Sad day

Wifey B: First, do not, and I repeat do not turn this into a political debate or who is right or who is wrong. That's not my intent. Keep that stuff to OTDE, please.

My hubby was born in Charlotte, NC. I moved in the area of Charlotte with him in 2001. We lived just north of Charlotte in the Lake Norman area. We still have some ties back there. We both went to college at UNCC in Charlotte, very close to the initial event. We've walked along the streets of the protests, riots and vandalism. We've been in many of the buildings. It's just sad for us to witness. There are no winners, we all lose. A lot has built to bring us to this point in Charlotte and elsewhere. I don't think without Tulsa there would have been the same Charlotte issues but that doesn't mean Charlotte had no problems. I don't like the fact that people from other cities are throwing more fuel on the fire. I don't like the fact that social media now makes it so easy to incite groups of people in ways that previously were difficult. Word sure gets around fast, right or wrong, fact or fiction, good and bad. But mostly, I'm just sad.

I'm sad that I've gotten calls from kids in the orphanage wanting to talk to us about it all and I'm sad that we worry about the kids from there attending UNCC today. Pleased at least the demonstration at UNCC was a peaceful two hour "lay in."

And anyone out there who thinks this couldn't happen where they live, think again. Charlotte is a great place to live with good people. Also, think of what you say or post if you do so on social media. Inflammatory posts increase problems rather than solving them. This isn't an event of hate in my mind but one of anger and fear and in some cases vengeance out of the anger.

I heard something described once as "displaced aggression" and found that an odd term. It isn't. It's when you take out your emotions on someone or something other than who you're really angry toward. There's a lot of anger about a lot of things. I've seen it on this forum. There are definitely things that make me angry. May I just be wise enough please to channel it to help rather than hurt. And at the same time I hope no one or action pushes me so far that I can't hold it back any longer. I don't ever post on social media, because I see so much ugliness there. I don't like ugly. I don't like name calling. I don't like gross generalizations. I do like people. Even perhaps some I shouldn't, but still do. I want to believe in them and try to even when events like this shake that belief.

Thanks for listening. I'm not often sad and I'm going to get back out and have fun now. There are a lot of people though that I'm still worried about and we came very close to leaving the boat and flying there just to be close to them. We may still do so. We spent Sunday there and flew out Monday morning.

WifeyB, I don't post on social media for similar reasons as you. It seems to be such a huge time hog with little real benefit.


As one who wore the blue uniform for many years this whole shooting thing saddens me. It seems that the threshold where officers feel threatened has dropped significantly. When they feel threatened they react. Sometimes with deadly force.


When I look with 20/20 hindsight at some of these shooting incidents and try to analyze them with an unbiased eye I cannot help but wonder two things: #1, why don't people do what the cops tell them, and #2 why do cops jump to deadly force so quickly?


It really can happen in anyone's home town as we saw in Feb, 2015 when local cops shot and killed a man who was throwing rocks at cars and pedestrians and, finally, at the cops.


Sad.

I have a hard time understanding why people don't obey the police. One only has to see one of these tragedies to realize bad things happen when you don't.

I also don't understand why governors don't deploy the national guard sooner. So much of the destruction and looting isn't out of anger but a free night of civil disobedience. We have laws against hate crimes; time to make looting and property destruction during a riot an automatic minimum sentence and out of state perpetrators ineligible for bonding out.

Ted

BandB said:

Wifey B: First, do not, and I repeat do not turn this into a political debate or who is right or who is wrong. That's not my intent. Keep that stuff to OTDE, please....

...Thanks for listening. I'm not often sad and I'm going to get back out and have fun now. There are a lot of people though that I'm still worried about and we came very close to leaving the boat and flying there just to be close to them. We may still do so. We spent Sunday there and flew out Monday morning.

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Wifey B...great post. I'd love to know you...and I mean that in the nicest possible way. I'm sure you were/are still a great teacher.

WifeB, it is yet another event that is tragic on so many levels. I hope that your home town finds peace quickly. Even more, I hope that our country can find a way to bridge the cultural disconnects which plague us.

I don't understand why they don't protest in front of the police station, or city hall? If I was unhappy with the way a Marina treated me I would not go protest and loot at Wal-Mart, I would go the Marina's office.


The whole time this has been going on I cant help but think it has nothing to do with the real issue but just a way for some to get free stuff by looting, and an opportunity for others to stir up trouble for there own reasons. I feel bad for the few people who are genuine and want to make a change and are caught between the bad apples thinking they have the same motivations.


I am sure that since Rodney King there have been some policy changes that were good and did help over the years, but the looting/protest/violence crowd seems to be very counter productive in their efforts. I would think it just makes the LEO community more on edge since they have no choice but to be ever aware those bad apples that want free stuff/or cause turmoil are just waiting to pounce on them at every turn to further their own goals.


At some point this nonsense needs to stop and I think that point is actually past, but we lack the political will or proper resources to deal with it and make it known this is not the correct way to conduct yourself, sadly good people will always get caught in the middle and will be made to suffer for those who do not care.

As a lifelong resident of NC, I'm ashamed to say how real the issues there are. I was talking this morning to a lifelong Fort Lauderdale resident who was basing his perspective on South Florida. Well, South Florida has the least prejudice I've ever witnessed, perhaps because there is such a mix of groups here from race to ethnicity to natural origin to sexual orientation to religion to anything. Well, NC is far worse that in the 90's. The governor and the issues bring back remembrances of the 80's and earlier to many who can remember those days. It's not just racial but it's tension, hate and bigotry alive and well of every type and it's fueled a lot of anger. Now, to that you add open carry laws for guns and that's without permits and as a cop you're scared. It was amazing during the march Wednesday night how many marchers were carrying guns. That led to the police firing tear gas before they might have otherwise done so, which led to the protesters going wild. Hatred begets hatred. Fear begets fear.

Now, on top of those legitimately protesting you obviously have others up to no good, taking advantage.

Unfortunately, I can't express much pride in my hometown right now. I haven't lived in downtown Charlotte since I turned 19 but lived in the suburbs. However, it's changed. There's more discord. There's more anger, more fear. It's not that Charlotte hasn't had it's issues in the past, just it got beyond them and this is a more recent turn back for the worse. Charlotte was once the east coast headquarters for both Hell's Angels and the Outlaws, but their leaders either ended up dead or in prison for killing the other and they faded from the scene.

I noticed the way Tulsa handled their killing. Far better than Charlotte. In Charlotte, the police leadership, the city leadership, and the black leadership all needs to ask themselves why.

We're flying tomorrow to spend the day with the kids at the orphanage, talk to those who go to UNCC, just be there. We won't, however, be in downtown Charlotte, or involved in solutions, just there to comfort and support those important to us for the day. Leaving Michigan at 6:00 AM and leaving Concord NC to return at 11:00 PM. We just feel the need to see them, not so much that they need us, but that we need them.

Gee...

Nothing happened in Oklahoma

Just saying

I'm pretty sure Florida's gun rights have a lot to do with the societal stability.

GFC said:

As one who wore the blue uniform for many years this whole shooting thing saddens me. It seems that the threshold where officers feel threatened has dropped significantly. When they feel threatened they react. Sometimes with deadly force.

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My great uncle was a State Trooper for almost 30 years. He told me he unholstered his gun in the line of duty only a handful of times, and never, thankfully, had to fire it. And I do recall him working many very long shifts dealing with protesters when they were building a nuclear power plant. They would try to climb the fences, but no violence. Times have certainly changed.

Warwgn said:

The whole time this has been going on I cant help but think it has nothing to do with the real issue but just a way for some to get free stuff by looting, and an opportunity for others to stir up trouble for there own reasons. I feel bad for the few people who are genuine and want to make a change and are caught between the bad apples thinking they have the same motivations.

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Sadly, I think it is akin to what happened in Baltimore. There wre serious, orgainized protest marches, but a few bad apples caused things to break down. there are some in our society, regardless of race, origin, etc., who will take advantage of a situation. Those are the ones who see the protestors as cover to get away with the vandalism and looting. Sadly, from what I see on line, many people want to paint everyone who was there with a single broad brush and that isn't the case as there are people who just want their voices to be heard. And, even more sadly, it is the few bad ones who drown out the voices and causes of those who care and just want to be heard.

Check out the prior arrest record for either of those two latest cases, and most others, long histories of violent crimes, and those are only the ones they got caught at. Not a reason to be "executed but it will give you an idea of the type of people law enforcement has to put up with all the time.

Wifey B: Yes, they face criminals. They're taught how to handle that. Tulsa case was clear, Charlotte isn't. However, the facts of the cases really are secondary to the emotions now. Both sides feel a lot of fear, anger, and sadness. Hopefully, the remainder of the protests in Charlotte will be peaceful. However, there is a next city. There are a lot of chasms to be bridged. We each have to work toward doing so. Right vs wrong? It's all wrong. Perceptions are just as important and sometimes more so than reality. We just have a lot of work to do. Each of us.

There's fair evidence to suggest that these riots are Soros festered and funded. There's a great amount of profit in social instability for the man and his mission. He's very good at what he does.

Some of the information, such as statements that 70% of those arrested were from out of state is unconfirmed and while it appears to have come from the police department, it actually came from the spokesman for the Fraternal Order of Police who has since said that he didn't actually have those numbers. Now, I have no doubt many were from outside Charlotte and led by activist groups. Most protests have always been that way. As to who funded any of them, I can speculate, but choose not to here.

Regardless, Charlotte does have some issues to address when all this is over, as do many places in the country. Can only hope they lead the way. Things have calmed down, we're about 15-20 miles from town right now. The kids in college said the campus was always calm. They joked that they were lazy protesters, doing a two hour "lay in". A Hispanic student told them that was a Siesta.

I don't think Charlotte would have gotten out of control if it hadn't been on the heels of Tulsa. Certainly the family on Facebook incited a lot of people as well. Social media is playing a huge role in unrest, in confrontations.

There are many people who try to incite rather than calm and that's unfortunate. Meanwhile attempts to make peaceful statements haven't been well received due to the manner they were made. Hopefully, we'll start to talk about some of these things and find better solutions. That's what one tries to do in anything, recognize the issues and problems and take positive steps. If I could just put the kids I listened to today in charge, we'd make real progress.

They refreshed us both today. They're so good and when other things in the world aren't as good as we wish, they renew our energy and hope. I just did get destroyed in a video bowling game though and now my wife is losing at video tennis. We're better in the sports than we are playing them on video games.

FlyWright said:

There's fair evidence to suggest that these riots are Soros fostered and funded.

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(Al, note I changed "festered" to "fostered")
Why? How is there a profit in promoting riots?

BruceK said:

(Al, note I changed "festered" to "fostered")
Why? How is there a profit in promoting riots?

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I will keep this short, but you cannot keep politics out of any discussion about Charlotte. The answer to your question is that promoting riots, promotes a radical political agenda. To see the end result all you have to do is study history. George Soros has made a fortune out of currency manipulation that was enabled by political unrest.

MichaelH said:

I will keep this short, but you cannot keep politics out of any discussion about Charlotte. The answer to your question is that promoting riots, promotes a radical political agenda. To see the end result all you have to do is study history. George Soros has made a fortune out of currency manipulation that was enabled by political unrest.

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iirc, he was convicted of insider trading in France. He has made a huge amount of money in currency because some countries do silly things with their economy, but that isn't really currency manipulation. The only activist group that he has financially supported (outside of the Democratic Party) I think is the Black Lives Matter movement. So unless you are suggesting that he is selling US$ short in hopes that the BLM movement causes a crash of the US dollar I think this is just another conspiracy theory.

But doesn't he have some giant Yacht?

Wifey B: I disagree on politics. You can keep it out to just say you feel sad over the situation. The kids sure discussed the subject without interjecting politics quite well. Is it a politically charged issue? Of course. However, what we felt was far more basic. Sadness. Sad for the protesters and the black constituency, sad for law enforcement, sad for the leaders, and sad for the community at large. Then it becomes a matter of how to reduce the probability of future similar events. That will take steps by all.

An update today and that is a large police group in riot gear outside the stadium for the football game, but last I saw only about 24 protesters, though I'm sure it will build. However, my favorite of all was three young black men holding posters reading "God is Love" and advertising free hugs. Apparently quite a few fans were taking advantage of the offer, both Vikings and Panthers fans.

I've put a lot of thought into these episodes, and will just throw them out there:

The cops really do seem quick to react with lethal force. In some cases, they were following the "rules of engagement", in others rules were broken. But in most cases, there probably were other ways of handling the situation that would have had a better outcome without presenting much more risk to the officers.

So I think the inner city folk do have some legitimate gripes.

But the inner cities truly are violent. The cops are justified to be quick to react as to not would put them at risk. Hyper vigilant cops creates more friction with the citizens, and that friction reduces trust in both directions.

The cops should do a better job of de-escalating situations.

And the inner city communities need to do a better job of controlling themselves. If BLM and other leaders and protesters spent one tenth of the effort of protesting on controlling the violent elements in their midst, this situation would take care of itself.

We had a rental house nearby that was housing some known to have a criminal bent. These folks were shunned and eventually left, some to jail, some on their own. A community should not tolerate criminals and it is the community's job to handle that, not the police. The community knows who the trouble makers are. Shunning is a powerful tool.

It is sad that our country is still so divided along racial lines. It was always there I guess, but lately certain groups have been more open about voicing their displeasure with people of other races and religions.

Maybe racism is human nature on some biological level.

cardude01 said:

It is sad that our country is still so divided along racial lines. It was always there I guess, but lately certain groups have been more open about voicing their displeasure with people of other races and religions.

Maybe racism is human nature on some biological level.

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I think our primitive "lizard" brain has tribal elements hard wired into it.

We prefer our biological family over anyone else, the ultimate tribe, and that fits the definition of "discrimination". No one frowns upon that discrimination, why???

We descriminate against folks from other countries, yet that is considered acceptable.

I like hanging out with other engineers over hanging out with say, sociologists. Unless they are cute girls, of course.

People like hanging out with those of similar religions, that is ok.

Folks hiring often have a preference for alumni of their school, that is sort of tolerated...

So it is probably human nature to have some preference to those of the same "race". Is that being a "racist"? Fits the definition.

Just folks being tribal. Not sure how that can be changed...

Ski in NC said:

I've put a lot of thought into these episodes, and will just throw them out there:

The cops really do seem quick to react with lethal force. In some cases, they were following the "rules of engagement", in others rules were broken. But in most cases, there probably were other ways of handling the situation that would have had a better outcome without presenting much more risk to the officers.

So I think the inner city folk do have some legitimate gripes.

But the inner cities truly are violent. The cops are justified to be quick to react as to not would put them at risk. Hyper vigilant cops creates more friction with the citizens, and that friction reduces trust in both directions.

The cops should do a better job of de-escalating situations.

And the inner city communities need to do a better job of controlling themselves. If BLM and other leaders and protesters spent one tenth of the effort of protesting on controlling the violent elements in their midst, this situation would take care of itself.

We had a rental house nearby that was housing some known to have a criminal bent. These folks were shunned and eventually left, some to jail, some on their own. A community should not tolerate criminals and it is the community's job to handle that, not the police. The community knows who the trouble makers are. Shunning is a powerful tool.

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Excellent post Ski.

Wifey B: One thing that always increases racism is a poor economy, especially impacting those at lower mid range or below. Terrorism has increased bigotry.

We all have prejudices, many quite justified and not at all illegal. It's knowing what prejudice is justified and which isn't. I'm prejudiced against McDonalds as I don't like their food. I still imagine the pink slime in their hamburgers, although it's gone. However, I'm not prejudiced based on those things that are illegal and, in my opinion, uncalled for. I love people.

Sometimes in life it's one issue that turns us, one event. The three young men giving away hugs probably touched someone today in a positive way. My hubby's family that we have nothing really to do with lives in other parts of NC and is filled with hate for blacks, hispanics, muslims, jews, indians, gays, tattoos, and many other things. They present themselves as very religious and they're extremely narrowminded. My hubby's parents were prejudiced but always treated others differently and carried no hate. Then why isn't my hubby like his relatives. Partly, he grew up in Charlotte and while he lived in an all white neighborhood, he went to school in a mixed school. He went to a very mixed college. But he points to one thing in his childhood, a maid who worked for his family for 15 years. He spent far more time growing up around Martha than his mother or father. He loved her. So, as a white child, he loved a black woman and wouldn't have dared seen her hurt. Therefore, he couldn't hate all blacks. One person influence his life greatly even though she was in a stereotypical black maid for white family role.

I think humans evolve but events seem to sometimes turn them into their less evolved ways, tribal or whatever one labels them. When scared you last out and many people today are scared when not even schools or malls feel safe. The 9/11 events shattered feelings of being safe on US soil.

Charlotte's events built off of others. Ferguson really set things off. Then last week you had Tulsa. When you see Ferguson and Tulsa and some of the others, you get scared in Charlotte. Police see Dallas and other police shootings and they get scared.

If you're out walking and someone approaches you who you find scary, what do you do? Driving in a scary neighborhood? You try to avoid. I don't know what it feels like to be a policeman in the situation of Charlotte. I am sure much is based on prior events. I don't know what it feels like to get stopped or approached by a policeman if you're black. I listen, and I'm glad not to be in either's position. The fact they both feel fear says we have issues.

BandB said:

Wifey B: One thing that always increases racism is a poor economy, especially impacting those at lower mid range or below. Terrorism has increased bigotry.

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You can also add racial preferencing or reverse discrimination to things that promote racism. When you advantage one group over another to correct theoretical historical injustices, you only stoke the fires of racism. It's no surprise that race conflict is much worse now that it was 8 years ago.

Ted

I suspect racial conflict has much to do with world overpopulation causing competition for available territory. Human nature being what it is, I don`t see population reducing, the desire to reproduce is intrinsic. Hard to see a solution, except as opined by Malthus.
Hope this this not seen as political, it has been an exemplary discussion so far.

BruceK said:

I suspect racial conflict has much to do with world overpopulation causing competition for available territory. Human nature being what it is, I don`t see population reducing, the desire to reproduce is intrinsic. Hard to see a solution, except as opined by Malthus.
Hope this this not seen as political, it has been an exemplary discussion so far.

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Wifey B: Well, the fact some groups have more kids than others sure contributes to a changing demographic in the US. Also the fact that over 40% of births are to unmarried women plays a role in society, although hard to tell how much of that change is those in long term relationships vs those alone.