A scary night on the water last night...

Good points all. On my sailboats, I only used RADAR when I felt that conditions warranted. There were really two reasons that. The first is that I felt, and still feel, that eyes are better looking out than looking in. This was drilled into me during my VFR training decades ago and has been my experience on boats for the past 50 years. The second is limited plotter real estate. I only had one display and under normal daylight conditions, that real estate was better used for other information. When visibility was poor or at night, I would use the RADAR. Now on my boat I have the luxury of two display screens. It is much easier to display the RADAR without sacrificing other information. However, under normal daylight conditions, I am convinced that I am safer looking out at the water at traffic, than I am looking at a RADAR display.

However, I also have concluded that I need to spend more time with the RADAR so that under poor visibility conditions I am better at interpreting it. Hence, I have used the RADAR much more, even under ideal conditions, just to get that practice.

FWIW, I don't tend to do things in any area of my life simply to CYA. Some day that may come back to bite me, but it hasn't so far. My own layperson interpretation of the COLREGS is that when I will use RADAR when it enhances safety but not when it could distract from it.

BandBs point about more than one pair of eyes is very important. The other night, we had three of us actively looking for traffic and obstructions. Only one of us spotted the unlit anchored boat.

A navigation class instructor told our class that the best nav equipment you have are on each side of your nose.

I don't want to get into what is required or what a good lawyer can do to you in court. What most of you are discussing, maybe without realizing it, is Bridge Resource Management (BRM). This is HUGE in commercial shipping! With todays modern equipment you not only have to be trained generically you must also be certified on ship specific equipment.


Most commercial ships today have one man watches during daylight and clear weather. Most companies will also have specific bridge manning requirements for weather, traffic, arrival, departure, etc scenarios. But the all revolve around BRM. Using all the tools and personnel that are available to you.


Dhays you talk about using the radar during daylight to become more familiar with it. Absolutely, the only way to learn and understand what you are looking at when you can't see. You mentions 3 people acting as look outs at night, Bridge Resource Management.


I realize trawlers and big commercial ships are different. But the practice of BRM works for all boats no matter what their size. Know what is on board, Know how to use it, not just radars, but chart plotters, radios, auto pilots, engine controls. Know how much your crew knows, even your quests.


The better you Bridge Resource Management, the less likely you are to end up facing one of those lawyers that can make anyone look bad.


Quick story...somewhat quick


Years ago there was a ship outbound the Delaware River in fog. It mistook the highline power cables crossing the river around Pea Patch Island for a ship. At the time it had the latest and greatest ARPA on board, but no one on board was properly trained in its use. Even though the pilot should have realized where they were as well as the Master, the ship allided with and took down the towers. The ship was found unseaworthy due to the crew not being properly trained in the use of the equipment on board and it cost the company millions of $.


BRIDGE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT

captwill said:

Quick story...somewhat quick


Years ago there was a ship outbound the Delaware River in fog. It mistook the highline power cables crossing the river around Pea Patch Island for a ship. At the time it had the latest and greatest ARPA on board, but no one on board was properly trained in its use. Even though the pilot should have realized where they were as well as the Master, the ship allided with and took down the towers. The ship was found unseaworthy due to the crew not being properly trained in the use of the equipment on board and it cost the company millions of $.


BRIDGE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT

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Funny you bring this up. I was sitting at home doing my taxes when this went down. I picked up the phone and called our control room at Hope Creek. They had just synchronized the main gen to the grid when the 500 kv line to Keeney Delaware tripped out. The Shift Supervisor had a good laugh when I told him that a ship ran into it. No seriously! When I drove down to the dike where the line crosses, the high towers were gone. The ship was outbound and missed the turn in fog and drove straight into the base of the tower on the west side also pulling down another 2 towers. Now there are rock jetties for protection.

High Wire... that was many years ago when I was a very young 3rd Mate working for Sun Oil.

captwill said:

I don't want to get into what is required or what a good lawyer can do to you in court. What most of you are discussing, maybe without realizing it, is Bridge Resource Management (BRM). This is HUGE in commercial shipping! With todays modern equipment you not only have to be trained generically you must also be certified on ship specific equipment.


Most commercial ships today have one man watches during daylight and clear weather. Most companies will also have specific bridge manning requirements for weather, traffic, arrival, departure, etc scenarios. But the all revolve around BRM. Using all the tools and personnel that are available to you.


Dhays you talk about using the radar during daylight to become more familiar with it. Absolutely, the only way to learn and understand what you are looking at when you can't see. You mentions 3 people acting as look outs at night, Bridge Resource Management.


I realize trawlers and big commercial ships are different. But the practice of BRM works for all boats no matter what their size. Know what is on board, Know how to use it, not just radars, but chart plotters, radios, auto pilots, engine controls. Know how much your crew knows, even your quests.


The better you Bridge Resource Management, the less likely you are to end up facing one of those lawyers that can make anyone look bad.
===

BRIDGE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT

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CaptWill,

Interesting, learn something everyday.

I'm familiar with the concept but didn't know it was popular in boating. In flying we use what's called CRM (Cockpit Resource Management)..... same thing for planes as BRM is for boats. And CRM has drifted down from the airlines into general aviation.

Seems like BRM should be introduced to pleasure boating, been to some classes, but has not been mentioned.

I've already got a little start on it with specific duties, protocols, checklists, etc. One little thing I do is keep the mate or Admiral informed as to what I'm doing if not obvious, like "coming up on plane", or "going to pass on the starboard"... etc, so we both thinking the same thing, and if either has an objection we do the safer thing.

A small start and didn't know what it's called. Post more ideas if you have them, great stuff.

Seevee


BRM was plagiarized from the airline industry. From your background you are familiar with what it takes and needed to operate a safe and well informed boat.


The most important part of BRM or any resource management, is the inclusion of ALL personnel. It wasn't that long ago... ok maybe longer than I care to admit, that the Captain was the WORD and was not questioned. Everyone on the bridge assumed he knew everything there was to know. BRM, as in CRM makes everyone part of the team. It is important that everyone knows that and that they have input to the decision making without fear of reprimand. It has been a hard nut to crack with many of the OLD SCHOOL Captains. But they are coming around and they see the benefit. As in the airline industry, checklists have become the norm, arrival, departure, anchoring, etc. They enforce and remind us of what needs to be done.


So yeah... everyone takes part. They need to be informed as to what the captains intentions are. Including what he hopes to do and what his bailout plan is if it doesn't work. It is important that everyone knows they have a part in keeping the boat and crew safe and are comfortable to speak up. Sometimes this is a very difficult concept.


There is so much more to the process. We constantly put our officers through weeks of training and refresher courses in BRM. Most of it really is common sense, which at times is difficult to teach.


Stay safe and enjoy

captwill said:

Seevee

There is so much more to the process. We constantly put our officers through weeks of training and refresher courses in BRM. Most of it really is common sense, which at times is difficult to teach.


Stay safe and enjoy

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Ah yes... that sometimes elusive magic of common sense. Not only difficult to teach some times, but, also too often difficult to self-comprehend regarding what avenue to travel during unexpected, not-easily-understandable emergency situations.

I find that most of the correct answers/actions to overcome occurring circumstances follow the line of common sense. However, in the heat of the moment "that sense" can either be confused or too rushed for clear actions. Of course, hindsight is often 20-20!

Courses taught regarding the what-ifs for dealing with emergencies can help common sense come to the forefront during emergency. Self rehearsed and group rehearsed emergency actions are a good thing.

Be it that one is Captain or subordinate on any vessel it is wise (i.e. common sense) to listen carefully to others' input for solving an emergency.

foggysail said:

If the area you reference is a designated anchorage, you're not required to have an anchor light.

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That's a wrong and deadly conclusion. In all the many designated anchorages in the San Francisco Bay/Delta, only the special anchorage in Richardson Bay does not require anchor lights.

"§ 109.10 Special anchorage areas.
An Act of Congress of April 22, 1940,
provides for the designation of special
anchorage areas wherein vessels not
more than sixty-five feet in length,
when at anchor, will not be required to
carry or exhibit anchorage lights. Such
designation is to be made after investigation,
by rule, regulation, or order,
the procedure for which will be similar
to that followed for anchorage grounds
under section 7 of the Rivers and Harbors
Act of March 4, 1915, as referred to
in §109.05. ..."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title33-vol1/pdf/CFR-2012-title33-vol1-part110.pdf

captwill said:

BRIDGE RESOURCE MANAGEMENT

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Interestingly, the one additional course required for everyone wanting to get the STCW endorsement for their USCG license, to make their USCG license legal outside the US, is HELM, Human Element Leadership and Management.

Course Syllabus:

Students will be able to control the operation of the ship and care for persons on board at the management level through the use leadership and managerial skills to ensure that:

The crew are allocated duties and informed of expected standards of work and behaviour in a manner appropriate to the individuals concerned;

Training objectives and activities are based on assessment of current competence and capabilities and operational requirements;

Operations are planned and resources are allocated as needed in correct priority to perform the necessary tasks;

Communication is clearly and unambiguously given and received;

Effective leadership behaviours are demonstrated;

Necessary team member(s) share an accurate understanding of current and predicted vessel state and operational status and external environment;

Decisions are most effective for the situation;

Operations are demonstrated to be effective and in accordance with applicable rules.​

It's essentially a recognition that knowing how to operate a vessel isn't enough, you must manage and lead it. You must be able to use all your crew effectively. The aspect I find most related to this topic is "Decisions are most effective for the situation."

markpierce said:

That's a wrong and deadly conclusion. In all the many designated anchorages in the San Francisco Bay/Delta, only the special anchorage in Richardson Bay does not require anchor lights.

"§ 109.10 Special anchorage areas.
An Act of Congress of April 22, 1940,
provides for the designation of special
anchorage areas wherein vessels not
more than sixty-five feet in length,
when at anchor, will not be required to
carry or exhibit anchorage lights. Such
designation is to be made after investigation,
by rule, regulation, or order,
the procedure for which will be similar
to that followed for anchorage grounds
under section 7 of the Rivers and Harbors
Act of March 4, 1915, as referred to
in §109.05. ..."

https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/CFR-2012-title33-vol1/pdf/CFR-2012-title33-vol1-part110.pdf

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IMO - Common sense tells me to Turn-On anchor light whenever anchored without daylight present! Just that simple!!

Art said:

IMO - Common sense tells me to Turn-On anchor light whenever anchored without daylight present! Just that simple!!

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Same here. If I'm anchored and it's dark, the "anchor light." Those two words really seem to sum it all up for me, "anchor light." It's not called a "light to be used for anchoring when not specifically excluded from requirements by an act of congress." I think of that boater zipping around through the area and how does the Congressional exclusion help them see you're anchored. Not at all. There is not some flashing neon sign saying, "Many anchored boats here but they will not have their lights on."

In the airline world we have gone beyond the CRM/BRM ideas. It is now assumed. Granted, it still needs to be at the core of what we do. But it has been around long enough where it is ingrained culturally and it is evaluated in our proficiency training.

Since CRM, we have taken it up a notch. Threat and Error Management is pretty much where we are at. I have talked about it many times on here. It is not only important to know how to operate your boat and manage your crew and resources, it is important to know the threats that are present at the time of operation. Some of those threats are not under our control. Weather would be one of them. Traffic, another. Obstructions and shallow water would be yet another. Controllable threats would be managing automation. Managing distractions.

So knowing threats is extremely important. Once we know them, we can prepare and/or avoid them. We have tools for those threats. Tools would be checklists, radar, skill, policy, procedure, etc.

Knowing threats is important. Threats can lead to errors. Knowing when we have made an error and managing that error so it has no impact on the operation. So we must recognize and repair error to return to a safe operation.

If error go unchecked and unnoticed, they eventually lead to what we call a UAS...an Unsafe Aircraft State(unsafe ship state in this case). If we do not recover from an UAS, an accident/incident occurs.

I wear this right behind my company ID hanging from my shirt pocket.

Another current buzzword in aviation safety is "cognitive bias" and it is interesting. An example would be something like your expectation of making your destination. Sounds simple enough. We all expect to make our destination. But the closer we get, the stronger that expectation becomes. You add threats and errors in the operation and then you add a heavy dose of cognitive bias(expactations in this case), and some very bad decisions can be made. Those threats in boating maybe be decreasing visibility...nightfall...heavy traffic. What are you going to do when those threats stand in your way of making your destination??? A rhetorical question and one that is easy to answer from your armchair. But put yourself in the captain's seat and then a crew around you looking for you to make the decisions and your "mission centric" personality and things can go wrong in a hurry.

You can apply all these things to this accident. The threats were the jetty itself and to a greater extent, complacency. Their complacency of a short easy trip led them to make the error of not following their own self imposed stringent preparation. That error was never repaired and led to the accident.

If this stuff interests you, check out the link below. It explains different cognitive biases and how they relate to aviation. These are definitely applicable to operating a boat as well. Interesting stuff IMO....


https://airlinesafety.wordpress.com/2014/04/21/the-role-of-cognitive-bias-in-aircraft-accidents/

BandB said:

Same here. If I'm anchored and it's dark, the "anchor light." Those two words really seem to sum it all up for me, "anchor light." It's not called a "light to be used for anchoring when not specifically excluded from requirements by an act of congress." I think of that boater zipping around through the area and how does the Congressional exclusion help them see you're anchored. Not at all. There is not some flashing neon sign saying, "Many anchored boats here but they will not have their lights on."

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Truism - If I've Even Seen One/Them!

Seems to me (via statement in some other post) the "specific" exclusion was put into place during 1940. Pleasure boating was a different world back then - I can confidently say!

Baker


Great information! Thank you

I cant find it right now but anther technicality of special anchorages are about not having a live watch....so nobody to to turn it on.

also vessels less than 7 meters don't have to show an anchor light in most areas....rule 30

Baker,

Agreed, good info... I guess I got out of the airline business early enough to avoid the bias issue, but really interesting stuff.

Question: Do people in boating have a "operations manual" of sorts. Suspect they would in the commercial side, but wonder about pleasure boating..... Basically a manual that says what you will and will not do, limitations, operational specs, how you will run the boat, managing the systems, passengers, mates, maintenance, etc.?

I haven't thought of making one, and probably won't, but food for thought.

Seevee


Commercial companies all have operation/procedure manuals as well as planned maintenance computer software that is ship specific, some better than others.

psneeld said:

I cant find it right now but anther technicality of special anchorages are about not having a live watch....so nobody to to turn it on.

also vessels less than 7 meters don't have to show an anchor light in most areas....rule 30

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Yes, an absolutely insane rule but one made in times perhaps it was assumed they didn't have lights. If you're 6.9 meters and choose to not display an anchor light because you don't have to, then that's very foolish on your part.

The disconjointed part of this conversation is: professional mariners. (With hours and hours of training) have different expectations of performance and competence. There is a difference between competence and confidence. Look up JFK Jr. He had 'unlimited
Confidence'. But very limited competence. Licensing and regulation often blurr the difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld
I cant find it right now but anther technicality of special anchorages are about not having a live watch....so nobody to to turn it on.

also vessels less than 7 meters don't have to show an anchor light in most areas....rule 30

BandB said:

Yes, an absolutely insane rule but one made in times perhaps it was assumed they didn't have lights. If you're 6.9 meters and choose to not display an anchor light because you don't have to, then that's very foolish on your part.

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I cannot see any reason in 2016 why an anchored boat (of any length) after sunset would not have anchor light on. Short of total system malfunction or possibly needing to be in hiding for some reason.

cappy208 said:

The disconjointed part of this conversation is: professional mariners. (With hours and hours of training) have different expectations of performance and competence. There is a difference between competence and confidence. Look up JFK Jr. He had 'unlimited
Confidence'. But very limited competence. Licensing and regulation often blurr the difference.

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I think there's a huge blur over the definition even of professional mariner. There are many wearing such a label who don't regularly show professionalism, There are also many different types of mariners and the knowledge and experience don't always transfer to other forms of vessels and other areas of sailing as one might think. There are so many areas of specialization. Running supply vessels in the Gulf, towing barges on the Mississippi, captaining a container ship, captaining a cruise ship, captaining local tours, running a ferry daily, time on a 400' yacht, time on a 36' center console. All are very different and while the rules may generally be the same, applying them is far more of a challenge. i have a friend who has run more different <100 foot boats than anyone I know. It doesn't matter what it is, he can jump aboard and operate it and fix any issues that arise. He knows far more about those boats than the captain who has been on nothing under 200' or the one who has only done commercial work.

Two people with identical licenses may have extremely different areas of knowledge and expertise. You're right that licensing doesn't give a clear view of what one is really capable of. It doesn't in any field though. How many different types of doctors or lawyers? Yet, the basic license is the same.

Take the word "Doctor" which my wife hates to have used referring to her. Not only all the medical types but all the others. For a broken arm, probably not wise to go to a JD or a PhD in Curriculum and Instruction.

Art said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld
I cant find it right now but anther technicality of special anchorages are about not having a live watch....so nobody to to turn it on.

also vessels less than 7 meters don't have to show an anchor light in most areas....rule 30




I cannot see any reason in 2016 why an anchored boat (of any length) after sunset would not have anchor light on. Short of total system malfunction or possibly needing to be in hiding for some reason.

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For years with our sailboats, we would hoist a lantern on a halyard at night for an anchor light. It would burn all night long. You don't need modern tech to comply with the regs or to be safe. It is just easier now.

BandB said:

Take the word "Doctor" which my wife hates to have used referring to her. Not only all the medical types but all the others. For a broken arm, probably not wise to go to a JD or a PhD in Curriculum and Instruction.

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? I think I will refer to WifeyB as "Dr. WifeyB" from now on. After all, she earned that PhD.

dhays said:

? I think I will refer to WifeyB as "Dr. WifeyB" from now on. After all, she earned that PhD.

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Wifey B: And then I've got a name to refer to you by, that you might not be fond of either.....

i just saw too many in education use degrees as some form of superiority. To me, I was a teacher like any of the other teachers with my areas of expertise as they had their areas. I was and am proud of being a teacher. I'm sure I would have been considered least likely to be one.

Here is a current example of professional mariners not paying attention:

Power, phones, internet knocked out on Gabriola, Mudge Islands - British Columbia - CBC News

This occurred last night. Power is expected to be out 48 hrs.

BandB said:

Wifey B: And then I've got a name to refer to you by, that you might not be fond of either.....

i just saw too many in education use degrees as some form of superiority. To me, I was a teacher like any of the other teachers with my areas of expertise as they had their areas. I was and am proud of being a teacher. I'm sure I would have been considered least likely to be one.

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Wifey B - Perhaps I missed it, the suspense is Killen Me! You hold PhD in what; please, do tell. - Thanks, Art

dhays said:

? I think I will refer to WifeyB as "Dr. WifeyB" from now on. After all, she earned that PhD.

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Absolutely, regardless if it's a MD, DDS, or PhD., if she earned it you bow down and call her Doctor.