Forum advice liability

So long as you receive no compensation for your "advise", unless you go out of your way maliciously and intent to cause harm can be proven, no way do I see advise freely offered to be "actionable".

As for clueless advise, we all know there are plenty of that online and I think you as a professional are thinking of the same reasons why most of us in the industry stay away from these forums. Not only the liability aspect of it, but also how well intended posts can be deformed.....
I used to offer a lot of advise online all over the place for the last 2 decades, but then got a very bad taste in the mouth about it when the clueless ones chime in with their opinions on what they did not get in the post. For me, it took a while to learn that...
The same reason why so many businesses in smaller communities stay away from social media - clueless little people feeling big, with punching fingers on a PC, can cause a lot of harm to a business in a small town or online for that matter!
So, now, I have learned to enjoy these forums for fun of some topics but to stay away from getting involved in anything technical or dealing with any aspect of the marine industry as a whole.

What is TOS... sorry....

"It's funny how people without credentials always want to argue about the worthlessness of credentials. You go ahead and hire a burger tosser if it makes you happy. Just don't complain when it bites you in the a.."
Could not have said it better myself!

Sealife said:

OK, I'm back. Wow we have come around quite a bit. So now credentials are good, unless they are mine!.

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Huh? What have your credentials got to do with anything?



For my part, I've been trying to walk an almost neutral line between credentials are useful... or not. Neither good nor bad, by themselves. I think situation dependent. Person/personality dependent. Issue-at-hand dependent.

And an OK starting place, if there's no better alternative known to be available.

Some with credentials are likely experts. Some, not so much.

Some without credentials are likely experts. Some (probably many more), not so much.

Depends.

-Chris

Same in all professions.

You can go to a Doc that graduated at the bottom of the class.
or
You can go to a Doc that never bothered to go med school.

I know where I start to look.

Capt. Joe said:

What is TOS... sorry....

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http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/misc.php?do=sknetwork&page=tos

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/misc.php?do=sknetwork&page=rules

Both located at the bottom of every page.

Taking the view of someone hiring or engaging people to do work for me. I will not consider those without the basic credentials in their field. It can be a certification from Cummins or a license or a degree. It varies by field. Then I look for the best among those who do have the credentials.

So, do I ever make exceptions. Yes. Some very standard wording we use to include in job requirements in cases where there was no legal requirement. X Degree or Equivalent in experience. Y license or equivalent.

Now, i'm not going to run and hire the first captain with a 100 Ton Master, but I'm not going to hire someone to be a captain who has no license. I'm also not going to hire the person who has been running boats for 20 years but only has a 6-Pack. Typically for a captain position I'd expect someone who has years of experience to have more than a 100 Ton Master. However, I know a 100 Ton Master who chose to run smaller boats and has 100 Ton because he's never gotten the Sea Time on larger, but knows as much about small boats as anyone you'd see. I know captains who never leave US waters and have no plans to so aren't getting a STCW endorsement.

If it's required by law I'll require the credential. If not required by law, I'll still look for it and want it, but might make an exception in rare cases.

I think you might reconsider your bedside manner. Tooting your horn to an audience which you label a portion as clueless idiots and including a link to your web site where you are shilling for donations is pretty poor form.

Credentials are great but they are not a club to get your way. If you have something important to say take your time and explain it well and provide references from your experience to reinforce your position. With experience comes understanding. Helping folks to reach understanding without having to suffer the experience can take a little time.

Forums are a great place to learn, share and practice communicating with people constructively. There is a lot of understanding in a place like this to be had. I come to be schooled frequently. Invaluable...

Sealife said:

Just wondering about the liability involved with giving "advice" online. Being a surveyor and ABYC certified master tech, I see way too many "contributors" without a clue. Wouldn't be hard to go back in the event of a loss and prove who the contributor was. Is there a blanket disclaimer when you join these forums stating such? I just get tired of arguing with clueless idiots, and give up.

Unfortunately most people looking for advice do so because they are trying to save a buck, and the cheapest/easiest suggestions always seem to be taken.

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I look at forums as a place to get info that is valuable that is almost impossible to find in books.

Most people know they can go buy a book or hire a pro....but knowing that there are perfectly suitable alternatives to that one person's view can be invaluable.

psneeld said:

I look at forums as a place to get info that is valuable that is almost impossible to find in books.

Most people know they can go buy a book or hire a pro....but knowing that there are perfectly suitable alternatives to that one person's view can be invaluable.

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Actually this forum in particular is amazing because a certain segment of society (trawler owners) inhabit this forum. Chances are you can talk directly a person who either has or had the exact same model boat you have or are interested in. Or has done exactly what you are trying to accomplish.

That is allowing for the 'clueless ones' who do google searches and post their results here. That's a funny comment. Almost all of the posts on this forum are (IMHO) a direct result of personal experience. One wonders where the original idea for that came from? I'm guessing a bad week of business perhaps?

Don't forget, post #1 also linked the clueless with those seeking cheap ways to get things done.

But I did read it here, 99% of boat surveyors should be drummed out of business. Initially I found this an odd statement.

After doing some serious boat shopping the past few weeks and hearing the same recommended surveyor's names coming up time and again from the non clueless, 99% may be close to reality. And yes, I am cheap and looking for that diamond in the rough.

cappy208 said:

Actually this forum in particular is amazing because a certain segment of society (trawler owners) inhabit this forum. Chances are you can talk directly a person who either has or had the exact same model boat you have or are interested in. Or has done exactly what you are trying to accomplish.

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What sets this forum apart, in my opinion, and the reason we're here, is that people here actually cruise in their powerboats. This isn't a forum of boat owners, but one of boat users. Therefore, they can share things on many levels. One is technical. Another is lifestyle. Another is cruising locations. Another is selecting a boat. It goes on and one. I think "trawler" was a convenient title for the forum and goes to the type interest in boating far more than to the type boat. There are many trawler type boats here, but many others as well. The real benefit here is to me a community of people who enjoy getting in their boat and going from point A to point B and on.

I think of it much like it's brother, Cruiser's Forum, but power boats only. It is "Powerboat Cruising Forum" in many ways. Many here have come from sailboats, some still own sailboats, but they discuss power boating topics here. Some forums also include a wealth of knowledge but don't have people who are actually using their boats regularly.

BandB,

Very good points, and would also suspect that this group is made up with a lot of experience, that have aged a bit... lots of retired folks and financially independent folks. Would suspect a much higher percentage of entrepreneurs and folks that are financially successful.

While probably not a really wealthy crowd, it does take a few dollars and financial independence to own and travel around on a boat. And with that comes experience.

I'd bet one could post about most any subject and there would be someone here with experience.

cappy208 said:

Somehow I think you don't understand that a USCG license does't impress? 100 tons is an entry level license. With a one week course, and little documentation as a base. I have tossed 100 ton masters off the wheel.... many times. Just as many times I have had OS ordinary seaman who are extraordinary in performance.

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I just dropped in on this thread and have not gone all the way to the end. After reading this I just had to respond. Somehow I do not think you understand anything about licenses at all. First 100 ton is not an entry ticket and it does require more than a weekend course! Entry would be a six pack to be legal for hire in an un-inspected vessel.

100 ton It does require a minimum of 730 documented sea days!
Requires passing several test written and oral.
Endorsements require further testing.
Every 5 years the requirements start all over again.

Tonnage has nothing to do with weight. If you were a licensed captain you would know that. There are many 150's plus boats run by 100 ton captains working the oil fields in heavy seas off loading men and equipment within inches of oil rig legs via gantries which is dangerous work! Something you obviously have never done!

So please spare me on the entry level BS as that is insulting to some of us 100rd tons who have!

Have a nice day

In Ontario Canada we have in excess of some 200 "surveyors" printing cards as such.
Less than a dozen of us, about 5% of them, do 99% of the work.

I truly believe that we should be regulated and I don't mind voicing my opinion; there is a need for consumer protection in our industry!

Thanks for this, I myself wanted to correct him but I didn't trust myself because of the language I wanted to use regarding the crap he wrote about it being "entry level"........

For those fortunate enough to be married I know who my expert is and the advice is always spot on ... From a conceptual perspective anyway ...

Maybe "lower level" was the more proper terminology.

But having taught up through 100 ton....the documentation of sea time is a joke and the rest is bookwork/test taking. Hopefully the USCG weeds out the really FOS applicants.

Like many have posted, it's not just the license, it what a person has done with it , what supplemental education has been acquired, and probably the most important of all...the integrity of that master.

Even the best have drunk themselves to bums and the newest of all been the hero for a day.

Seevee said:

BandB,

Very good points, and would also suspect that this group is made up with a lot of experience, that have aged a bit... lots of retired folks and financially independent folks. Would suspect a much higher percentage of entrepreneurs and folks that are financially successful.

While probably not a really wealthy crowd, it does take a few dollars and financial independence to own and travel around on a boat. And with that comes experience.

I'd bet one could post about most any subject and there would be someone here with experience.

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Wealthy is a matter of relativity and compared to the vast majority of the world, everyone here is wealthy. Just being able to own a boat puts them on the upper side.

It's been amusing to watch this discussion. It points out to me the huge difference between crowd sourcing based on personal experience versus crowd sourcing based on "here's what I think".

I'll just throw out a couple of things I know about with regard to liability...

There have been multiple lawsuits based on information entered in forums over the last decade or so. It doesn't take that much Google'ing to find that it has even happened in the boating world. SailingAnarchy went through a nasty lawsuit when one of their members sued the forum itself. While terms of service (TOS) agreements along with the 1996 Communications Act, Section 230 protects many types of websites from liability, it is often the case that moderators and owners of the forums break their own TOS often and put the site in a situation of liability. I see that happen here all the time.

In most cases, lawsuits have resulted from false statements or "opinions" that caused damage to the reputation of an individual or company. That type of thing happens over and over on forums including this one. Just this thread has brought up the issue when some people were offended by credentials, etc. Let it annoy someone enough and you'll see what happens - something to think about when making a claim about what some business or individual does without having the actual facts about it.

And if you think you're anonymous here, you're surely not anonymous from any court action.

Jeffrey S said:

It's been amusing to watch this discussion. It points out to me the huge difference between crowd sourcing based on personal experience versus crowd sourcing based on "here's what I think".

I'll just throw out a couple of things I know about with regard to liability...

There have been multiple lawsuits based on information entered in forums over the last decade or so. It doesn't take that much Google'ing to find that it has even happened in the boating world. SailingAnarchy went through a nasty lawsuit when one of their members sued the forum itself. While terms of service (TOS) agreements along with the 1996 Communications Act, Section 230 protects many types of websites from liability, it is often the case that moderators and owners of the forums break their own TOS often and put the site in a situation of liability. I see that happen here all the time.

In most cases, lawsuits have resulted from false statements or "opinions" that caused damage to the reputation of an individual or company. That type of thing happens over and over on forums including this one. Just this thread has brought up the issue when some people were offended by credentials, etc. Let it annoy someone enough and you'll see what happens - something to think about when making a claim about what some business or individual does without having the actual facts about it.

And if you think you're anonymous here, you're surely not anonymous from any court action.

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There was a case some years ago that involved boating fatalities. The estate sued the boat mfg. the yacht broker, the marina, the generator mfg. (CO poisoning) and the surveyor. The surveyor spent 300k over three years defending himself and was dropped from the proceeding the day of trial ( he had properly pointed out the issue in his report).
No refund on his 300k You don't have to be wrong to lose your shirt.

psneeld said:

Maybe "lower level" was the more proper terminology.

But having taught up through 100 ton....the documentation of sea time is a joke and the rest is bookwork/test taking. Hopefully the USCG weeds out the really FOS applicants.

Like many have posted, it's not just the license, it what a person has done with it , what supplemental education has been acquired, and probably the most important of all...the integrity of that master.

Even the best have drunk themselves to bums and the newest of all been the hero for a day.

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Here are the first two in a series of articles MPT is publishing on Education and Training. I found most interesting the discussion of mentoring. Here we discuss it in terms of getting a training captain. For most here, it might be a friend or acquaintance we learn from. For others here it was someone or many they worked with.

Training vs. Education - Part 1
News - MPT | Maritime Professional Training

Training vs. Education - Part 2
News - MPT | Maritime Professional Training

You mention documentation of sea time and integrity although not together, but you're right about documentation of sea time in that it's really how honest you and anyone signing for you are. They do catch if you declare 30 days in a month on two different boats, but otherwise it's up to people to be honest. More than that, it's the quality of sea time. Were you pushed to learn? Did you work hard to increase your skill? Or were you just riding along? Did you really work at least 4 hours? Or did you work only three and still record it as a day? And one place that I've heard people argue, is time anchored or at a dock. We've never recorded sea time on a day we weren't underway, defined by us as actually moving in the boat. Others have stretched the definition of underway radically to meet their needs.

It's like anything though. It's the effort you put into learning. It's the quality of training you get. I use to speak one day a year to a class of college senior accounting and business students. The subject was to tell them that they really had learned nothing yet, just established a base on which to learn. The things they'd seen in text books, they'd never see again in exactly the same way out in the real world. The way businesses worked in theory was not how they'd find they really worked. So, the key was adapting and continuing to learn.

Everyone here has been exposed to different aspects of boating. Psneeld knows rescue better than anyone else I know. Others here know the commercial world of boats. Even in it, the various segments are quite different from each other. Some here are "yacht" captains. Like most professions with many different segments, many are convinced theirs is the hardest, they are the "best" and most qualified. I'll offer the opinion that again they all have a basis for learning more but most would initially be far short of excellence if suddenly in a different segment. I've seen the arguments between commercial captains and yacht captains. They are totally different jobs. Operating the boats is very similar, managing them not at all the same.

We shouldn't put down any group of professionals even if their level of license or experience is less than ours. Likewise we shouldn't elevate ourselves too far or as Bill Parcells use to say "anoint ourselves." Whoever you are, you know more than some, but there are others who know more than you.

boatpoker said:

There was a case some years ago that involved boating fatalities. The estate sued the boat mfg. the yacht broker, the marina, the generator mfg. (CO poisoning) and the surveyor. The surveyor spent 300k over three years defending himself and was dropped from the proceeding the day of trial ( he had properly pointed out the issue in his report).
No refund on his 300k You don't have to be wrong to lose your shirt.

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Can you be sued? Common question. Answer is always, "yes." Anyone can be sued over anything. The cost of defending even the most frivolous suit can be very substantial. There are people who make a living out of suing. There was one person in Charlotte NC who had filed thousands of suits. Many were tossed out, he lost others, but he won many in small claims court where the other party failed to show and more often he won small settlements from companies wanting to save money. A common practice of him was to sue a Minnesota, New York or Washington headquartered company in NC. The cost of appearing exceeded what he was suing for.

My business attorney (for 30 years) and longtime friend: Anybody can be sued for anything anytime.

Me (to attorney): If I did everything you told me to do, I wouldn't be in business.

I will continue to read, evaluate, and sometimes take advice from TF. On the rare occasion that I feel I have something useful to contribute, I will. I ain't skeered!

@Capt. And Capt:

Perhaps I used a poor choice of words. However the description IS accurate. There's an old saying: (but put into current PC terms) "The License doesn't make the Person; The Person makes the License." Think JFK jr. He was fully licensed, IFR qualified and flew his piper right into the Atlantic inverted. Completely avoidable. But he lacked one thing. Realization that there is a difference between being confident and being competent. He was completely confident he was qualified. But he was incompetent at the task. ( but he DID have the certification!). Where I think the injustice was: He did this and killed two others in the process.

The OP came on this forum insulting and denigrating the users, the respondents and the concept of the validity of the forum. When questioned he opted to back his opinion up with letters. USCG, nams, ABYC, 100 ton, surveyor, Captain. Etc etc etc.

It has been my experience over the last 34 years that I have been licensed that when someone jumps on a soapbox and starts crowing about their CV they have lost the argument. Probably lost credibility and definitely are shut down by me.

My industry has the limitations of 'crossovers' (people coming from yacht or ships). They can't just come on and drive the boat. Although I didn't initially like it, the company I work for will NOT hire a Mate without checking them out on three separate boats by three separate Captains. And they NEVER hire a Captain off the street. Insurance won't allow it. Too many guys have come through the door slinging a line of horse ship causing hundreds of thousands of damage. Specifically; I don't need a deckhand (with a license) coming aboard acting like they're all top dog. Hubris has its advantages. Don't tell me how good you are.... show me! (Of course I don't actually say that, if a guy doesn't know it, that's one strike!). I encourage everyone to take a turn behind the wheel. I let ANYONE come up and steer. But if someone doesn't 'get' it, I make no bones or apologies for taking over and correcting. The toughest people to acclimate to the wheelhouse are 100 ton guys who only have yacht experience. Period. Although I came from T boats, I started on yachts and Ferrys at 11. Unlearning 'small boat' mindset is tough. Actually 're-learning' is a more appropriate term. (Like the bigger it is, the easier it is to handle or you don't need to use rudder when twin screwing). From my experience the larger it is the further out (both in time and distance) you have to anticipate, to plan ahead to allow for 'plan B'. (Always have a plan B). Try fending off a 50'er during an on the dock breeze landing while a 'newbie' is at the helm or compared to landing 32'er. Now try that with 300' or 500' out front.

Jon. I tried the 'patch' out in the middle '80's. Pay is too wild. I picked a more stable work environment. About 12 guys from my company fled to the GOM in this last high grade wage jump. I had one of them telling me I could make $900 a day. They're ALL laid off now. They left to make 'the big bucks'. Now they are having a hard time getting a job.

cappy208 said:

Now try that with 300' or 500' out front.

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that must be another forum

Sealife said:

Just wondering about the liability involved with giving "advice" online... Unfortunately most people looking for advice do so because they are trying to save a buck.

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caltexflanc said:

Anyone who relies solely on anonymous, no accountability, crowd-sourced information to make a decision is a fool.

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Wow, what's with all the hostility?? The TF is just a place to share info, opinions, experience, enjoy friendly arguments and make friends (I made a new one here in Qatar from TF!). When a guy inquires and then decides to bring along 600ft of rode for his trip to Alaska, does that make him a fool??

The other thing that is really apparent, having lived overseas in many countries for the last decade, is how sad the part of America's culture is when it comes "liability, lawsuits, etc." It's a very sad state of affairs and I doubt the Founding Fathers ever envisioned this. Sorta like the Patriot Act and heightened awareness, there is no going back at this point.

I heard a statistic once that 80% of all attorneys on Earth live in America, and 80% of all attorneys in America live in California.

Oh well.

makobuilders said:

The other thing that is really apparent, having lived overseas in many countries for the last decade, is how sad the part of America's culture is when it comes "liability, lawsuits, etc." It's a very sad state of affairs and I doubt the Founding Fathers ever envisioned this. Sorta like the Patriot Act and heightened awareness, there is no going back at this point.

I heard a statistic once that 80% of all attorneys on Earth live in America, and 80% of all attorneys in America live in California.

Oh well.

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Are you running for office now in creating statistics? You heard? Where? From whom?

Do we have too many suits? Yes. However, we have the ability to seek to have a wrong righted. However, this is by no means limited to the US. I've done business throughout the world and each country has it's own rules which lead to attorneys and court cases.

There is abuse of the court systems in every country. However, the fact that companies are held accountable for products they produce that harm people and that they knew were harming people is something that has benefited us all greatly. The largest product liability suits have all been products that were proved and known to cause death. Should there be no recourse for people who lose family members due to product defects? Now, I do believe there should be limits but if there were then I'm not sure the penalties would be adequate to protect. It is the huge potential claims that help hold companies accountable.

This has nothing to do with liability of what is done on line. That's an entirely new world and the reason it is so scrambled is that it's an arena not anticipated by existing laws. I don't think free advice on a forum carries liability unless it was extreme and intentional and known to lead to something serious. However, some internet activity does need to be controlled and some actions treated as criminal. Cyber bullying is a real issue. There has to be some accountability. If I come on line making up lies, I know to be lies, about my competitor and doing so under many different names, I should be held accountable. I don't think that exists on this forum, but there have been personal vendettas raged on sites that have reviews and ratings and they've been very harmful.

OK, enough of that. I'm back to posting normally and don't feel that I'm at risk in so doing.

makobuilders said:

I heard a statistic once that 80% of all attorneys on Earth live in America, and 80% of all attorneys in America live in California.

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Sometimes that's how it feels to us Kalifornians, too! It's a weird place to live sometimes, but it's also one of the most fun places I've ever lived.

How about------
Those who respond to a specific question answer because they have specific and actual knowledge, which they believe can help the asker



I know that wasn't the actual thread, but in reality, that's what happens when I either ask or respond to a question. I have on three occasions, talked person to person on the phone helping with a particular problem with which I have personally dealt with. Isn't this what the forum is for?

I look for advice--- I receive 3 completely different solutions, then I use what I think will help.
I actually appreciate each response. As each person took the time to respond.

IMO if your uncomfortable, don't do it!!!

If you need to ask this forum if your liable if you answer their question, then I'm not sure your asking the right group.
Perhaps a lawyer you know and trust----but--------