Forum advice liability

Sealife

I have met many TF regulars. Most if not all seem to have their wits about them and understand the realities of recreational boating. Based upon these meetings I'd brand TF regular members as pretty well tuned in.

Having issued forth the above, nothing the matter with letting your experienced based facts and opinions come out. If you read a comment or thread that seems off base, so state. Join the fray.

I do find your clueless phrase shared in a more subtle manner by Boat Poker. That is OK, just a surveyors' badge I'd guess.

psneeld said:

........... And I too have always blinked at the " 30 years boating experience"...had many of themy in my captains courses and scratched my head as to what they were doing....sleeping underway all those years?

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And yet you yourself pull out that line time after time.

boatpoker said:

Decades of working on boats, learning to sail in the North Sea, Cruising from Duluth MN to the Caribbean, being a full time liveaboard for twenty years and total rebuilds of three cruising powerboats has taught me a thing or two about boats but ..... I place just as much value on my education in meteorology, composite engineering, electrical systems and corrosion analysis and the literally dozens of course I've taken over the years from people such as Dave Rifkin, Ed Sherman, Kevin Ritz, Blake Lloyd .......

I know many boaters who claim 30 years of experience but what they really have is one years experience repeated 30 times.

Educated experience is the key in my humble opinion.

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With that experience, I'd sure listen to you, and the others you mention.

There are many professions that get bashed, and perhaps for good reason at times, but doesn't mean all in that profession are bad.

As for experience, we all have our differences, so we try to qualify the posts and determine what is best for us.

And, one years experience repeated 30 times still has some value.... perhaps an expert in a narrow subject area.

BandB said:

One other thing that came out in this thread and is something I find extremely distasteful and that is blanket attacks on professions or groups of people. I have no issue with saying one has had a problem finding good surveyors or brokers or electricians and asking for advice on how to do it, but saying all surveyors are useless, all brokers are frauds, all electricians are clueless, is very inappropriate, in my opinion.

In this thread, Sealife gets attacked for being a surveyor. Don't people realize that they're insulting individuals, no different than themselves? There are good and bad in every field and no one here works or did work in a profession immune from that.

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BandB,

True, but some professions do have a reputation. It's just the nature of the beast. Lawyers, Surveyors, Boat brokers, Real Estate Agents, Used car salesmen and others have all suffered the reputation of being lousy. True, in the minority of them, but enough of them have created the image to gain the title. So, we sort thru them, and find the good ones.

Most of us probably don't know Sealife, but should certainly give him the benefit of the doubt, and if hiring a surveyor, I'd sure favor one posting here.

CPseudonym said:

Well this promises to be a lively little thread

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Should be.

By the way, I recall you were asking at one point the best way to store additional gasoline for long trips. The only way to do it is in corked recycled glass bottles in the bilge. That's what I do, anyway, and you should too.

And, on another topic I think you raised, no, you don't need to plumb your propane system with that expensive hose the marine stores sell. Just use sections of old garden hose. And don't waste your time with hose clamps. Not necessary. Duct tape works as well.

Let me know if you need any more help with any questions on these or other topics.

Delfin said:

Should be.

By the way, I recall you were asking at one point the best way to store additional gasoline for long trips. The only way to do it is in corked recycled glass bottles in the bilge. That's what I do, anyway, and you should too.

And, on another topic I think you raised, no, you don't need to plumb your propane system with that expensive hose the marine stores sell. Just use sections of old garden hose. And don't waste your time with hose clamps. Not necessary. Duct tape works as well.

Let me know if you need any more help with any questions on these or other topics.

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sunchaser said:

Sealife

I have met many TF regulars. Most if not all seem to have their wits about them and understand the realities of recreational boating. Based upon these meetings I'd brand TF regular members as pretty well tuned in.

Having issued forth the above, nothing the matter with letting your experienced based facts and opinions come out. If you read a comment or thread that seems off base, so state. Join the fray.

I do find your clueless phrase shared in a more subtle manner by Boat Poker. That is OK, just a surveyors' badge I'd guess.

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I agree 100%!!!

Every TF member brings some expertise to the table. We have right here a huge variety of professions and trades represented by the membership. While not of all of us directly worked on boats for a living, what we did do, along with our hands on experience as owners provides a significant knowledge base to draw from.

The short answer and I think you'd agree is that just because we don't make our livings working on boats does not mean we are clueless, or lacking in knowledge...and just because someone wakes up in the morning, pays for a "surveyor" certificate, or takes a test does not make them subject matter experts on all things boating related.

I judge each post by its substance, and ignore any self proclamations of expertise.

ksanders said:

I agree 100%!!!

Every TF member brings some expertise to the table. We have right here a huge variety of professions and trades represented by the membership. While not of all of us directly worked on boats for a living, what we did do, along with our hands on experience as owners provides a significant knowledge base to draw from.

The short answer and I think you'd agree is that just because we don't make our livings working on boats does not mean we are clueless, or lacking in knowledge...and just because someone wakes up in the morning, pays for a "surveyor" certificate, or takes a test does not make them subject matter experts on all things boating related.

I judge each post by its substance, and ignore any self proclamations of expertise.

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ok, I'll bite
How to Become a Marine Surveyor

Seevee said:

BandB,

True, but some professions do have a reputation. It's just the nature of the beast. Lawyers, Surveyors, Boat brokers, Real Estate Agents, Used car salesmen and others have all suffered the reputation of being lousy. True, in the minority of them, but enough of them have created the image to gain the title. So, we sort thru them, and find the good ones.

Most of us probably don't know Sealife, but should certainly give him the benefit of the doubt, and if hiring a surveyor, I'd sure favor one posting here.

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It's our fault they have those reputations. First, we continue to select the bad ones. Don't do a good enough job pre-qualifying. Second, then we regularly talk about the professions. I hate to say this, but I've actually known good politicians even. My experiences with lawyers, surveyors and real estate agents has always been positive. i personally know boat brokers I'd trust, but I've never used one, nor have I ever dealt with a used car salesman, but I know there are some who have a large following of repeat customers.

boatpoker said:

ok, I'll bite
How to Become a Marine Surveyor

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Boatpoker, I generally pay close attention to what you say. Not because you are a surveyor, but because what you post generally makes sense.

There are many paths into the Surveyor trade, and not all surveyors have great knowledge. I think most here would agree with that based on our personal experience with members of your trade.

You, have proven yourself here, not because of a plackard on your office wall, but because of ther substance of what you post. Not so for everyone that calles themself a surveyor.

BandB said:

It's our fault they have those reputations. First, we continue to select the bad ones. Don't do a good enough job pre-qualifying. Second, then we regularly talk about the professions. I hate to say this, but I've actually known good politicians even. My experiences with lawyers, surveyors and real estate agents has always been positive. i personally know boat brokers I'd trust, but I've never used one, nor have I ever dealt with a used car salesman, but I know there are some who have a large following of repeat customers.

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+1

There are 250 surveyors in Ontario. I am familiar with all of them to some extent. There are three that I personally would hire and 247 that I would drum out of the business if I could. I am also familiar with many in the North East and the East coast of the US and another 8 or 9 I would heartily recommend there along with dozens I would recommend against. There are a large number of terrible surveyors in this business because it is so easy to get in to. A healthy dose of due diligence is required regardless of credentials. I do not claim to be the best (the best .... Dave Buchanan, David Wells, David Rifkin, Jerry Zingale as a few examples, these are the guys I call when I'm stumped) but I do make an honest effort.

I do somewhat agree with Psneelds earlier comments about the value of credentials however I do believe credentials set a baseline. Would you hire a doctor with no credentials ?

boatpoker said:

I do somewhat agree with Psneelds earlier comments about the value of credentials however I do believe credentials set a baseline. Would you hire a doctor with no credentials ?

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Not requiring at least some credentials leads to what you're talking about. The quality surveyors I've talked to wish there were some, just like brokers wishing the same as many of them have had issues dealing with unscrupulous brokers.

Delfin said:

Let me know if you need any more help with any questions on these or other topics.

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About time Carl, don't make me wait so long for your replies in the future.

Still packing your bilges full of rock salt and human waste? Sanitation is so overrated what with them thar educated professionals always spouting off about it.

boatpoker said:

+1

There are 250 surveyors in Ontario. I am familiar with all of them to some extent. There are three that I personally would hire and 247 that I would drum out of the business if I could.

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Gosh BP, only 1% of the boat surveyors in Ontario are worth hiring

sunchaser said:

Gosh BP, only 1% of the boat surveyors in Ontario are worth hiring

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And the other 99% post here

Delfin said:

Should be.

By the way, I recall you were asking at one point the best way to store additional gasoline for long trips. The only way to do it is in corked recycled glass bottles in the bilge. That's what I do, anyway, and you should too.

And, on another topic I think you raised, no, you don't need to plumb your propane system with that expensive hose the marine stores sell. Just use sections of old garden hose. And don't waste your time with hose clamps. Not necessary. Duct tape works as well.

Let me know if you need any more help with any questions on these or other topics.

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gaston said:

And the other 99% post here

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Gaston, how many more times am I going to have to tell you to go wash your mouth out..? You are a naughty wombat..!

BandB said:

I've actually known good politicians even.
.

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WOW... now there's a real oxymoron!!!
They don't even have a qualifying certificate program????

Amazing how much traffic this type of post generates vs a good technical discussion

Bacchus said:

WOW... now there's a real oxymoron!!!
They don't even have a qualifying certificate program????

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Sure they do ..... I think it's called a law degree.

ksanders said:

And to the OP, don't take this the wrong way but being a certified anything doesn't mean squat to me. It's the substance of the advice you give that has importantance, your credentials are unimportant.

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ranger42c said:

Yeah, mostly the same for me, too... especially in anonymous interaction over the 'net. Just 'cause some distant typist claims credentials doesn't even mean that's true, let alone whether typist's advice is legit or not.

Might be different in person. Choosing between advice from two different guys -- face to face -- I might lend a bit more credence to the credentialed guy. Or not, depending.

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boatpoker said:

I do somewhat agree with Psneelds earlier comments about the value of credentials however I do believe credentials set a baseline. Would you hire a doctor with no credentials ?

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Point taken, and that makes a useful addition to what I was thinking before. Responding to Kevin's post, I too don't reckon credentials automatically invest someone with superior knowledge.

OTOH, if I'm shopping for local help, and don't already know a specialist, I'll usually start looking for a "certified" guy in whatever field or for whatever product needs attention. Expecting (hoping) that certified guy is more knowledgeable than Bubba Off The Street. The credentialed doctor, so to speak.

But then, back to substance. Trust (maybe a little), but verify.

-Chris

ranger42c said:

I too don't reckon credentials automatically invest someone with superior knowledge.

-Chris

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Many of us fail to remember that 50% of the DR's finished in the bottom half of their class...same w lawyers...credentials just limit the field but that field ranges from the worst to best in their field.

Bacchus said:

Many of us fail to remember that 50% of the DR's finished in the bottom half of their class...same w lawyers...credentials just limit the field but that field ranges from the worst to best in their field.

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And that is where peer review comes in. Boatpoker painted his profession with a far more scathing indictment than any of us laymen ever could.

ranger42c said:

OTOH, if I'm shopping for local help, and don't already know a specialist, I'll usually start looking for a "certified" guy in whatever field or for whatever product needs attention. Expecting (hoping) that certified guy is more knowledgeable than Bubba Off The Street. The credentialed doctor, so to speak.

But then, back to substance. Trust (maybe a little), but verify.

-Chris

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I will do the same and when it comes to boats, I choose to use mechanics and yards with factory certification in what they're about to work on. It's one part of a good resume, but it's a minimum requirement.

A good example is Boatpoker's position that education is important too.

When I got into the marine trades, it was hard because so many people were telling me to install or repair stuff the "way it was always done". That expression became the kiss of death in the USCG.

My flying background just didn't buy that.

So many "experts"...such as yard managers or contract captains became suspect the more I learned. l like many here evaluating advice, backed it up with some second opinions or more research.

Sure enough, many things being done around me didn't meet many newer standards. It wasn't long before the local boaters grasped the difference of experience with and without the willingness of those who wanted to give the best advice by researching things they weren't absolutely sure of.

Bacchus said:

Many of us fail to remember that 50% of the DR's finished in the bottom half of their class...same w lawyers...credentials just limit the field but that field ranges from the worst to best in their field.

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Sure, likely true in any field.


And certainly "credentialed" doesn't necessarily mean "expert."

OTOH, a credentialed (whatever) at the bottom of his class... may know more than many un-credentialed guys off the street. Not to say he's an expert, not to say he knows more than some or even many un-credentialed guys... just that, in the absence of other useful into (referrals, word-of-mouth reputations, etc.)... maybe that's a better place to start relative to alternatives.

Maybe.

-Chris

ranger42c said:

in the absence of other useful into (referrals, word-of-mouth reputations, etc.)... maybe that's a better place to start relative to alternatives.

Maybe.

-Chris

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Agreed.

I would like to state for the record that everything I say is wrong.

OK, I'm back. Wow we have come around quite a bit. So now credentials are good, unless they are mine!. I stated my affiliation with SAMS and ABYC as I thought it may have some bearing on the question I asked. As I am always cautious to answer a question when all the facts are not presented, making the answer perhaps different. At no time is impressing people the intention(still don't think he is following the conversation).

Since this is now a credentials thread....I feel credentials are very important. It shows that one is serious enough in their field to invest time and money to achieve and maintain these. I guess it is like a business license and insurance(that should start a whole separate debate). Yes it doesn't necessarily show experience.

Interesting example. In my ABYC corrosion cert class there were several techs there for the 2nd and 3rd time, as they could not pass the test. Side note - I know some people just don't test well. One of them has been doing corrosion surveys for years. I can tell you he was clueless by the questions in class. The ABYC cert program is very good, and you need a good amount of experience to keep up, learn the material and pass with the minimum 80 percent. They are also now implementing experience requirements for new and renewal of certs. Yes I am sure someone will site the USCG master license again, as it is easily fudged by some. But it is a start. Just like the certs themselves.

Both is the answer, but everyone has to be new to something at some point.

Think I'm a gonna sue the Catholic church!

Pick a reason... it's all open to litigation.

They been a tellen me [us] fer years that I'm [we're] born a sinner.

Torment and worry it's created probably shortened untold numbers of persons' lives an undeterminable number of years.

Heck, this could become a worldwide class-action suit.

The Pope [King] has no cloths!

Happy Lawsuit Daze! - Art

Wrong. And you're not impressing anyone coming onto a forum and calling contributors "Clueless" and trying to scare people with 'sea lawyer' comments. And then standing on credentials as your justification.

It's one thing for class society to make uniform build and construction requirements.

It's another to state that private vessel owners are incapable of doing repairs. Or that owners should be held liable for giving advice to others. It's advice. It's free. It's their choice.

The other comment about auto service advisors rings true.