Battery power for home during power outage

tcpip95 said:

Yes, am familiar with them word-for-word. I'm one of the original owners when these condos were built back in 2002, and have been cover-to-cover on them. Here's the actual by-law:

Standard #16 GENERATORS
Rules for Emergency Generators:
a. Generators will only be permitted for emergency power only.
b. Generators may only be used during named storms or disaster power outages.
c. Generators may only be used in the location of the resident’s driveway, with a minimum distance of 10-feet from the building.
d. Generator size shall be no larger than 15KW.
e. Generators may not be installed for permanent use or have any outlets installed into the building.
f. Generators will not be operated between the hours of 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m.
g. Unit owners are responsible for ensuring safe operation of their generators and safe storage of generator fuel.
(Adopted by the Board of Directors 10-02-06)

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HOAs are designed to help ensure that the residents of the community have a positive living experience. I generally think that those that serve on HOA boards are trying to do the best job they can to serve the needs of the entire community.

I"m assuming that the HOA was formed in 2002 when the condos were built. Since this rule was adopted 4 years later it implies that one of two things happened. Most likely, there was an incident that upset a board member or a community member who then caused the board to adopt this rule. Alternatively, the board could have found this rule while examining other HOA rules during a periodic review of their own covenants and thought it sounded like a good idea. In either case, the board felt that the rule would improve the quality of life in the community and help reduce neighbor conflicts, both good things.

HOA covenants are not like the rules brought down from Mt. Sinai, they aren't written in stone and HOAs have a process for modifying them. Before spending lots of money, this is the approach I would take.

The current HOA rules have a couple key problems. The most obvious is that rule a and b make no provision for firing up a generator to ensure that it works, nor to test an electrical install necessary to make the use of a generator safe. Smart homeowners will pay an electrician to install a panel that will allow them to safely run a generator to power their home. (I was not one of those and simply closed the breaker to the muni power and plugged my generator into an outside outlet. I don't recommend this.) An electrician will need to power up the generator to test the install once completed. This would violate the rule. It also would make testing the generator to ensure that it starts and runs a violation of the rule if there isn't a named storm present or the power is out.

Rule C means that a generator must be moved before it can be used. This may not be possible for all residents depending on their age or physical ability. It also presupposes that a resident's driveway would be clear 10' away from the building in the event of a major storm. We don't know if these condos are free-standing homes, duplexes etc... but a major storm can make quite a mess and could make moving a generator from a garage or storage shed to a driveway all but impossible. This rule would preclude a very nice professional installation of an emergency generator in some other location that could be safer, quieter, and more accessible in the event of an emergency.

Rule C and E combined mean that power cords will have to be used that will be exposed to the elements. We are used to those with our shore power cords, but not every resident will be and with storms often come rain and flooding.

Rule F means that anyone that requires constant power for health related appliances can't run a generator at night. This could be anything from AC required for someone with fragile health (excessive heat can be hard on the heart), a CPAP machine, refrigeration for certain meds that need to be kept cold, and I'm sure other potential situations that I can't think of. Not sure of the topography in your area, but it also means that emergency pumps may not be able to be used at night if they are powered by a generator, increasing the damage caused by flooding, a common issue in major storms.

I would bring these problems to the HOA board and see if they can modify the rules. A decibel limit at the property line for both day and night would be an easy way to do it. There are some loud window AC units out there, use the loudest as the max sound level at night from a generator. If rule C is altered, it would be easy to install the genset in a sound enclosure to make it very quiet indeed.

You may also point out that another option would be to install a large bank of lithium batteries. I hear that Samsung has a bunch they need to get rid of. High energy density, but with a bad habit of catching fire.

This is not a difficult eletrical problem to solve.

You need to supply household loads overnight.

You need a inverter/charger just like on your boat. Choose a brand. Oversize the inverter to provide compressor starting capability. For the loads you mentioned I'd go with a 3,000 amp inverter.

Put in a battery bank of suitable size. Your predicted loads are about 1,000 amp hours. Buying a bank of twice that size is probably a good idea for allot of reasons.

Install a sub panel in your home which will be your "inverter panel"

If you have a whole house ATS then your generator, or utility power will automatically charge your batteries.

Easy Peasy

I suspect that, if challenged in court, the rule about not running a generator at night would be overturned. This has happened in the past with HOA rules that prohibited specific kinds of noise. The courts found that you can set a general limit on how loud a noise you will allow, but you cannot say "this type of noise is prohibited while other types of noise (even though they are louder) are permitted."

ksanders said:

This is not a difficult eletrical problem to solve.

You need to supply household loads overnight.

You need a inverter/charger just like on your boat. Choose a brand. Oversize the inverter to provide compressor starting capability. For the loads you mentioned I'd go with a 3,000 amp inverter.

Put in a battery bank of suitable size. Your predicted loads are about 1,000 amp hours. Buying a bank of twice that size is probably a good idea for allot of reasons.

Install a sub panel in your home which will be your "inverter panel"

If you have a whole house ATS then your generator, or utility power will automatically charge your batteries.

Easy Peasy

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Again, it would be much less expensive and complicated just to go to a motel when and if the outage ever happens when it's too hot to sleep in the house. Think about it.

dwhatty said:

Disregarding the cost, would something like a Tesla Powerwall do it?

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I don't think tesla powerwall is shipping yet. My mother has one on order for her solar installation...

Inquire if it is prohibited or has a noise limit. Generac has some natural gas gen sets for homes with noise enclosures that may work. Burning CNG is quieter than diesel and easier to silence.

stubones99 said:

I don't think tesla powerwall is shipping yet. My mother has one on order for her solar installation...

Inquire if it is prohibited or has a noise limit. Generac has some natural gas gen sets for homes with noise enclosures that may work. Burning CNG is quieter than diesel and easier to silence.

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I believe the OP posted the covenants and your suggestion would not be permitted.

Standard #16 GENERATORS
Rules for Emergency Generators:
a. Generators will only be permitted for emergency power only.
b. Generators may only be used during named storms or disaster power outages.
c. Generators may only be used in the location of the resident’s driveway, with a minimum distance of 10-feet from the building.
d. Generator size shall be no larger than 15KW.
e. Generators may not be installed for permanent use or have any outlets installed into the building.
f. Generators will not be operated between the hours of 10:00 p.m. to 6:00 a.m.
g. Unit owners are responsible for ensuring safe operation of their generators and safe storage of generator fuel.
(Adopted by the Board of Directors 10-02-06)

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GFC said:

Have you actually read the HOA's rules about running generators instead of relying on rumors and word of mouth info?


The reason I ask is that we live in a subdivision with a strong HOA. For many years the word on the street was that they prohibited swimming pools. They wouldn't allow them because they have rules against the type/size of fences in the sub. The rules limited fences to 4' tall.


I checked state codes and the codes required a 5' fence. I also checked the HOA rules and there was no mention of swimming pools, just the fence issue. A check with the state disclosed that the HOA could not prohibit fences over 4' when a swimming pool was installed.


I got my ducks in a row, had all my drawings and the applicable state and city codes about fences around pools and went to an HOA board meeting. I presented all my info and told them "Everything I have done is IAW state law and the rules this HOA has in writing as of today. If you deny this application we WILL end up in court and I WILL prevail."


We sure are enjoying our pool, and one of our neighbors is also building one.

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Excellent point. The provision may well be something like "running a generator at night disturbing other neighbors" or "that can be heard". Ultimately, if there was a hurricane and I had a generator, I'd run it and I'd also use it to the benefit of my neighbors. I can't imagine that being a problem and I have no idea what your HOA says they can do if you do it. What's the penalty? A warning? They tell you not to? A $100 fine the second time? Not like they can order you to move or something.

BandB said:

Excellent point. The provision may well be something like "running a generator at night disturbing other neighbors" or "that can be heard". Ultimately, if there was a hurricane and I had a generator, I'd run it and I'd also use it to the benefit of my neighbors. I can't imagine that being a problem and I have no idea what your HOA says they can do if you do it. What's the penalty? A warning? They tell you not to? A $100 fine the second time? Not like they can order you to move or something.

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The covenants have been posted here several times including directly above your post. It might help to read them.

The penalty? That depends again on the covenants. Possibly a fine, possibly taking the violator to court, incurring court costs and resulting in an injunction.

BandB said:

Excellent point. The provision may well be something like "running a generator at night disturbing other neighbors" or "that can be heard". Ultimately, if there was a hurricane and I had a generator, I'd run it and I'd also use it to the benefit of my neighbors. I can't imagine that being a problem and I have no idea what your HOA says they can do if you do it. What's the penalty? A warning? They tell you not to? A $100 fine the second time? Not like they can order you to move or something.

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In general it is often better to find a way to happily get along with your neighbors. Even if you "win", or only have to pay a nominal fine, there is a cost in your relationship with your community.

WesK said:

The covenants have been posted here several times including directly above your post. It might help to read them.

The penalty? That depends again on the covenants. Possibly a fine, possibly taking the violator to court, incurring court costs and resulting in an injunction.

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I see the covenants, missed seeing them earlier. My mistake.

As to the penalty, I don't know what the agreement allows. However, in most cases a convenant violation requires a written notice from the Board by certified mail and then allows 30 days from that date for abatement or remedy. So, written notice not to do it, you stop, the end.

Sometimes fines are allowed but typically from $50-100 per day. Without seeing something unique in his Covenants I'd still find it unlikely that the penalty is severe. There is no going to court until after the 30 days or the fine isn't paid. An injunction only applies to future and is highly unlikely.

I'm not suggesting something that harms neighbors or inconveniences them. I am suggesting that there may be circumstances that the gain is worth the penalty, especially if neighbors acquiesce.

Certainly the severity of the storm is important so it's all speculative and unlikely. Still, with a working generator, I wouldn't go to the time, effort and financial trouble of devising another solution.

I have one question and that is what powers his generator and what duration of time does he have fuel for it. Many are fueled with natural gas piped in and sometimes in bad storms gas is quickly shut off to avoid leaks and other issues.

dhays said:

In general it is often better to find a way to happily get along with your neighbors. Even if you "win", or only have to pay a nominal fine, there is a cost in your relationship with your community.

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Note that in all circumstances I said talk to your neighbors, the ones who would be impacted and get their support. So, I'd cover neighbors. As to the Commandos who would come from blocks away to complain you were in violation, getting along with them isn't very important to me. I've seen some crazy Condo Commando action in South Florida.

Frankly, if I was in that HOA I'd try to get that covenant reversed. It says passed by the board so I'm wondering if it was an original covenant or one later added.

Our HOA is voluntary and the biggest argument they've had was over a former head of the HOA painting the bridges and many didn't like the color. Current topic is underground wiring and as that requires 100% agreement, is not likely ever to take place.

I have a Westinghouse WH7500 gasoline powered generator. 7,500w continuous, 9,000w peak. It feeds in to a Reliance Controls 310A Pro/Tran 2 manual transfer switch via a NMEA L14-30 feed. The generator has 4 x 120v 5-20R outlets and 1 x 120/240v L14-30R twist outlet.

Batteries would be MightyMax 12v 100ah ML100-12 SLA (x 6).

The inverter would probably be the Xantrex Freedom HF 1800.

From a connection standpoint, would I use one of the 5-20R 120v outlets to feed the AC side of the inverter to feed the Xantrex?

tcpip95 said:

I have a Westinghouse WH7500 gasoline powered generator. 7,500w continuous, 9,000w peak. It feeds in to a Reliance Controls 310A Pro/Tran 2 manual transfer switch via a NMEA L14-30 feed. The generator has 4 x 120v 5-20R outlets and 1 x 120/240v L14-30R twist outlet.

Batteries would be MightyMax 12v 100ah ML100-12 SLA (x 6).

The inverter would probably be the Xantrex Freedom HF 1800.

From a connection standpoint, would I use one of the 5-20R 120v outlets to feed the AC side of the inverter to feed the Xantrex?

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How long could it power your house based on fuel there?

I would have 50 gallons of fuel on hand; expected run time at 50% load is 12 hours. With 6.6 gal tank, equates to about 0.5 GPH. Running 16 hrs per day breaks down to about 5 days. If I couldn't find refills within that time locally, we'd probably bug out as we'd be in deep doggie doo by that time.

Could stretch that out if needed.

EDIT: Actually, the more I do the math, the lower I would see my consumption. When I tested the system, I was only running at about 30% load with everything running (except the stove). The house A/C is NOT run off of the generator. So I would expect to get another day or possibly two of run time.

OK...

We have two diesel generators that automatically start in the event of a power outage. If the first one picks up the load properly then the second one shuts down a few minutes later.

These run the entire property. House, garage, shop, etc...

From power off, to full power back on is approx 3.5 seconds.

We have enough fuel to last much longer than we realistically need, but its hard to get fuel delivered unless you are buying several hundred gallons.

When the power goes out we also get an email, indicating the outage and the generator status. We can also see our voltage, current, frequency using a web browser.

In all fairness though, I do this for a living... so its easy to spend company money.

In my opinion gasoline is a poor fuel for a standby generator. It has a very short shelf life. Gasoline generators are also prone to be hard to start if they sit unused for long periods of time.

My generator will run on gasoline, natural gas, or propane. I've never put gasoline in it and I've got about a weeks supply of propane stored in a ventilated shed. It will never go bad. I start it once a year at the start of the hurricane season.

Diesel is also a good option as it can be stored for long periods of time.

HopCar said:

In my opinion gasoline is a poor fuel for a standby generator. It has a very short shelf life. Gasoline generators are also prone to be hard to start if they sit unused for long periods of time.

My generator will run on gasoline, natural gas, or propane. I've never put gasoline in it and I've got about a weeks supply of propane stored in a ventilated shed. It will never go bad. I start it once a year at the start of the hurricane season.

Diesel is also a good option as it can be stored for long periods of time.

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All of that may be true, however since I already have the investment I'm limited to working with what I've got.

The gas will always be fresh as I can simply put the fuel into the wife's car and refill the gas cans with fresh fuel as needed.

tcpip95 said:

All of that may be true, however since I already have the investment I'm limited to working with what I've got.

The gas will always be fresh as I can simply put the fuel into the wife's car and refill the gas cans with fresh fuel as needed.

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I must ask this. Where do you store the gasoline?

BandB said:

I must ask this. Where do you store the gasoline?

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When I have the cans filled, they are outside. I only keep one filled when we're not in any severe weather threats. In the event of a storm, they'll be filled and inside the garage. Once the storm is passed, they'll be outside again.

Oddly enough, there is no HOA rule about this. There is however a rule against storing propane tanks for BBQ grills.

tcpip95 said:

When I have the cans filled, they are outside. I only keep one filled when we're not in any severe weather threats. In the event of a storm, they'll be filled and inside the garage. Once the storm is passed, they'll be outside again.

Oddly enough, there is no HOA rule about this. There is however a rule against storing propane tanks for BBQ grills.

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Were I your neighbor I would find this far more disturbing than your generator.

BandB said:

Were I your neighbor I would find this far more disturbing than your generator.

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Yeah, I hear ya.

"I've got about a weeks supply of propane stored in a ventilated shed."

Hopefully the gen set and fuel are above any hurricane flooding.

The newest FEMA suggestion is to mount the gen set in the attic , and the propane to a heavy concrete pad , so 100-200G wont just float away.

"Evacuating in place" is the gov concept.

"The newest FEMA suggestion is to mount the gen set in the attic"
Is that true?? That does sounds like something from the gov't. Unfortunately why would you need a generator if everything else in your house is flooded? No fridge, no freezer, no air conditioners, everything flooded and ruined. But my generator up in the attic runs!

Man, whoever suggests putting a propane fueled genset in an attic needs to be dope-slapped. So wrong on many levels...

In my and my folks place, we have provisions to rig the gennie and hoist it up to the floor joists above should flooding be imminent.

We too tend to shelter in place, even if that means some risk. Mostly because the gov't knuckleheads prevent returning in a timely fashion. "It's not safe..." Oh pleeeaasse... They don't realize that by sticking to a "zero risk" policy regarding and thus delaying return, they are encouraging folks to take large risks by staying put. Knuckleheads.

Rant off...

Seems like the knuckleheads are those that build (or allow building to take place) in areas that are known to flood. ?

Of course, recent storms have caused flooding in areas that have not flooded in the past. A friend of mine was flooded out during Sandy on the Jersey shore. He rebuilt up on stilts putting his car parking underneath.

If my generator goes underwater, the house is not safe to have electricity. I'll have to leave. Youre not suggesting that the generator be run in the attic are you?

I'm sitting in the dark as I type this. The transformer on the pole outside my house exploded a while ago. It will take the power company several hours to replace it. I sure wish I had one of those whole house generators that start automatically when the power goes off. 62% battery left in the pad.

I'm sure it is no consolation, but it is not transformers that make that bang, but a fuse. The fuse wire is surrounded with explosive so it blows out any arc that might start. Explosive fuses. Means there is a fault or short down the line. Like a squirrell on an insulator.

At least it is fall so it is not so hot. Just kidding, I know sfl.

Thanks Ski, sounds like a fuse will be easier to fix. I think I hear a truck out there now.

Power is back on. I shouted "thank you" out the window. A you're welcome came back from the top of the pole. He said a palm frond had fallen on it. He confirmed it was the fuse.