"Fantastic" Holding tank Additive
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ranger58sb
Guru
Dave, is that with "eyes-on" (or even "in") the tank itself? Or just from looking at effluent flow through the sight tube on the pump-out hose?
-Chris
ranger58sb
Guru
Dave, is it still heavier than water when allowed to dissolve in the toilet bowl first? You might remember I've worried about the sound of grinding glass when flushing newly-inserted (not yet dissolved) Noflex through our toilet pump...
-Chris
It doesn't dissolve much -- the coating on the grains are to give it a longer dwell time in your tank and in the sludge in you pipes
With grinder toilets I suggest putting a little TP in the bowl first then the Noflex on top and flush .
You don't need much Noflex after you get things under control a little bit on a regular basis and measurements do not have to be exact.
Most people that have been using the Noflex for a while find that they can reduce the amount greatly, It is not uncommon for a customer to use 4 bottles in a year and the following year only use one for the season.
Guess that's bad for me with sales!
But talking to the happy people that the Noflex has fixed their problems really makes my day. I love it
Someone should start another post about black water and link the "fantastic" to it
OP
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Codger2
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The instructions say to add 2 ounces after each pumpout which is what I do. (40 gallon tank) All I can say is it's the best stuff I've ever tried! For what it's worh, I have vacu-flush fresh water heads.
dhays
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Effluent flow on pump out. Before I started using is I could never get a clear rinse on pump out, even after 4 rinses. After using Noflex, the second rinse was clear. I have only owned the boat for 6 months and I don't think the prior owner ever rinsed after a pump out for the prior 6 years.
ranger58sb
Guru
Thanks, I'll try that. I interpret the "doesn't dissolve much" to mean what I'm seeing as "dissolving" is maybe the coating?
Thanks, useful data point. Can't say ours ever looks very clear, Noflex or not.
-Chris
"Fantastic!" isn't header that would lead me to think it had anything to do with sanitation systems, so I hadn't seen this thread until I receive a PM from someone asking me if I knew anything about "forgetaboutit" with a link to this thread, (which also explains why Dave Stranks sent me an "out-of-the blue" email about "forgetaboutit" a couple of days ago!)
I met the guy who owns the company at a sailboat show in California last spring..."met" is an understatement...he HAUNTED me at the show and buried me under info and sales pitches about the glory of "forgetaboutit" via email afterward, even sent me a bottle. Apparently he does pretty well with it in the RV market, which is not surprising because RV toilets use so little water and the tanks are even more rarely flushed out than marine tanks. And because RV tanks are just dumped out a hole in the bottom, a lot of sludge gets left behind to build up...in fact, RVers have a term--Poop Pyramid--for it...sludge that has a very high concentration of "struvite." (urine crystal) and apparently this stuff does a pretty good job of dissolving those. Not much potential in the marine market though 'cuz marine toilets use a lot more water than RV toilets, so except for VacuFlush owners and and any other boat owners who are determined to use miniscule amounts of flush water, struvites aren't that much of an issue even in hoses, and "forgetaboutit" doesn't accomplish anything that NoFlex or SewClean (which Raritan private labels as C.H. Cleans Hoses) doesn't do a whole lot better.
Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Boat-Odors/dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
I met the guy who owns the company at a sailboat show in California last spring..."met" is an understatement...he HAUNTED me at the show and buried me under info and sales pitches about the glory of "forgetaboutit" via email afterward, even sent me a bottle. Apparently he does pretty well with it in the RV market, which is not surprising because RV toilets use so little water and the tanks are even more rarely flushed out than marine tanks. And because RV tanks are just dumped out a hole in the bottom, a lot of sludge gets left behind to build up...in fact, RVers have a term--Poop Pyramid--for it...sludge that has a very high concentration of "struvite." (urine crystal) and apparently this stuff does a pretty good job of dissolving those. Not much potential in the marine market though 'cuz marine toilets use a lot more water than RV toilets, so except for VacuFlush owners and and any other boat owners who are determined to use miniscule amounts of flush water, struvites aren't that much of an issue even in hoses, and "forgetaboutit" doesn't accomplish anything that NoFlex or SewClean (which Raritan private labels as C.H. Cleans Hoses) doesn't do a whole lot better.
Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Boat-Odors/dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
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Totally safe. However, urine is so corrosive that it turns any metal waste tank into a colander. If he's been using NoFlex when it start to leak--as it inevitably must--his natural inclination will be to blame NoFlex. But it won't matter what he's using, neither NoFlex nor any other tank product can cause or prevent it.
Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Boat-Odors/dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
what_barnacles
Guru
Just an fyi for those that care...
RV'rs flush their tanks like it's a frigging religion. Why? Because if they dont it gets rough in there, and they learn fast. Apparently faster than some boaters? More likely because water is plentiful landside and the vast majority of rv's have flush hookups.
RV toilets as a whole use more water than a boat toilet. Why? Because water is everywhere on land and they (you know, the rv'rs) also know that more water means better tank flushes.
Poop Pyramids are just what you would think, poop build up right below the toilet. Ask my son how he learned that. It is always ALWAYS caused from leaving the black tank open (usually by mistake as the grey tank is routinely left open, but sometimes by ignorance) so that no water can "float the poop". It is not from just dumping out a hole.
As to the product... been plenty of munchers sold over the years to RV'rs, you just need to try them and see if they perform to what you need. There are good ones out there.
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." I agree 100%
Please don't use Noflex with a aluminum tank.
What Peggie said about it is --100% right
Noooooo.... What part of "totally safe" didn't you understand??? One more time <sigh>:
NoFlex IS safe to use in an aluminum tank or any other tank material.
Urine is so corrosive that it will turn ANY metal tank--even 316 SS--into a colander, no matter what's used in the tank or how often the tank is pumped and rinsed. Typically the first leak is a weld--a seam or a fitting in 2 years...and develop pinholes in the bottom within 10 years.
BUT... when the owner of a metal waste tank who who doesn't know that and hasn't experienced any problems YET switches to a new product--any new product--his natural instinct will be to blame that product when the first inevitable leak shows up. He'd be wrong...it would have happened no matter what he's using, even if he isn't using anything in the tank.
So if the product your friend is using in his tank isn't working tell him that NoFlex IS safe to use in his aluminum tank. (You might also consider recommend my book to him
)
Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Boat-Odors/dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
What Peggie said about it is --100% right
Noooooo.... What part of "totally safe" didn't you understand??? One more time <sigh>:
NoFlex IS safe to use in an aluminum tank or any other tank material.
Urine is so corrosive that it will turn ANY metal tank--even 316 SS--into a colander, no matter what's used in the tank or how often the tank is pumped and rinsed. Typically the first leak is a weld--a seam or a fitting in 2 years...and develop pinholes in the bottom within 10 years.
BUT... when the owner of a metal waste tank who who doesn't know that and hasn't experienced any problems YET switches to a new product--any new product--his natural instinct will be to blame that product when the first inevitable leak shows up. He'd be wrong...it would have happened no matter what he's using, even if he isn't using anything in the tank.
So if the product your friend is using in his tank isn't working tell him that NoFlex IS safe to use in his aluminum tank. (You might also consider recommend my book to him
)Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Boat-Odors/dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
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RV toilets as a whole use more water than a boat toilet. Why? Because water is everywhere on land and they (you know, the rv'rs) also know that more water means better tank flushes.
I won't argue that RVers may use more water than boaters, but most RV TOILETS are designed to use far less (which, along with a much lower price than marine toilets, makes 'em popular among a lot of houseboat (those floating mobile homes on barge hulls or pontoons) owners on "no discharge" inland lakes. Most marine toilets use about 2 liters/flush. Dometic (formerly SeaLand) RV toilets--one of the most popular--only need a pint or two...just enough to rinse the bowl as the contents slide down the "trap door." Most others don't need a lot more. As a consequence "struvite" (urine crystals) buildup is a much bigger problem in RV tanks than it is in marine tanks...and even religiously flushing the tank with ONLY water may not remove it.
I won't argue that RVers may use more water than boaters, but most RV TOILETS are designed to use far less (which, along with a much lower price than marine toilets, makes 'em popular among a lot of houseboat (those floating mobile homes on barge hulls or pontoons) owners on "no discharge" inland lakes. Most marine toilets use about 2 liters/flush. Dometic (formerly SeaLand) RV toilets--one of the most popular--only need a pint or two...just enough to rinse the bowl as the contents slide down the "trap door." Most others don't need a lot more. As a consequence "struvite" (urine crystals) buildup is a much bigger problem in RV tanks than it is in marine tanks...and even religiously flushing the tank with ONLY water may not remove it.
Lou_tribal
Guru
Ok I am a newbie so bare with me for my ignorance, but in the same time without being a physician and without going into details I got some chemistry course.
Urine pH is, normally, for people without particular decease, between 6 and 8. Considering that a pH of 7 is neutral this means that human urine is ranging from slightly acide to slightly basic. Morevover considering that on average a human being feels the need to pee when his bladder contains 250ml of urine, so let suppose that when an average human being is going to pee he will deliver 500ml of urine (twice as much as when he feels the need), and the toilet will add 2L of water when flushed, this will result in a dilution by a factor 4 of the acid/base of the urine. So in summary after having flushed your toilet the liquid sent in the tank will have an average pH ranging from approximately 6.5 to 7.5.
In conclusion I won't say that urine is so corrosive that it can melt a stainless steel plate.
But I may be wrong so in that case please pardon me.
I'm very confused why you'd say not to use Noflex with an aluminum tank.
I don't know enough about acidity of urine to get into a discussion of that issue, but it seems to me aluminum tanks can develop leaks for many reasons. There are also hundreds of aluminum alloys and thicknesses and methods of construction and I know all those factors come into play.
I'm very confused why you'd say not to use Noflex with an aluminum tank.
I didn't....Sea Q misread my post. Apparently you haven't read my reply to him (post #45).
I don't know enough about acidity of urine to get into a discussion of that issue... ...but it seems to me aluminum tanks can develop leaks for many reasons. There are also hundreds of aluminum alloys and thicknesses and methods of construction and I know all those factors come into play.
Then I suggest you research them, 'cuz this isn't news, and I don't understand why it's suddenly become an issue with y'all because it's long been well known that urine is highly corrosive...as this post to a pet forum by a chemist illustrates:
"We used to have a problem in the UK with dogs peeing against steel lampposts. They left a ring of corrosion around the post and unless it was regularly painted, the lamppost would ultimately fall down. This was overcome by going to concrete posts... "
Of course the thicker the walls and the stronger the welds, the longer it will take. However, both mild and stainless steel are just as vulnerable to urine as aluminum.
When it first became necessary in the early '80s for boat builders to install holding tanks, 99% of 'em were aluminum...by the early '90s all but a few holdouts had switched to plastic for waste holding and the recommended material for waste holding tanks had become seamless rotomolded polyethylene. However, aluminum and steel are still considered acceptable water tank materials.
Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Boat-Odors/dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
I didn't....Sea Q misread my post. Apparently you haven't read my reply to him (post #45).
I don't know enough about acidity of urine to get into a discussion of that issue... ...but it seems to me aluminum tanks can develop leaks for many reasons. There are also hundreds of aluminum alloys and thicknesses and methods of construction and I know all those factors come into play.
Then I suggest you research them, 'cuz this isn't news, and I don't understand why it's suddenly become an issue with y'all because it's long been well known that urine is highly corrosive...as this post to a pet forum by a chemist illustrates:
"We used to have a problem in the UK with dogs peeing against steel lampposts. They left a ring of corrosion around the post and unless it was regularly painted, the lamppost would ultimately fall down. This was overcome by going to concrete posts... "
Of course the thicker the walls and the stronger the welds, the longer it will take. However, both mild and stainless steel are just as vulnerable to urine as aluminum.
When it first became necessary in the early '80s for boat builders to install holding tanks, 99% of 'em were aluminum...by the early '90s all but a few holdouts had switched to plastic for waste holding and the recommended material for waste holding tanks had become seamless rotomolded polyethylene. However, aluminum and steel are still considered acceptable water tank materials.
Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Boat-Odors/dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
I wasn't saying I was confused by anything you said. I wrote it to him and said I was confused about why he'd say it. Yes, I read your post #45. I understood your first post. You said it was the urine, and not Noflex. So, my question remains of him. He stated not to use Noflex in aluminum. You're the one who needs to read my post including who I was addressing. Don't get offended when I wasn't even addressing you with my question. I remain very confused why, when he erroneously thought you said not to use Noflex, he said not to use it.
As to not knowing about the acidity of urine. I didn't argue one way or another, just said I didn't know, so I'm not offering an opinion on who is right or wrong in the great urine debate. I also stated there were many different installations based on materials and methods and likely many reasons aluminum tanks leak, not just one. As to researching the chemistry of urine further, I really have no desire to do so.
P.S. I also don't know why any builders use aluminum for holding tanks.
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danderer
Guru
I tried Noflex last year and had no particular luck with it. My problem wasn't sludge but rather odor generated in a very poorly ventilated tank. Noflex didn't seem to do much of anything.
Yeah, I know the real fix is better ventilation. Someday.
ranger58sb
Guru
Sometimes the problem is actually from a loose fitting or some such, perhaps even a permeated hose (the cause many immediately jump to, valid or not).
FWIW, I'd guess our tank is likely as poorly ventilated as yours (single vent hose, and with a filter) but we don't have any holding tank odor.
-Chris
danderer
Guru
Good and valid point. Sorry I wasn't real clear. There is no odor in the boat, but don't stand downwind of the boat when someone flushes.
And it really isn't that big a problem. When we're onboard we pump out every 3 days or so. No odor problems. But if we haven't been onboard for a week or two and the tank has just set...
I was hoping that Noflex would be a magic bullet. C'est la vie.
The only way for anyone to determine if product "A" is better than product "B" or "C" would be to set up several models of their boat's holding tank, vent, etc. and then pour the same amount of identical sewage into each tank along with the treatment product (following the manufacturer's directions), sloshing each tank the same number of times (to simulate being in the boat) and then analyze the results.
Reading the advertising, every product is superior to all others. Obviously, this cannot be the case.
BTW: If you have a raw water flush system, that can be the cause of the odor. Dead and dried up organisms from the flush water. The way to tell is, the odor will be inside the boat, not outside. Chemicals won't fix this. A filter or screen on the intake might.
Reading the advertising, every product is superior to all others. Obviously, this cannot be the case.
BTW: If you have a raw water flush system, that can be the cause of the odor. Dead and dried up organisms from the flush water. The way to tell is, the odor will be inside the boat, not outside. Chemicals won't fix this. A filter or screen on the intake might.
The only way for anyone to determine if product "A" is better than product "B" or "C" would be to set up several models of their boat's holding tank, vent, etc. and then pour the same amount of identical sewage into each tank along with the treatment product (following the manufacturer's directions), sloshing each tank the same number of times (to simulate being in the boat) and then analyze the results.
Not a valid test because sloshing only pushes air out the vent...whether that air stinks not depends on whether a product can work in that tank. Oxygen is the real key to eliminating holding tank odor--odor out the vent. A product that works beautifully in aerobic conditions, will be less effective or won't work at all in a tank that isn't well enough ventilated to be aerobic. At least one product--Odorlos-- Odorlos does a pretty job in tanks that don't have quite enough ventilation for bio-active tank products to work...the active ingredient is nitrates, which promote oxygen release from organic matter. Based on what I'm hearing from a LOT of boat owners, NoFlex seems to work very well in almost any conditions. So the only valid test of holding tank products is how well it works in your tank.
If you have a raw water flush system, that can be the cause of the odor. Dead and dried up organisms from the flush water. The way to tell is, the odor will be inside the boat, not outside. Chemicals won't fix this. A filter or screen on the intake might.
Because flushing the toilet brings the stagnant sea water only into the toilet bowl, sea water intake odor will be confined to the HEAD, not inside of the whole boat.It also only occurs when the toilet is flushed for the first time after the boat has sat for several days and only lasts long enough for the first few flushes to clear all the stagnant sea water out of the intake line, pump and channel in the rim of the bowl A strainer--never a filter--will prevent animal or vegetable sea life from getting to the pump, but it won't remove the micro-organisms in sea water that die, decay and stink. Being able to flush the sea water out of the intake, pump and channel in the rim of the bowl before the boat will sit is the only way to eliminate intake odor, and is actually fairly easy to set up on most boats.
Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Boat-Odors/dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
Not a valid test because sloshing only pushes air out the vent...whether that air stinks not depends on whether a product can work in that tank. Oxygen is the real key to eliminating holding tank odor--odor out the vent. A product that works beautifully in aerobic conditions, will be less effective or won't work at all in a tank that isn't well enough ventilated to be aerobic. At least one product--Odorlos-- Odorlos does a pretty job in tanks that don't have quite enough ventilation for bio-active tank products to work...the active ingredient is nitrates, which promote oxygen release from organic matter. Based on what I'm hearing from a LOT of boat owners, NoFlex seems to work very well in almost any conditions. So the only valid test of holding tank products is how well it works in your tank.
If you have a raw water flush system, that can be the cause of the odor. Dead and dried up organisms from the flush water. The way to tell is, the odor will be inside the boat, not outside. Chemicals won't fix this. A filter or screen on the intake might.
Because flushing the toilet brings the stagnant sea water only into the toilet bowl, sea water intake odor will be confined to the HEAD, not inside of the whole boat.It also only occurs when the toilet is flushed for the first time after the boat has sat for several days and only lasts long enough for the first few flushes to clear all the stagnant sea water out of the intake line, pump and channel in the rim of the bowl A strainer--never a filter--will prevent animal or vegetable sea life from getting to the pump, but it won't remove the micro-organisms in sea water that die, decay and stink. Being able to flush the sea water out of the intake, pump and channel in the rim of the bowl before the boat will sit is the only way to eliminate intake odor, and is actually fairly easy to set up on most boats.
Peggie
http://www.amazon.com/New-Get-Rid-Boat-Odors/dp/1892399784/
"If you can't explain it to a six year old, you don't completely understand it yourself." --Albert Einstein
ranger58sb
Guru
Ah. FWIW, our vent filter seems to take care of that pretty well. We've only had to replace it once overy 2-3 years or so... but it tells us when that's necessary. (Er... actually, our neighbors sometimes give us the heads-up first...)
-Chris
I also don't know why any builders use aluminum for holding tanks.
99% of 'em no longer do. They didn't know any better for the first 10 years...aluminum and steel had always been acceptable material for water tanks, so they knew of no reason to use anything else to hold sewage. The few that still do use aluminum do so because it's the least expensive material and the boat will be long out of warranty before the tank starts to leak so it won't be their problem (that doesn't only apply to holding tanks btw...which explains why so much OEM equipment on production boats is the cheapest available.
99% of 'em no longer do. They didn't know any better for the first 10 years...aluminum and steel had always been acceptable material for water tanks, so they knew of no reason to use anything else to hold sewage. The few that still do use aluminum do so because it's the least expensive material and the boat will be long out of warranty before the tank starts to leak so it won't be their problem (that doesn't only apply to holding tanks btw...which explains why so much OEM equipment on production boats is the cheapest available.
There use to be a thought in computers that it wasn't the name on the outside that was important, it was the components, knowing whose board, whose drives and which ones. In fact, Compaq had huge issues at one time with dealers putting drives other than those Compaq used into their computers and those drives performing poorly.
While the hull and structure of the boat is important, you're right that much of the equipment is. Simple things like fuel tanks, water tanks, holding tanks. Electronics is obvious, but wiring, piping, drains, alarms, bilge pumps, filters. While many of the items are easily identified and replaced, others are not or we choose not to replace them. There are some quality builders you can be assured use quality equipment and parts. Others who use none of quality. Then most are somewhere in between. On a used boat it's complicated by whether the PO upgraded or downgraded when replacing.
Our most recent boat purchase was from what I would consider an upper mid level quality builder and a production boat although choices on many items. However, after it's delivery, and before setting out on a long cruise, we replaced the searchlights, washer/dryer, mattresses and towels and all light bulbs throughout the boat. Searchlight, mattresses and towels were simply personal preference. However, washer/dryer was for a significantly better performing unit and light bulbs, just don't know why they'd deliver a new boat today without all LED.
We have been using Forget About It for more than a year now (we have 2 Vacuflush heads). The thing I noticed after a couple of pumpout cycles was that apparently sludge had built up over the years in our 37-year old 60-gallon holding tank. While we don't have a gauge, we did notice a difference in how much we pumped out and that the tank lasted a few more days than before. Anecdotal, I know. But that's our experience with the product. We like it and will continue to use it. (We also sprayed it in a smelly bilge and it completely eliminated the odor.)
OP
OP
Codger2
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Very similar experience.
Before: After pump out two lights appeared indicating tank was ¼ full.
Now: After pump out, 1 light appears, indicating tank is empty. What's different? Sludge has decreased/disappeared and no solids visible in sight glass on pump out hose (liquid only) We have no holding tank odor & we go longer between pump outs.
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