Forum advice liability

Ok, tread creep it is. I posted SOME of my credentials to put perspective on the question. I thought it might matter as related to the question. For instance I also hold a 100 ton license. That does make a difference if I were ever to be in an accident vs. before I was licensed. I knew the surveyor bit would get heavy fire, as I see it come up all the time. I dont even get involved with the defense of survey bashing mostly. boatpoker must have learned this long ago. I agree mostly with everyone's comments about credentials. I had the experience and became tired of dealing with people that knew less, etc. In those situations, at a professional and legal level, credentials make the difference. I am sure there are alot of people here with more experience in a lot of things than me. Fine, not the point. The clueless idiots is a general statement, alot of which has to do with a different forum. Notice I did not post this thread there, as I feel this group is better.

Thank you to the people that have intelligently tried to help with my concern.

I agree that there is some really bad advice posted on Internet forums. Some folks haven't got a clue yet it doesn't stop them from posting their interpretation of some thing they read somewhere.


There is good (and correct) advice posted also but if you don't know (and why else would you be asking?), how can you tell the good from the bad?


Liability for posting advice? I doubt it. It's no different than a conversation on the dock except it's on the Internet, not in person.

What about the Liability from inaction?

On the DEEP End we have one poster that dreams of cutting the heads off anyone that disagrees with his politics.

Should he climb up a Texas Tower with a couple of bricks of ammo (1000 round box) and commence firing , can we be held liable for our inaction??

FF, what the hell do politics have to do with any of this? They shape the laws....thats a stretch. Inaction liability, really?

seasalt007 said:

I wonder what the liability would be if one commissions surveys on a boat and rejects it, for some reason, then passes on the names, problems and locations of all involved in a forum?

Let's say for example that I see someone on this forum that is interested in purchasing the boat I just decided against. Should I tell everyone my experiences?

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I think it probably would not get you in any legal trouble, but bad form indeed. You own the survey results and can do with it what you wish. Where you might get some flak is if a statement is made that might be interpreted as being less than accurate. Probably best kept on a private level.

I like analogies to sort through things. Here's what I came up with:

Let's say your ex-GF kicks puppies. You find out she is dating someone so you broadcast on the net that Ms. So and So kicks puppies. While accurate, it will incur her wrath. It then may put you in the position of having to defend your claim, which is not a fun nor productive place to be.

Sealife said:

Donna, TOS? Excuse my ignorance, I'm pretty new to forums.

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Not sure if this was ever explained fully. Any forum that I have been a part of has Terms of Service. In other words, TF provides a service to us that they don't charge for. However, when we signed up we were asked to agree with the TOS, which were linked from that page iirc. Over time we can sometimes forget about them but it is a way that the forum owner can reduce their own liability.

Way at the bottom of each page of the site is a link to the Terms of Service. You can find them here.

No offense to the OP, but this whole thread strikes me as really funny. Because the advice is sometimes so very bad on the internet, the OP asks a legal question on an internet forum. Am I the only one who sees the hilarious contradiction in that?

None taken, I am quite aware of the irony, which is why I appreciate being pointed in the right direction ie. TOS. Which BTW does have the liability disclaimer not only for the website but its members as well. The problem is all the shoot from the hip opinions that water down the intelligent exchange of information. I guess this is why the kids just use google these days...

First, as to liability of the forum, virtually none. TOS and case law support that.

As to liability of individuals, only in rare circumstances which I've seen none of here.

The one place there can be individual liability here is in calling out professionals or businesses with the intent to harm, with information one knows to be false, and with real harm to their business occurring. As an example, if you falsely accused a marina owner of claiming to have ethanol free gas and it actually having ethanol and you knew that was a lie and that cost the marina business.

We have seen people sued and lose based on facebook posts and even more recently Yelp reviews where the intent was to cause harm to a business with publishing knowingly false information.

The other more recent liability from online posts is cyber bullying. That can rise to a criminal level. Example would be to say former boyfriend is HIV positive and all girls he's sleeping with have been exposed. Another is costing someone their job by making knowingly false claims, such as fired from previous job for embezzlement or has been arrested for drugs on numerous occasions.

Medical advice is an entirely different area and can be problematic if one represents themselves as a doctor and gives advice, while not being a doctor.

The only place I've seen here where I'd see any potential issue is where claims have been made against various professionals. If those claims are knowingly false, then there's liability.

As to just day to day advice, there is an assumption that you get what you pay for and since we all pay zero, then it's caveat emptor.

P.S. Encouraging one to do an illegal act, depending on the nature of that act, could carry liability.

I guess this may be the issue. When I seek info, it is for facts, standards, laws, etc. Others, I guess are happy with opinions.

So to clarify, opinions are fine for what layout do you like, what color canvas is good, what weather site do you like..... Opinions are not OK for things related to property damage and personal injury like, electrical and mechanical installations.

I think these get blurred, in my OPINION, way to often ?

the absolute biggest mistake is to think boating is only facts and laws and standards.

anyone who thinks there is only one right way, one wrong way in my opinion is a diehard in the box thinker without much real world experience.

the biggest loss in forums is the repeated chant of call a professional....

what is ironic, is even professional opinions here are slammed...

One other thing that came out in this thread and is something I find extremely distasteful and that is blanket attacks on professions or groups of people. I have no issue with saying one has had a problem finding good surveyors or brokers or electricians and asking for advice on how to do it, but saying all surveyors are useless, all brokers are frauds, all electricians are clueless, is very inappropriate, in my opinion.

In this thread, Sealife gets attacked for being a surveyor. Don't people realize that they're insulting individuals, no different than themselves? There are good and bad in every field and no one here works or did work in a profession immune from that.

psneeld, being around others affected by litigation will change your perspective. They did the same as everyone else, but they got called on it. Explain your "real world experience" to the judge. As I stated, that is where standards and credentials to make a difference.

Sealife said:

For instance I also hold a 100 ton license. .

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Ulp. 100 whole tons! Like as in more than 50? Wow. I am impressed.

"Unfortunately most people looking for advice do so because they are trying to save a buck, and the cheapest/easiest suggestions always seem to be taken."

I discovered TF after I purchased my first and only power boat. Wish I'd discovered TF before I bought a power boat, but that's another story.

With the advice and help of a lot of TFers, I've brought the old girl back to life and maintained her over the past five years, starting from a minimal personal knowledge base. Not being in the target market for Yachting or ShowBoat mags, yep, I sure am looking for advice to "save a buck." I am also crystal clear on the concept that free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

I've hung out here long enough to have a sense of who knows what they're talking about and who is (in my totally personal opinion) not up to speed. I also fully expect that I may sometimes be wrong in my evaluation. That's on me - no-one else.

Looking at just the responders to this post, I see Craig, Ted, psneeld, AusCan, John, Murray, George, Kevin, Pete, Fred, Chris, Ski, and Dave. All of whom have, at one time or another, provided me with good advice that saved me many boatbucks over the years. I've also unexpectedly discovered that I thoroughly enjoy doing (most) of the work on my own and, through this free advice, discovered a lot of work I can accomplish through my own amateur efforts. This would not have happened without the TF input.

The lawerly concerns about "liabilty", when publicly thrown about, is, in my experience, generally put forth by non-lawyers.

Cappy208, thank you for proving the point. I disclosed my license because it does affect the outcome of certain situations. And you turn it into a personal attack! Nice

Sealife said:

Cappy208, thank you for proving the point. I disclosed my license because it does affect the outcome of certain situations. And you turn it into a personal attack! Nice

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Obviously you didn't read my earlier post. I'm not about a 'tonnage' value. But a realization about value over all.

Post #21, yea I read it. Doesn't have anything to do with your comment. Not to mention if you're not about tonnage, why the pointless post?

Anyway, again thanks for those that provided usable info. I don't wish to have a back and forth with the rest of you, providing no further information related to the matter at hand. Not one for arguments, as this thing is already going past its usefulness. Maybe time for a new thread...opinions vs. facts, or experience vs. credentials, or something about liability of undersized anchors

Sealife said:

psneeld, being around others affected by litigation will change your perspective. They did the same as everyone else, but they got called on it. Explain your "real world experience" to the judge. As I stated, that is where standards and credentials to make a difference.

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sure but only to a point...

the last testimony I gave, 2 ambulance chasing lawyers tried to use the Navrules book against me....let's just say they didn't look too good quoting the book without understanding it like my "real world expeience" allowed me to apply it to the situation.

Decades of working on boats, learning to sail in the North Sea, Cruising from Duluth MN to the Caribbean, being a full time liveaboard for twenty years and total rebuilds of three cruising powerboats has taught me a thing or two about boats but ..... I place just as much value on my education in meteorology, composite engineering, electrical systems and corrosion analysis and the literally dozens of course I've taken over the years from people such as Dave Rifkin, Ed Sherman, Kevin Ritz, Blake Lloyd .......

I know many boaters who claim 30 years of experience but what they really have is one years experience repeated 30 times.

Educated experience is the key in my humble opinion.

Sealife said:

... I guess this is why the kids just use google these days...

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Except many boat related Google searches will bring you here to TF

boatpoker said:

Decades of working on boats, learning to sail in the North Sea, Cruising from Duluth MN to the Caribbean, being a full time liveaboard for twenty years and total rebuilds of three cruising powerboats has taught me a thing or two about boats but ..... I place just as much value on my education in meteorology, composite engineering, electrical systems and corrosion analysis and the literally dozens of course I've taken over the years from people such as Dave Rifkin, Ed Sherman, Kevin Ritz, Blake Lloyd .......

I know many boaters who claim 30 years of experience but what they really have is one years experience repeated 30 times.

Educated experience is the key in my humble opinion.

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Very good point BP....educated experience is the key. One without the other is like I always say...knowledge plus experience is wisdom...kids exhibit great knowledge these days...especially with the web...what they lack is experience.

In the military..they take the totally uninformed and beat classroom training and hands on training into you, evolution after evolution...it is the quickest way to competency I know of.

And I too have always blinked at the " 30 years boating experience"...had many of themy in my captains courses and scratched my head as to what they were doing....sleeping underway all those years?

Sealife said:

yeah. tonnage

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Somehow I think you don't understand that a USCG license does't impress? 100 tons is an entry level license. With a one week course, and little documentation as a base. I have tossed 100 ton masters off the wheel.... many times. Just as many times I have had OS ordinary seaman who are extraordinary in performance.

psneeld said:

And I too have always blinked at the " 30 years boating experience"...

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Mid 2012, I had roughly 30 years of boating experience. However, I had 0 years of experience in terms of the boating I was about to start then and continue through today. I had well over 2000 days of "sea time", but none on the ocean. I was extremely knowledgeable of lake boating and zero knowledge of coastal boating. If you wanted an expert in pulling water skiers I was one. In the four years since then and over 60,000 nm of cruising, I've learned far more than in the previous 30 years. In fact, I learned more in the first six months by far than the previous 30 years.

So, basically I am the example of 30 years doing the same thing, very simple boating vs 4 years of intensive boating with expert training.

I also don't think we can learn all we need to on our own, mainly because the teacher in those circumstances knows no more than we do. I had to learn from those who had knowledge and experience. We knew a man a little over 6 months ago who had owned his 50' boat for four years and seemed lost. I suggested he get a teaching captain to take him out for a day. He said he'd learned more in that day than the previous 4 years. He's had a couple more days of the captain in the six months since then.

I learn something here regularly. Even have learned some about anchors here. You have to filter the information but still you learn.

Bacchus said:

Except many boat related Google searches will bring you here to TF

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There are a half dozen intelligent, experienced posters on this forum whose posts I scrutinize and look forward to. There are a half dozen posters with huge numbers of posts who know little but offer opinions freely with little understanding of what they have just copied from a 2 minute Google search.
These people tend to be the attackers when corrected so those that know better often just move on leaving BS info unchallenged.

Unfortunately the newbie can't tell the difference, such is the internet.

boatpoker said:

Decades of working on boats, learning to sail in the North Sea, Cruising from Duluth MN to the Caribbean, being a full time liveaboard for twenty years and total rebuilds of three cruising powerboats has taught me a thing or two about boats but ..... I place just as much value on my education in meteorology, composite engineering, electrical systems and corrosion analysis and the literally dozens of course I've taken over the years from people such as Dave Rifkin, Ed Sherman, Kevin Ritz, Blake Lloyd .......

I know many boaters who claim 30 years of experience but what they really have is one years experience repeated 30 times.

Educated experience is the key in my humble opinion.

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I would agree with you. I have over 50 years experience boating on Puget Sound on a variety of different sized boats. I don't consider myself truly competent in many things. I am a rank amateur who simply has done stuff a lot and mostly gotten away with it. I am free with my opinions, but very rarely would I describe myself as truly knowledgable. I just figure most folks realize that as well.

cappy208 said:

Somehow I think you don't understand that a USCG license does't impress? 100 tons is an entry level license. With a one week course, and little documentation as a base. I have tossed 100 ton masters off the wheel.... many times. Just as many times I have had OS ordinary seaman who are extraordinary in performance.

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Wifey B: Just because you've tossed 100 ton masters off doesn't mean you should attack them all. I don't know if Sealife is good or not. I think he has a right to be proud of whatever licensing and knowledge he has though. Yeah, tons of 100's....I like how I did that...would be lost on your type boat, but there are plenty of situations you wouldn't be the expert pro in either. Some people have lesser tonnage because of experience and some have it because of the size boats they are involved with. I knew this one ancient mariner, 50 years experience, 100 tons, but he never worked on and never would work on larger boats. Smaller boats though, he was a real pro and I'd put him against anyone with any tonnage.

Each time my tonnage goes up doesn't mean on that day I suddenly became smarter. It's continual learning. I like learning more crap even if I have no use for it.

psneeld said:

the absolute biggest mistake is to think boating is only facts and laws and standards.

anyone who thinks there is only one right way, one wrong way in my opinion is a diehard in the box thinker without much real world experience.

the biggest loss in forums is the repeated chant of call a professional....

...

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When you are talking electrical and plumbing, your options are severely limited. That "box" is what keeps us and others safe.

As far as calling a professional, it's often quite clear to someone who knows a subject that the poster is unqualified to proceed with his or her project.