Forum advice liability

Just wondering about the liability involved with giving "advice" online. Being a surveyor and ABYC certified master tech, I see way too many "contributors" without a clue. Wouldn't be hard to go back in the event of a loss and prove who the contributor was. Is there a blanket disclaimer when you join these forums stating such? I just get tired of arguing with clueless idiots, and give up.

Unfortunately most people looking for advice do so because they are trying to save a buck, and the cheapest/easiest suggestions always seem to be taken.

Don't get mad at me but I disagree on what you said.
I am a beginner so bare with me for giving my opinion on the subject.
If some are seeking advice it can be for self education or to get a second opinion.
It is the responsability of everybody to do his homework and think before just applying advice.
If someone advise me to bang my head on the wall because it is a relief when you stop, if I do it I am a bloody idiot and responsible to be one.
Moreover I don't think that any certification prevent someone to give a bad advice as it has also to see with knowlege, ethic, interest and many other things.
I would risk a parallel with some mechanics who will tell you that you need to do 2000$ of repair when they know the issue is a 2$ fix. This does not mean all mechanics are bad but not all are good too.

It would be too easy to say I did something wrong because that guy on the web told me to do it. A forum is a source of information like any other media, your duty to check the information before believing it.

Sorry to argue with you

Well this promises to be a lively little thread

Sealife said:

Just wondering about the liability involved with giving "advice" online. Being a surveyor and ABYC certified master tech, I see way too many "contributors" without a clue. Wouldn't be hard to go back in the event of a loss and prove who the contributor was. Is there a blanket disclaimer when you join these forums stating such? I just get tired of arguing with clueless idiots, and give up.

Unfortunately most people looking for advice do so because they are trying to save a buck, and the cheapest/easiest suggestions always seem to be taken.

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In your case (being a professional) it may be different. For us non professionals, think someone would have to prove intent of malice to get anywhere in court. Don't think any court is going to hold a person (not a doctor) liable for telling someone else to take 2 aspirin for a headache, and then it turns out he had a brain tumor.

Ted

heck I could just go back and show my surveys as a yardstick.....wouldn't be even a roll of the dice between giving advice over the Internet versus a person doing an inspection with so many errors.

I don't blame surveyors as their job to find stuff without taking stuff apart or destructive testing is nearly impossible to bat a 1000.....so how can someone giving advice over the Internet be held liable unless it is so precisely laid out that it is obvious malice was the intent.

Of course you will find both good and bad advice on forums; from novices and from professionals. It's the internet. Is there someone who thinks it is all true?

There seems to be a paranoia about liability with so many things, even when there is absolutely no risk of litigation.

(Disclaimer - This may not be true)

Read TOS for the forum.

My first opportunity to work on a boat was at the age of 10, seems I was the only person who could fit in the back of a neighbors Chris Craft. My mentors were grateful for it and I've been working on boats since then and continue to learn something new everyday. Just today, after returning from a trip of a lifetime, with the main compass, auto pilot and Raymarine chart plotter that none of them would sync up with the same heading, we found that the monitor I installed to plug into the IPad was giving off a strong magnetic field that effected them all. Took it out, an surprise, they all worked out fine.

I was raised to accept responsibility for your own actions. No matter how painful it may be, look in the mirror first before you blame someone else.
In today's society, people tend to wanna blame someone else first. And That's a shame. We have become a sue happy society. And why not! Were bombarded with advertisements daily by ambulance chasers.
I for one really appreciate the advise given on this forum. My hope is that we will continue to freely do so as we have done in the past.
And I will willingly give advise if it helps a fellow boater out. Just remember that advise on the inter web is just that.
Cheers!

The way I've rationalized it, is to give as much weight to advice given on Internet forums as one would give to conversations overheard on a bus. The responsibility is mine to confirm accuracy/relevance.

Sealife said:

Just wondering about the liability involved with giving "advice" online. Being a surveyor and ABYC certified master tech, I see way too many "contributors" without a clue. Wouldn't be hard to go back in the event of a loss and prove who the contributor was. Is there a blanket disclaimer when you join these forums stating such? I just get tired of arguing with clueless idiots, and give up.

Unfortunately most people looking for advice do so because they are trying to save a buck, and the cheapest/easiest suggestions always seem to be taken.

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Just because your a so called surveyor and ABYC certified master tech how good is the advice your given on the forum is it any better than the burger tosser from Mc Donald's

Donna said:

Read TOS for the forum.

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Good call.

psneeld, we have all had a bad survey experience, it's actually the reason I went for training. I thought there has to be a better way. And yes, there is never enough time to look at what the insurance and finance companies want, and cover everything the buyer wants. At least not with out doing more than the few hours the broker wants to give you.

Donna, TOS? Excuse my ignorance, I'm pretty new to forums.

Crusty Chief, I agree its a sad state of affairs. But my Lawyer sister is always up my a.. about such things. SAMS recently polled its members about interst in errors and omissions insurance. It's getting ugly out there.

gaston, I understand Australia is very different, as I just had a discussion with a guy building his own fuel tank! It's funny how people without credentials always want to argue about the worthlessness of credentials. You go ahead and hire a burger tosser if it makes you happy. Just don't complain when it bites you in the a..

Anyone who relies solely on anonymous, no accountability, crowd-sourced information to make a decision is a fool. All it gives you is some clues or hints. Worth exactly what you pay for, and that is the extent of any "liability".

TOS is "terms of service" by the way.

I think that the concept of liability would stem from a relationship between you and the person you're giving advice too. I think lacking a financial relationship, the advice you've given which is free would not be subject to any errors or omissions

And to the OP, don't take this the wrong way but being a certified anything doesn't mean squat to me. It's the substance of the advice you give that has importantance, your credentials are unimportant.

George, I totally agree, most people do. I'm not asking about right, wrong, or common sense. I'm curious as to the legal aspects. I'll try to find TOS, I would have to think it is in there, you know the 5000 words everyone always accepts without reading for everything these days! Your signature line sums it up perfectly.

MurrayM said:

The way I've rationalized it, is to give as much weight to advice given on Internet forums as one would give to conversations overheard on a bus. The responsibility is mine to confirm accuracy/relevance.

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That about sums it up, and the best explanation I have heard emerge. It is still basically, buyer beware, and no guarantee offered, in my view.

Sealife said:

gaston, I understand Australia is very different, as I just had a discussion with a guy building his own fuel tank! It's funny how people without credentials always want to argue about the worthlessness of credentials. You go ahead and hire a burger tosser if it makes you happy. Just don't complain when it bites you in the a..

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Pfft credentials mean nothing its whats behind the credentials that matters. I would have more faith in a nurse trained in Australia than a PHD doctor from India and in the past sacked more ppl with credentials than without. It also seem the ones with credentials love ppl to know they have them

Something I observed many times - education is a poor substitute for intelligence. There is at least one of us here that is not impressed with the job many surveyors do.

We seem to have moved from liability for advice given on TF, to shafting in advance any professionals, including the OP, who might give it.
There is/was law in the UK and Australia(maybe followed elsewhere) that someone who gives gratuitous (meaning without fee, not meaning offensive) advice they are in the business of giving, in circumstances when they know or expect the advice will be followed, can be liable for advice given negligently. Malice is no requirement.
But, that`s all far too serious. Look at all the input on a issue, and make your own decision. If you prefer the advice of the unqualified over the advice of the qualified, that`s your choice. Based on the above, if he`s wrong and you suffer loss he`s off the hook and was probably never on it.

Sealife said:

Just wondering about the liability involved with giving "advice" online. Being a surveyor and ABYC certified master tech, I see way too many "contributors" without a clue. Wouldn't be hard to go back in the event of a loss and prove who the contributor was. Is there a blanket disclaimer when you join these forums stating such? I just get tired of arguing with clueless idiots, and give up.

Unfortunately most people looking for advice do so because they are trying to save a buck, and the cheapest/easiest suggestions always seem to be taken.

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For the most part, forum owners and moderators in the United States are protected by Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which states that "no provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."

Their immunity was upheld in several court cases especially when the TOS of the forum were very clear. TOS can be considered as a contract which has the force of law between the contracting parties and consequently produces effects.

Having said that, actually I'm surprised that a so called professional "surveyor and ABYC certified master tech" wish to call our honorable friends 'clueless idiots'. Our knowledge is mostly acquired through direct experience, we simply use whatever skills we have which we bring on the table, just exchanging views, practices, analyses, recommendations and interrogations with those of other on what sounds true or good to us. Because nobody and nothing is perfect, we have come here to learn and to share.

Well, we must be realistic enough to understand, as Peter B well said "it is still basically, buyer beware, and no guarantee offered" which is the principle of a forum. We often say "IMO" - implicitly or explicitly - in this cautious way that we will recommend thing and advice.

We often lack the necessary knowledge, we are ignorant (even if some people here don't like the word) in many topics, starting with me. Therefore if however a substantial mistake may be showed, since you are a professional, nothing prevents you to chime in and to give recommendations for corrective measures, you are very welcome to do this.

I always welcome guidance and advices, but I don't like people who simply act by giving lessons and pointing the finger. If you think that some of us are clueless idiots enough for you, you know what to do, we are not holding you prisoner here.

@Sealife:

As a 'Professional' don't let your accreditation fool you into a superiority complex. My experience with 'society' membership is: A week class, and a fee does not a professional make.

It is not solely the CV that shows competence. As you know from your other interactions there are degreed professionals who show varying degrees of competence as well as incompetence in their fields of endeavor.

Having only paid for one survey in my life, only to justify flying to buy a boat a thousand miles away, a survey is only as good as the person doing it. Accreditation or not.

Personally, I have 45 years working on commercial vessels and yachts. One of the most difficult things to accept (especially if you have a license) is: Not every 'Captain' is equal. Neither is a surveyor. To state otherwise shows naïveté.

That said, after actually reading most of them, commenters on this forum display their aggregate experience totaling millions of miles of cruising experience. I'd rather look for their comments than a 'Society' member of unknown quantity.
Want to discuss abyc vs abbc vs rys? That's another conundrum.

All that is given on line is OPINION from an individual.

The joy is other folks can take exception , and post their different opinion.

The rational and logic can be judged by the OP , and he can decide if his question was answered.

Opinions vary , which is why Howard Johnson has all those ice cream flavors.

BruceK said:

But, that`s all far too serious. Look at all the input on a issue, and make your own decision. If you prefer the advice of the unqualified over the advice of the qualified, that`s your choice. Based on the above, if he`s wrong and you suffer loss he`s off the hook and was probably never on it.

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omc said:

For the most part, forum owners and moderators in the United States are protected by Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act, which states that "no provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."

Their immunity was upheld in several court cases especially when the TOS of the forum were very clear. TOS can be considered as a contract which has the force of law between the contracting parties and consequently produces effects.

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Ok dear people, we have the the (unofficial but valued) opinion, of not one, but two lawyers there, so I hope we are all satisfied we will not end up on the end of a law suit because we came on here, and offered up a bit of often hard won advice, an anecdote, or the benefit of some bitter or expensive experience. Thanks to both of you gentlemen, we can now get back to chewing the fat, as they say, (whoever 'they' were), and without anxiety.

ksanders said:

And to the OP, don't take this the wrong way but being a certified anything doesn't mean squat to me.

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Yeah, mostly the same for me, too... especially in anonymous interaction over the 'net. Just 'cause some distant typist claims credentials doesn't even mean that's true, let alone whether typist's advice is legit or not.

Might be different in person. Choosing between advice from two different guys -- face to face -- I might lend a bit more credence to the credentialed guy. Or not, depending.

-Chris

I wonder what the liability would be if one commissions surveys on a boat and rejects it, for some reason, then passes on the names, problems and locations of all involved in a forum?

Let's say for example that I see someone on this forum that is interested in purchasing the boat I just decided against. Should I tell everyone my experiences?

seasalt007 said:

I wonder what the liability would be if one commissions surveys on a boat and rejects it, for some reason, then passes on the names, problems and locations of all involved in a forum?

Let's say for example that I see someone on this forum that is interested in purchasing the boat I just decided against. Should I tell everyone my experiences?

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While maybe not strictly illegal, my feeling would be that doing that would be bad form, sir...just not cricket, you know...

Also, if a proper survey, the surveyor could well claim a breech of confidentiality, in that a survey is usually only for the benefit of the individual who commissioned and paid for it. Hard to enforce, though...

To get back to the OP's question regarding liability- To those in the legal community, does any one know of any case where advice given on a forum has lead to a lawsuit, or even the threat of a lawsuit?

I sense in his question a fear of such a situation. But as this non-lawyer understands the law, putting a successful case together would be dang near impossible.

So any case law out there? I bet not.

Not the same situation as a hired pro such as a surveyor getting pinged for an error or omission...

Sealife said:

Just wondering about the liability involved with giving "advice" online. Being a surveyor and ABYC certified master tech, I see way too many "contributors" without a clue. Wouldn't be hard to go back in the event of a loss and prove who the contributor was. Is there a blanket disclaimer when you join these forums stating such? I just get tired of arguing with clueless idiots, and give up.

Unfortunately most people looking for advice do so because they are trying to save a buck, and the cheapest/easiest suggestions always seem to be taken.

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Sealife,

Good thought, but you have a response from the community.

Agree on the clueless idiots, but fortunately there's not many. Some of the folks that look like clueless idiots just guess at the answer/solution to a post without really much experience or knowledge... perhaps they had one experience, when others have had thousands. When we read the responses it's prudent to figure out who had the one experience and who had the thousands, and who is more likely credible.

As for the liability... anyone can be sued. Likely? Probably not. I could argue to add a disclaimer to your signature.

As for credentials... yes they have value. Be it a surveyor, doctor, boat captain or mechanic... all have value, and I'd take the one with credentials every time if all other considerations are equal. But we all know there's good and bad in everything, so we go a step further and get references and looked at their results.

Making major decisions from internet verbiage along is probably foolish, but it could easily lead to major decisions, and one can be enlightened with ideas or thoughts that were never apparent. So, give all the info you can, you may help out a fellow member, and don't worry about the liability. Just don't be the guy that spouts out information or advise that's not without reasonable fact.

Overall, I find forums VERY informational, and I've learned a TON of stuff and make decisions often that stemmed from the information, and have gotten better products and better services because of forums. I would hate to see the end of forums cause by legal BS.

seasalt007 said:

I wonder what the liability would be if one commissions surveys on a boat and rejects it, for some reason, then passes on the names, problems and locations of all involved in a forum?

Let's say for example that I see someone on this forum that is interested in purchasing the boat I just decided against. Should I tell everyone my experiences?

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Agreed, bad form. More appropriate for a PM.

Ski in NC said:

To get back to the OP's question regarding liability- To those in the legal community, does any one know of any case where advice given on a forum has lead to a lawsuit, or even the threat of a lawsuit?

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Ben Ezra, Weinstein & Co. v. America Online, 206 F.3d 980, 984-985 (10th Cir. 2000), cert. denied, 531 U.S. 824 (2000).
Immunity for AOL was upheld against liability for a user's posting of incorrect stock information :

America Online (AOL) was sued for providing wrong information about Ben Ezra, Weinstein, & Co.'s stock. AOL was not considered a content-creator simply by editing stock quotations or corresponding with a third-party provider to correct errors. Because third-party companies "alone created the stock information at issue," AOL could not be held liable for defamation when it displayed the stock quotes on its site.

Ski in NC, please look at the following link from my DropBox.

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