll need a new one and bending it back is a bad idea. We've already done that thread.

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 16th of April 2011 12:23:42 PM

sunchaser · Apr 16, 2011

Anchor tests? C'mon guys they are all too often sales gimmicks.* Didn't these Rocna threads of last year start with something like "According to the tests supplied/trumped/published by Rocna -------" Who can say that the Manson "tests" are any*more honest*than the rest?

Just man up and buy a size or two bigger anchor (I still prefer the real Bruce or Manson) and an all chain rode. This is not complicated.

markpierce · Apr 16, 2011

sunchaser wrote:
Just man up and buy a size or two bigger anchor (I still prefer the real Bruce or Manson) and an all chain rode. This is not complicated.

*Some of us are worry*warts and/or like the drama.***

Delfin · Apr 16, 2011

nomadwilly wrote:
Carl,

PS,**** If 98% performance is'nt good enough for you Carl you're going to be forever dissapointed. How many anchorings did it take to achieve that 98% stat?

-- Edited by nomadwilly on Saturday 16th of April 2011 12:23:42 PM

*I guess losing your boat only once every three or four months ain't so bad....

*

Nomad Willy · Apr 16, 2011

Tom wrote:

"Just man up and buy a size or two bigger anchor (I still prefer the real Bruce or Manson) and an all chain rode. This is not complicated."

What on earth does "man up" mean? Sounds like you're think'in we should be through talk'in about anchors. And "this is not complicated" dos'nt sound like a compliment.

Tidahapah · Apr 16, 2011

The Bruce is a good anchor as long as it is about 3000 lb and used as designed as a multiple anchor rig to hold a rig or platform in place.
Your anchor is your first line of insurance and as such deserves the spending of a reasonable amount of cash to ensure you hold during adverse weather conditions.

I anchor up inside lagoons etc in the Great Barrier Reef and sit out fairly heavy weather.
This is the reason that after about 14 years I "maned up" changed my chain up to 1/2 " and installed the new Sarca Excel, it's all about insurance and comfort.

Benn

hollywood8118 · Apr 16, 2011

With all the negative comments regarding the Bruce anchor it is amazing that anyone ever made it through a night hanging off one.** I hung off a 33lb one all night in Tahiti in winds that gusted to over 60kts ( that was the max of the wind knot meter ). I must be the only person that still has confidence in a Bruce, I trusted my life and my life's savings to one... and I have had a number of real Bruce anchors since. I am looking at anchors for my new boat... it has ... horror of all horrors ... a Danforth!

Now that is a anchor I don't trust,

HOLLYWOOD

Nomad Willy · Apr 16, 2011

Ben,

I think the SARCA Excel is probably the best anchor in the world right now. Wish I could buy one at West Marine.

Nomad Willy · Apr 16, 2011

Hollywood,

Maybe you should ask the PO if it is/was any good. Mine sure is. Worked 100% every time I used it.

Carey · Apr 16, 2011

hollywood8118 wrote:
With all the negative comments regarding the Bruce anchor it is amazing that anyone ever made it through a night hanging off one.** I hung off a 33lb one all night in Tahiti in winds that gusted to over 60kts ( that was the max of the wind knot meter ). I must be the only person that still has confidence in a Bruce, I trusted my life and my life's savings to one... and I have had a number of real Bruce anchors since. I am looking at anchors for my new boat... it has ... horror of all horrors ... a Danforth!

Now that is a anchor I don't trust,

HOLLYWOOD

*Hollywood

I have a Bruce, yet can't say I am a Bruce fan. Not because it doesn't hold, but because it is so difficult to get set in packed sand. We have only a 33# Bruce, and I am convinced that it's deficiency is in the inability (as many have said), of the lighter weight Bruce to penetrate and set. Some have even said that a Bruce must be far beyond the weight of my anchor, in fact in the neighborhood of 150#. I don't doubt this. i believe that the Bruce must have a point (I mean a pointed tip) which allows early penetration, much like the Rocna, to allow an easy set. Once set, I don't believe any anchor can equal it's holding ability. This is my final word on anchors. Should anyone come upon an anchor that equals this description, please let me know.*

*

-- Edited by Carey on Saturday 16th of April 2011 10:53:00 PM

RCook · Apr 17, 2011

FWIW, we have anchored maybe 700 nights, mostly on the coast of BC and SE AK, with our genuine Bruce. It's never failed to hold us once properly set, in winds to 45 knots. It resets wonderfully as wind direction changes.

From time to time the bottom is too kelpy for it to dig in, and we realize it right away and reset. In thick grass it just doesn't bite, and in soupy mud like the Chesapeake apparently has (we did find this once in BC) its flukes are too small to hold.

On the whole, the Bruce works for us. That said, I've been thinking 7.5kg is maybe a bit on the small side for our 26-footer, and so have just made the leap to a 10kg Rocna. I have no doubt it will set and hold even better, and I hope it holds together as well. I do notice that the shaft is considerably less hefty than that of the smaller Bruce, which is still like new except for some discoloration.

hollywood8118 · Apr 17, 2011

nomadwilly wrote:
Hollywood,

Maybe you should ask the PO if it is/was any good. Mine sure is. Worked 100% every time I used it.

*We used a danforth years ago... they work very well in sand and mud and if you dont expect a wind/current shift that may unset the anchor, we have always used a danforth as a stern hook and will continue to do so. But, if there is rock,coral,logs, they have a tendency to get caught and then twist like a pretzel.*

Besides on the new go fast boat I want a bright bling bling stainless anchor!

HOLLYWOOD

*

-- Edited by hollywood8118 on Sunday 17th of April 2011 07:26:12 AM

Codger2 · Apr 17, 2011

hollywood8118 wrote:

Besides on the new go fast boat I want a bright bling bling stainless anchor!

I know exactly what you mean.......

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*

Nomad Willy · Apr 17, 2011

Some anchors are beautiful. Polished SS is gorgeous and the Bruce is to some degree a piece of sculpture having a very graceful shape so I always like it when Walt posts pics of his Bruce. Cary thinks perhaps claws suffer from blunt flukes and I have frequently thought the Bruce/claw would benifit from sharper more pointed tips. From pics one of the claws available one has more slender and pointed tips. That anchor brand is Plastimo. Interestingly the most costly and really good performing claw (Manson Ray) is (in my opinion) not as attractive as most or all the others. Beauty dos'nt always follow the form that delivers the function. Carey tends to think sharp flukes play an important part in penetration and I agree. The Fortress has sharp flukes and sets instantly. My pics here are of my new XYZ and it qualifies clearly as having a very sharp and pointed fluke. The saw tooth edges are so sharp I think XYZ is going to need good lawyers. Have'nt tried it yet but will do so in a week or so. Look'in at the thing I don't see how it could fail to set in almost any bottom but who knows how it will deal w getting upside down. But a sharp and pointy tip it has.

markpierce · Apr 17, 2011

I'm sure that XYZ when mounted on the bow will get second looks from onlookers.* (Is there a bow anchor roller to accommodate?) *...* I'd be afraid of being impaled if it was mounted on the deck, however.** ... Wonder if the design will always cause it to be properly oriented for digging into the sea bottom.

One advertising claim is "Will Not Break Out The XYZ Anchor will not break out in deep sand, in most cases, even when overpowered or when angle of pull is changed."* Wonder how difficult it is to intentionally pull up the anchor.

-- Edited by markpierce on Sunday 17th of April 2011 09:54:55 AM

Carey · Apr 17, 2011

nomadwilly wrote:
Some anchors are beautiful. Polished SS is gorgeous and the Bruce is to some degree a piece of sculpture having a very graceful shape so I always like it when Walt posts pics of his Bruce. Cary thinks perhaps claws suffer from blunt flukes and I have frequently thought the Bruce/claw would benifit from sharper more pointed tips. From pics one of the claws available one has more slender and pointed tips. That anchor brand is Plastimo. Interestingly the most costly and really good performing claw (Manson Ray) is (in my opinion) not as attractive as most or all the others. Beauty dos'nt always follow the form that delivers the function. Carey tends to think sharp flukes play an important part in penetration and I agree. The Fortress has sharp flukes and sets instantly. My pics here are of my new XYZ and it qualifies clearly as having a very sharp and pointed fluke. The saw tooth edges are so sharp I think XYZ is going to need good lawyers. Have'nt tried it yet but will do so in a week or so. Look'in at the thing I don't see how it could fail to set in almost any bottom but who knows how it will deal w getting upside down. But a sharp and pointy tip it has.

*Eric

That really is an interesting design. I sure like the point, and I can't see any obvious flaws. Let us know how it works for you.

*

Codger2 · Apr 17, 2011

Carey wrote:nomadwilly wrote:
.... I always like it when Walt posts pics of his Bruce.

___________________________________________________

I appreciate the comment, Eric, but my SS anchor is a "Force" 20kg. I can't comment on its holding performace, however, as I never anchor with it. (It's jewelry only) My anchoring anchor is a 15kg Bruce (not copy) and in the waters I frequent (soft bottoms, sand and mud) it works well. How well? I really can't tell you but like the guy who fell off the Empire State Building, he could be heard saying "so far...so good as he went past the 44th floor.

Force Anchors*

*

*

Codger2 · Apr 17, 2011

I know of no one, on this site, that has studied anchors & anchoring more than NomadWilly. (Eric Henning) His constant pursuit of the perfect anchor is tempered with "not wanting to throw the baby out with the bath water." In other words, while Eric is fascinated with the new designs & often critiques them, he also adheres to some of the older designs because they have a long track record of WORKING! This is a rare trait in a man of his age, as with that age "a resitance to change" is prevalent. Eric has no such resistance.

My hat's* off to you, Eric!

P.S. Let us know how that XYZ works out for you.

dwhatty · Apr 17, 2011

SeaHorse II wrote:Carey wrote:nomadwilly wrote:
.... I always like it when Walt posts pics of his Bruce.

___________________________________________________

Oh, my eyes, my eyes!

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Delfin · Apr 17, 2011

Carey wrote:

That really is an interesting design. I sure like the point, and I can't see any obvious flaws. Let us know how it works for you.

*

*I agree, it is an interesting design.* It has horrible test results and great test results.* It would be good to hear from someone using it in real life.** Keep us posted.

*

sunchaser · Apr 17, 2011

Seahorse

You are absolutely correct. If anybody on this forum can figure out the anchoring stuff, it is Eric. Having met him at THorne Bay, hsi determiantion is evident and he won't put up with a lot of BS. Good traits for sure. As I recall Eric didn't buy into all the Rocna hype of last year either.

Nomad Willy · Apr 17, 2011

Thanks for all the kind words gentlemen. What I lack in extensive anchoring experience like Mr Cook I make up w a lot of interest and am VERY analytical. And no Tom I didn't appear to buy into the Rocna stuff but I did like the anchor and may have bought one. However word was out that the short scope performance was low so I was standoffish and then that Smith guy showed up everywhere and I was turned off more than most. So Smith kept me from buying his own product. Got lucky that time. The XYZ intrigues me a lot and I wasted $300 on the first one and am into the 2nd one $400. So for that brand I'm going to be your personnel anchor tester but some to most of you won't get the XYZ because it's a bit awkward on a bow roller. Most all of you would need the 33#. With the 18lb XYZ I will be hauling it aboard and stowing it aft. I do have the option of slightly modifying the anchor roller and stowing it in the usual place on the bow. But I'm way ahead of myself in that I hav'nt tried it out at all yet. And as Carl points out the test results on XYZ are A+ to E-. One test used an XYZ similar to mine and it failed badly so** .....

Walt,****** I looked at your link to the Force anchors and it led me to Ireland! Did you order your anchor from across the Atlantic? The photos show great promise (in my opinion) as they are visually like the Plastimo. But the Plastimo is available in Seattle. And now that I know some of you guys are actually listening to me I'll need to be more careful what I say. Now I'm more motivated to try the XYZ but It's snowing out there today. And last but very significantly we should all reread what Mr Cook had to say about his VERY EXTENSIVE experience with the Bruce. If we ever get this sorted out it may turn out that ther'es really not much difference between all the anchors. Anyway I'm still intrigued by the anchors and am glad I have some company.

Codger2 · Apr 17, 2011

nomadwilly wrote:
Walt,****** I looked at your link to the Force anchors and it led me to Ireland! Did you order your anchor from across the Atlantic?

******* It was on my birthday, a few years ago when my wife and I were at the San Diego Boat Show. We were in the area of used brokerage boats* and there was this guy sitting in the cockpit of his sport fisher with the force anchor. He had a very crude "For Sale" sign by the anchor and the price attracted me. (Knowing what these polished SS anchors are worth.) I stopped to talk to him and about 20 minutes later I walked off with the anchor. It looks great on my boat and I have had a lot of positive comments on it. But as I stated earlier, it's mainly jewelry & I have no idea if it even works but I

it! *

*

Codger2 · Apr 17, 2011

dwhatty wrote:

___________________________________________________________

Oh, my eyes, my eyes!

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Peter B · Apr 18, 2011

So lets see.* The perfect anchor should be strong, well-designed, functional, and shaped to as to deploy from common bow set-ups.* It should also roll over from any position and set quickly, with minimal liklihood of chain fouling the fluke, and with a sharp point for rapid setting and digging in, thus then presenting as large a fluke area as possible to the substrate it is embedded in when set.* That would suggest it look something like this.....

Super SARCA Anchors
<a href="http://www.anchorright.com.au/sarca/video" target="_blank">http://www.anchorright.com.au/sarca/video
</a>
Meantime, the maker of Sarca, which I suspect is truly the best all-round anchor in the world, is sitting quietly back, letting their owners sell them for him, based on real life use, experience, and word of mouth, while the makers of the wannabes wreck themselves on the rocks of their own egos and miss-information......
Hang in there guys...I think they will be coming, and from a manufacturer near you, in the not too distant future.

-- Edited by Peter B on Monday 18th of April 2011 05:08:16 AM

Delfin · Apr 18, 2011

Peter B wrote:

Meantime, the maker of Sarca, which I suspect is truly the best all-round anchor in the world, is sitting quietly back, letting their owners sell them for him, based on real life use, experience, and word of mouth, while the makers of the wannabes wreck themselves on the rocks of their own egos and miss-information......
Hang in there guys...I think they will be coming, and from a manufacturer near you, in the not too distant future.

-- Edited by Peter B on Monday 18th of April 2011 05:08:16 AM

Hope so.* It would be my first choice as well, at least the Excel would be....

*

Nomad Willy · Apr 18, 2011

Peter,

I think you hit on something w your elements of the perfect anchor. Most all anchors are simply a modified version of an already existing anchor. That's not "design". That's just a refinement of someone else's design. I can do that. You can do that. Anybody can do that. The definition of design is "an organized solution to a problem". An anchor design should be the result of addressing the requirements of a problem such as stated by Peter. It's impossible but the designer should think completely outside the box and not be led down paths of only partial success. Just because the Super Sarca has a shank dos'nt mean he copied anchors w shanks but arrived at the shank all on their own. I think the Super Sarca is close to an original design whereas the Excell is not. That dos'nt mean an anchor has to be a freak to be a good design but if it is an original design arrived at largely out of the box it has a greater potential to be a breakthrough product. This is what I like about the XYZ. It's designed by a DESIGNER who has designed other successful and innovative products. The fact that he has been a boater all his life is a MINOR element of his qualifications as a designer. The first XYZ (see pic) does look a lot like the XYZ I just bought but is significantly different. It's a study in evolution. Also the fact that I hung on one of these original XYZ anchors for a full day and night in 50 knot winds and the little thing (13lbs) held fast. Makes me think if they ever get it right it could be the mother of all anchors. Could even be that now and to think I'm not a gambler.

Steve · Apr 18, 2011

What's the rear view mirror for?

Sorry, couldn't resist the first thought through my mind*when I saw the pic.

Steve W

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