A scary night on the water last night...

I did recollect, with some irony, this discussion earlier today while driving down Rainier Avenue (a busy four lane in Seattle); when a sympathetic pedestrian engrossed in self conversation elected to cross an intersection against traffic.
Fortunately (remarkably?), 50 or so drivers set their rights-of-way aside and paused while our neighbor proceeded on her journey....

Padeen said:

I did recollect, with some irony, this discussion earlier today while driving down Rainier Avenue (a busy four lane in Seattle); when a sympathetic pedestrian engrossed in self conversation elected to cross an intersection against traffic.
Fortunately (remarkably?), 50 or so drivers set their rights-of-way aside and paused while our neighbor proceeded on her journey....

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Now, that's what we're talking about! Pleasure Boat Captains should be similarly as observant (and forgiving when circumstances call for it) as car captains can be.

Your story reminds me of a road occurrence couple months ago. At afternoon rush hour: older woman with tow cart in hand carrying one food bag walked haltingly straight across Sir Francis Drake Blvd. in Marin County CA. ... during full red light in her direction. Both sides of blvd. made nary a move till she was across. In my book that is called aplomb.

Ski in NC said:

Sailboat masthead lights can be a problem for me. I had one tacking across a river and with his heel the lights were barely visible. Also my eyes are generally scanning lower down where most small boat running lights are. And the tacks can be unpredictable. I think some sailboaters like challenging powerboats as some sort of sick sport.

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Yep.

Also, I've now noticed that some sail boats are using LED that they can change color.
Very handy until they forget to turn on the correct color.

Running down the Irish coast, we encountered a SV on a reciprocal couse showing a red top mast light.

My nephew was at the helm and I was watching over his shoulder. I find this best under difficult situations for me not helm so i can decide what to do.

We'd been watching this light for 15 minutes and had decided it was the top of a radio antenna about 10 miles away, as bearing never changed the whole time!

Nothing on radar, but seas were 4 to 6 feet, thus would get sporadic returns of wave tops.

At about 500 feet, I realize it's a sv dead ahead and grab the wheel to turn hard to stbd.

He passes a few hundred feet on our port side.
I call in 16 "sailing vessel running a red mast light"

He doesn't answer, but red light turns white.

Idiot.

PS. Unless I'm in a channel and don't have much room to maneuver, I never worry about stand to or off, I just adjust my course to pass astern.

Wxx3 said:

Yep.


PS. Unless I'm in a channel and don't have much room to maneuver, I never worry about stand to or off, I just adjust my course to pass astern.

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Wxx3 said:

Yep.

Also, I've now noticed that some sail boats are using LED that they can change color.
Very handy until they forget to turn on the correct color.

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. Really?

Running down the Irish coast, we encountered a SV on a reciprocal couse showing a red top mast light.

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Really?

Or does your misunderstanding of Colregs not allow you to know what light you're looking at?????


The light 'magically' changed colors?


Really!!!!!????

Or was this answer ( and many more) a Colregs solution?


This was a 'Masthead Tri Color' light fully authorized, appropriately used, correctly installed And (most importantly) misinterpreted by you.


The light doesn't magically 'change color'. You (both vessels) have travelled through the sector visibility as you passed each other.

"I call in 16 "sailing vessel running a red mast light"
He doesn't answer, but red light turns white."

Regardless of the rules when sailing far offshore we always show a white 360 light.

For the observer it ,

Could be a stern light or an anchor! light.

Or a small boat ( 7 meters) properly showing white all around.

At 33ft (10meters) our speed of 5-6.5K is minor to most ships , we are stationary from their point of view.

I feel the ability to be seen 3 x as far away than a color running light is a safety factor worth far more than dim red or green lights.

With the LED lights a good case can be made for deck or spreader lights a bit closer to the shelf.

I really dont think lying about 3 meters of LOA is going to cause problems for us , or the Esso Maru.

Amen

Lots of idiots er...uniformed boaters out there. I watch and watch and watch approaching vessels. If in doubt, sometimes I just take it out of gear rather than asserting my right of way. I would rather avoid a collision than assert my right of way...

Last night I was coming into Poulsbo around 8:00pm. Didn't see a 35' power boat anchored in front of the Marina entrance until I was about 30 yards away. I was heading right for it. No anchor light. As I went by I could see that there were folks in the saloon, they just didn't have, or didn't turn on their anchor light. It was very dark last night.

dhays said:

Last night I was coming into Poulsbo around 8:00pm. Didn't see a 35' power boat anchored in front of the Marina entrance until I was about 30 yards away. I was heading right for it. No anchor light. As I went by I could see that there were folks in the saloon, they just didn't have, or didn't turn on their anchor light. It was very dark last night.

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On the lake the bass boats would zoom around at 50 mph with no lights and their reason was they could see better that way. It just never crossed their minds that the lights were so they could be seen. We didn't boat at night and I do remember the one time we got caught by storms and it turned dark. Well, we never knew why we had radar on a bowrider, but we'd played with it. That night we were so happy to have it.

dhays said:

Last night I was coming into Poulsbo around 8:00pm. Didn't see a 35' power boat anchored in front of the Marina entrance until I was about 30 yards away. I was heading right for it. No anchor light....

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Without knowing the area, this picks up on earlier references to road events. It`s the unexpected act, legal or not, which catches others. Anchoring in front of a marina entrance is so silly(assuming it was not an emergency anchor drop, like a dead engine) it is well within "unexpected". Without an anchor light, they(and you) are lucky you were observant.

4 words RADAR

it's always on in low visibility conditions...

Ka_sea_ta said:

4 words RADAR

it's always on in low visibility conditions...

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Yup, the radar was on and I was trying to monitor it but there were lots of targets, including a sailboat in front of us that was heading in the same direction. I noticed the sailboats stern light disappear as they went on the other side of the anchored cruiser. Not sure I would have spotted the boat without that clue.

I just looked out in the harbor, there are at 6 boats anchored in our sight line. Out of the 6 boats only 1 has their anchor light on. unfortunately this seems pretty the norm around this area. The commercial boats will often come in here with their work lights on just to avoid these guys.... It may be that when you transverse these harbors at night it is with radar and a spot light both on....

saltcod said:

Lots of idiots er...uniformed boaters out there. I watch and watch and watch approaching vessels. If in doubt, sometimes I just take it out of gear rather than asserting my right of way. I would rather avoid a collision than assert my right of way...

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RIGHT ON, same here!

Ka_sea_ta said:

I just looked out in the harbor, there are at 6 boats anchored in our sight line. Out of the 6 boats only 1 has their anchor light on. unfortunately this seems pretty the norm around this area. The commercial boats will often come in here with their work lights on just to avoid these guys.... It may be that when you transverse these harbors at night it is with radar and a spot light both on....

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If the area you reference is a designated anchorage, you're not required to have an anchor light.

This isn't meant as a criticism of other postings above. However, I think it's always a good idea to compare our practices with what COLGREGS requires of us. In the case of having radar aboard, here's what Rule 7 states:


(a) Every vessel shall use all available means appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions to determine if risk of collision exists. If there is any doubt such risk shall be deemed to exist.

(b) Proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational, including long-range scanning to obtain early warning of risk of collision and radar plotting or equivalent systematic observation of detected objects.

(c) Assumptions shall not be made on the basis of scanty information, especially scanty radar information.

(d) In determining if risk of collision exists the following considerations shall be among those taken into account:

(i) Such risk shall be deemed to exist if the compass bearing of an approaching vessel does not appreciably change.
(ii) Such risk may sometimes exist even when an appreciable bearing change is evident, particularly when approaching a very large vessel or a tow or when approaching a vessel at close range.

In essence, if we have radar/AIS, etc. available, we're expected to use it all the time. I remember being surprised when I learned this while studying for my USCG ticket, since I rarely fired up the radar in clear conditions, especially on my sailboat (since sold.) On my trawler I turn everything on before making way.

Like all of you, I've had my share of close calls. We kept our sailboat in the BVI's, which is inundated with bareboat charterers, the vast majority of whom know nothing about COLREGS. The only solution there was to swallow my pride and just plan to give way if the burdened vessel didn't take appropriate action early on. You can usually tell who knows the rules and who doesn't. Sadly, many of them had no clue.

PS Our local lake where we keep our little O'Day sailboat is downright frightening. We have quit boating there on weekends, even though our local police and DNR folks try to control the chaos. I can't remember a summer when there wasn't a serious boating accident there, often resulting in a fatality. And of course, alcohol was often a contributing factor. (Probably equally true in the BVI's.)

Okay, I'll shut up.

foggysail said:

If the area you reference is a designated anchorage, you're not required to have an anchor light.

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IMO - Whenever anchored the anchor light should be a glow.

foggysail said:

If the area you reference is a designated anchorage, you're not required to have an anchor light.

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It is not a designated anchorage or mooring field. Actually not that many designated anchorages in Puget Sound.

foggysail said:

If the area you reference is a designated anchorage, you're not required to have an anchor light.

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This is just a small semi rural fishing village, maybe 2 miles long and 1/2 mile wide... Just a little smaller than the Poulsbo harbor which Dave originally referenced...

Captain Larry...I have heard this about RADAR before....

The consensus from lawyers, USCG that have been approached in Marine Safety, and loads of others is ....no...radar on our little boats is not expected to be on all the time.

The key words are.... "
(a) .........appropriate to the prevailing circumstances and conditions .......

Broad daylight and unlimited visibility in many places would not warrant the use of radar by a watch of one, often not specifically trained in its use.

The other giveaway to me is how many radars are out there, not being always operated, and yet I have never seen one thing in print saying that it is expected to be on all the time.

If you have found something out of the COLREGS that does address this in print....I would be interested in putting this debate to rest at some point.

Wow, 200+ posts. Amazing amount of talking for such a limited subject.

GFC said:

Wow, 200+ posts. Amazing amount of talking for such a limited subject.

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More %age chance to meet scary at night than during day.

GFC said:

Wow, 200+ posts. Amazing amount of talking for such a limited subject.

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Well....that's what happens when the Colregs are adapted to simplistic rhymes when all the rhymes are saying is really rule 2 of the regs....which any decent boater could call sea sense.

It takes that many posts for many to see that the huge disagreement is really just agreeing when you know the subject material and more importantly the components well enough...

Like many of you, and apparently your attorneys, I've questioned the verbiage about when you need to use radar, if you have it. The USCG has some additional verbiage about this in their FAQ's on their Navigation Center:


Am I required to have Radar?
Radar is not required on vessels under 1600 GT (33 CFR 164.35), however, Rule 7 states that proper use shall be made of radar equipment if fitted and operational. In other words, whoever has one must use it. The Navigation Rules are not meant to discourage the use of any device, rather they expect prudent mariners to avail themselves of all available means appropriate...as to make full appraisal of the situation (Rule 5), e.g. the use of radar. At issue is whether the use of radar is appropriate in the prevailing circumstances and that is a determination made by the Master; and, ultimately decided by a trier of fact.

Sentence #3: In other words, whoever has one must use it.

The things that changed my mind on this subject are, (1) Chapman School was very emphatic about this while I was studying to get my Masters rating, and (2) it was a test question on my USCG exam, (3) I've decided it's a CYA matter. If I should be involved in a collision and wasn't using my onboard radar, could a skillful attorney convince a jury that I hadn't abided by Rule 7.a and 7.b? I've never been in a collision, however, I've had two very close calls in the BVI's, one near a reef and one in a channel. In both cases I had the right of way but had to take extreme measures to avoid a collision.

I understand that each of us has our own interpretation of what's required by COLREGS and ultimately we're going to do what we believe is appropriate. To me, the prudent and easy thing is to simply turn on my radar whenever I'm making way.

I really enjoy the dialog and occasional debate which occurs on this site. I've been boating for a long time but continue to learn from the rest of you.

I taught captains licensing and am a pretty good source for crew resource management and risk management.

In a confined waterway in clear blue conditions, and relatively confined operating area and medium traffic conditions.....I can make a pretty good case where it is a distraction, more dangerous than looking outside for a short handed crew.

So I will continue to teach and profess that like all electronic navaids....in clear blue situations...they can be more dangerous than a help.

I lived it too many times with new skippers and copilots.

The USCG usually thinks in terms of commercial traffic...and anything less than 65 feet, most have a real hard time relating to us smaller guys.

They have 4 guys on a boat trying to do what BOATUS and Sea Tow do da in aND out.....most of the time their training gets in the way of what 1 guy with the right amount of experience can do.

For ships...sure, they have plenty of experience...short handed smaller vessels...they lack terribly.

I was operations office at a large USCG facility in charge of small boat stations and saw it every day, then an assistance tower that worked with them for 13 years.

So from an instructor, operator and outside supervisor.....I wholeheartedly say the more a recreational boater spends looking at electronics versus the outside aND understanding what they see...the more dangerous they are.

Even the USCG left in....up to the Master, then up to the courts to decide. That fully explains they don't have the "absolute correct" answer.

Even like the good Samaritan laws often turn up....if you are using it and have a collision...we're you formally trained to use it? There is too much to say whether it is required or nit...but because the USCG even in their facts leaves an out, as does the Colregs.....all the sources I trust say...it is still up to the Master...it is NOT a requirement.... done deal.

I understand that each of us has our own interpretation of what's required by COLREGS and ultimately we're going to do what we believe is appropriate. To me, the prudent and easy thing is to simply turn on my radar whenever I'm making way.

Captain Larry said:

I understand that each of us has our own interpretation of what's required by COLREGS and ultimately we're going to do what we believe is appropriate. To me, the prudent and easy thing is to simply turn on my radar whenever I'm making way.

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But when grilled on the stand in a maritime court...what is the average boater going to say about their use of radar?

Maybe you can defend yourself...but a decent expert witness will tear apart the average boar owner and their use of radar.

Whether one uses it or not is not the question...it's whether it is mandatory...and it isn't by the sheer weight that in every reference to it I have seen, including the Colregs, it refers to "prevailing conditions".

psneeld said:

I taught captains licensing and am a pretty good source for crew resource management and risk management.

In a confined waterway in clear blue conditions, and relatively confined operating area and medium traffic conditions.....I can make a pretty good case where it is a distraction, more dangerous than looking outside for a short handed crew.

So I will continue to teach and profess that like all electronic navaids....in clear blue situations...they can be more dangerous than a help.

So from an instructor, operator and outside supervisor.....I wholeheartedly say the more a recreational boater spends looking at electronics versus the outside aND understanding what they see...the more dangerous they are.

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Agreed!

One thing that all this points out too is the value of two people at the helm. That allows one to concentrate on what can be seen visually while the other is double checking with electronics. This isn't always a luxury we have, but it was one the OP had on this day. I'm guessing the sailboat could have had it as well. One of the two active helms persons on the OP's boat got distracted and "was pulled off the job." Don't know what was going on the sailboat.

When 10 miles offshore and nothing on the radar then there's a little opportunity for relaxing. However, when returning in the dark through a channel, that's the time I always want someone on watch right beside me. If there is a 1 in 100 chance of one person making a mistake, the odds of two persons doing so is 1 in 10,000.

Now, slightly off course for a moment. Boaters often say they don't single hand their boat simply because someone else is with them. Sometimes they say the other person helps with the lines when docking. If the other person, not in this case but just in common practice, is off baking cookies or doing the laundry, then you are single handing. Even if the second person has no training, they at least have eyes to pick up something you might miss.