Magnetic vs Electronic Compass

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If the North Koreans launch something, as I am happily negotiating a fog bank out on the lake...

I don't expect Uncle Sam will leave those GPS signals functional with an incoming...

That's just my luck... a boring old fashioned compass will remain in a place of honour up there on the horizontal at the helm.

Your mileage may vary...

RB
 
Do y'all even know what a heading is??? A course? Magnetic??? True???? I think that is the issue with this discussion. There are some semantics involved.
 
Everything electrical or electronic in a marine environment eventually fails.
 
Do y'all even know what a heading is??? A course? Magnetic??? True???? I think that is the issue with this discussion. There are some semantics involved.


As I read the last 20 comments this seems to be the best comment. There are about 20 NEMA sentences possible for either IN or OUT

Most recreational boats I have been on (either as guest or to help a new owner) have gps operating as out of the box with little (or none) adjustments to tweak it.

The gps heading output is adjustable from wildly responsive to dampened down so much it is seconds or half a minute delayed in response.

But the use of instant heading versus dampened is taken advantage of differently when at high speed versus slow speed. But I have not seen a GPS unit that is easily switchable between the two ( and fewer operators who know the difference)

Have you ever seen a boat on a ais equipped plotter with its heading gyrating wildly? That is a boat that has NO dampening set up in GPS heading data. Or it could be a boat with the GPS antenna with a really highly mount (mast head or high whip). Conversely a boat on a plotter with a heading that has already changed course and is still showing the original heading? That is over damped and is too slow.


The mentioned 'satellite' compass' are simply GPS heading sensors. They work great for heading. But I'd rather have a standalone fluxgate or gyro. And a GPS for cmg.
 
Interesting discussion. I have six GPS receivers on my vessel. When at anchor they do little to tell me what direction is north. Picture leaving an anchorage in the fog and dark when pulling up anchor. The oil filled compass is an a$$ saver in this event.

I have two electronic compasses, one flux gate and the other rate compensated. You got it, they seldom agree on heading or cmg. Then trying to get AIS trying to agree with AARPA. Hah, too much data. ?
 
While I agree with Bakers comment too....

How many here understand the difference between ssatellite compasses and electronic compasses (flux and rate)?

And while single gps units look like they are providing heading or bearing lines...is is really just a representation of direction of travel, not the head of the boat.

As to true or magnetic, depends on what you have selected.

I havent stayedcreal caught up on the advancements in GPS positioning for the last few years but.... boats at rest without a satellite compass will give jumping COGs, with or without much dampening. Not sure how dampening filters have evolved, but any random displacement from position errors will cause the jump, filters at best might just slow it down.
 
GPS heading sensors use either two or three GPS receivers and do give heading. They are shaped like a big banana or a large triangular antenna. They do give heading whether moving or not. The problem with them is: They need completely unobstructed sight at all times and the resulting location is almost invariably very high. Which makes them liable to the oscillation which makes the heading jump. But if you dampen it down it is unresponsive when maneuvering.
 
but I can assure you that a normal Garmin GPSMAP system definitely displays heading information. In fact, if you will look at the screen, it displays both GPS Heading and Heading (from the N2K interfaced Simrad RC36 rate compass - part of the AP26 Autopilot) and both can be configured to display direction True or Magnetic. This is a very common setup.

So your actual heading in that case is coming from the magnetic field driven rate compass, NOT GPS!



GPS heading sensors use either two or three GPS receivers and do give heading. They are shaped like a big banana or a large triangular antenna. They do give heading whether moving or not. The problem with them is: They need completely unobstructed sight at all times and the resulting location is almost invariably very high. Which makes them liable to the oscillation which makes the heading jump. But if you dampen it down it is unresponsive when maneuvering.

Now you are talking about $atellite compa$$/heading $ensor$, not the GPS plotter virtually all cruising boats have. Important to make the distinction to newbies.
 
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Yes, tons of confusion here, partly because of terminology, and partly due to misunderstanding of various pieces of equipment. Here's some of the confusion I'm reading:

- Some people are using the term "GPS" or "GPS map" to refer to a chart plotter. We can thank the automotive GPSs for this since on cars the GPS and charting (mapping) are a single unit and have come to be called a GPS. And to fuel the fire, many marine chart plotters now include an integrated GPS sensor too.

- We would talk across each other much less is we referred to our chart plotter and our GPS as separate devices/functions.

- A GPS gives position, of course, but it also give course over ground (COG) and speed over ground (SOG).

- COG and heading (HDG) are different. They differ by the effects of current, wind, etc.

- It hasn't come up yet, but SOG is different than STW (speed through water) for the same reason that COG and HDG are different.

- It's a little unclear what an "electronic" compass is. It probably means a fluxgate or rate compass.

- A rate compass and a flux gate compass are magnetic heading devices, though solid state. They report magnetic heading (HDG), and sometimes rate of turn (ROT). Some even report pitch and roll.

- A Sat compass is both a GPS and a heading sensor. It reports all the usual GPS data (COG, SOG, position), plus it reports all the usual heading sensor data like HDG, ROT, and pitch/roll.

- A Sat Compass includes 2 or more GPS receivers, and uses them to compute the heading. It is very accurate - more accurate than the best rate compass. All the sat compasses I'm familiar with also include a rate compass that is used to stabilize the GPS derived heading, and provide very rapid and accurate changes to heading. It also preserves heading through GPS outages like when passing under a bridge.

- A Sat Compass can report true heading where a fluxgate or rate compass can only report magnetic heading. In many, if not most cases, this doesn't matter. Other devices will often know and share the local variation so true heading can be computed and displayed if desired. But this matters when you get into commercial equipment, several of which require true heading (HDT) directly from the heading device. Class A AIS is an example, along with any IMO certified radar. These devices require a Sat Compass or a Gyro.

- A GPS can not report meaningful COG when there is no movement, or little movement.

- A heading sensor can report HDG regardless of boat movement.

- Every chart plotter that I have seen can display both COG and HDG. They can display it numerically in a data box, and graphically as part of the boat icon. Some display two different colored vectors emerging from the bow of the icon, one showing COG and the other showing HDG. Others show COG with a vector, and skew the boat icon itself to represent the heading. When you are in a strong cross current these can be significantly different. I have seen a difference of 15-20 degrees on a number of occasions.

- Auto pilots work much better with a heading sensor vs GPS COG. In fact, I think they all REQUIRE a heading sensor and will not work on COG.

- Radar overlay on a chart plotter often requires HDG. So consumer plotters will use COG, but HDG works much better, and some plotters will only provide overlay if HDG is available.

- ARPA/MARPA on a radar also requires HDG.

- You do not NEED a heading sensor to navigate. GPS will work fine. But lots of things will work much better if you have a heading sensor, and some things will only work if you have a heading sensor.

Sorry for being pedantic here. I know lots of people understand all this, but there is also clearly some misunderstanding about what the various devices do and what they enable.
 
I use a quality hand bearing compass that is easy to create a dev card for .

It is used to then use the big compass as a steering unit.

Works as well with the Auto pilot with electric compass.
 
Yes, tons of confusion here, partly because of terminology, and partly due to misunderstanding of various pieces of equipment. Here's some of the confusion I'm reading:

- A rate compass and a flux gate compass are magnetic heading devices, though solid state. They report magnetic heading (HDG), and sometimes rate of turn (ROT). Some even report pitch and roll.

- A GPS can not report meaningful COG when there is no movement, or little movement.

- A heading sensor can report HDG regardless of boat movement.

Sorry for being pedantic here. I know lots of people understand all this, but there is also clearly some misunderstanding about what the various devices do and what they enable.

twisted... Well said

- many folks refer to their chart plotter / MFD as the GPS when in fact they are very different. They have the ability to display lots of info from many sources / sensors including depth & engine data but GPS's can't report depth or engine data either.
Unless/until you add sensors a chart plotter w/ built in GPS provides basic GPS info only COG, SOG, CMG, etc

From the Garmin site...
Heading sensor recommendation for use with Garmin chartplotters
Garmin recommends that customers use an Marine Heading Sensor with their Garmin Marine Chartplotter.
This heading sensor can be connected to a chartplotter using either NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000.
By adding a heading sensor, the chartplotter will have the ability to provide a true heading at all times. Without a heading sensor, the chartplotter will rely on a GPS heading which will only be accurate when the boat is moving. With GPS heading only and while the boat is not moving, the chartplotter will be unable to determine its true heading.
 
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You have a compass input and most GPS maps don't. You only get heading from a compass... nothing else. I'd bet that 99.9% of the GPS maps out there do NOT have heading input. It does not come with the unit.

I have a Garmin 4208 and 740s.. neither have heading.

This is a very confusing statement, and I think illustrates why we are talking across each other.

When you refer to a "GPS map", I think you mean a chart plotter. Your Garmin 4208 is such a chart plotter. It accepts a variety of sensor inputs, and uses them to display a chart and your position/progress across that chart.

One of the inputs to the chart plotter is indeed a GPS. This device listens to the sats, computes all the necessary data, and broadcasts it over either NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000 for anyone who wants to listen. One of the devices listening is you chart plotter. The Garmin 4208 utilizes the Garmin GPS 19x for this purpose. For some plotters, there is a GPS receiver built into the chart plotter rather than being an external device. But even with an internal GPS, all such plotters can also accept data from an external GPS.

You say "You only get heading from a compass... nothing else. I'd bet that 99.9% of the GPS maps out there do NOT have heading input".
Yes, you only get heading (HDG) from a compass. That is correct. But I'll go out on a limb and say that 100% of the chart plotters DO accept a heading input. This comes in over the NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000 port, and is utilized by the chart plotter in a variety of ways. A heading sensor is not included when you buy a chart plotter, but all chart plotters accept it as a usable and useful input.

Your Garmin 4208 does support heading - you just need to feed it the data.

I think maybe you are using the term "input" differently from the rest of us?
 
Ditto on that great post twisted, thanks. I would slightly disagree, semantically, on your heading sensor comment to the extent that I feel 99% of us do need a compass of some sort to provide heading information, just not necessarily a networked "heading sensor" device.

Getting back to the OP, I forgot to chip in that I think the KVH Azimuth is a really fine piece of kit; a friend had one on his Hatteras 42LRC we cruised the Maritimes on 10 years ago. As long as I had some sort of hand held compass, be it in my binoculars (my favorite) or otherwise, I could see replacing one of the card compasses on board with one.

One instance where I found an old fashion compass handy was when we were at anchor. I had an antique box compass a freind gave me as a gift by my bedside. I had my position info on a Furuno repeater next to the bed, and sometimes a chart plotter on my laptop, but the compass was the quickest cheapest best way to understand the boat had clocked around, and which direction it was currently laying to. A dramatic example of how heading and COG can vary greatly...
 
So your actual heading in that case is coming from the magnetic field driven rate compass, NOT GPS!





Now you are talking about $atellite compa$$/heading $ensor$, not the GPS plotter virtually all cruising boats have. Important to make the distinction to newbies.


That's why I gave the description because so many have bantered about all the different types, and it seems to be confused about which is which and how they use the data.

To the newbie: To gain a clearer picture read your installation manual that came with the GPS and plotter you have. Read up on NEMA output sentences and see which ones you can use in other electronics. Understand the difference between HDG and COG. On some the COG is listed as COB. Heading, course over ground and course over bottom.
 
Ditto on that great post twisted, thanks. I would slightly disagree, semantically, on your heading sensor comment to the extent that I feel 99% of us do need a compass of some sort to provide heading information, just not necessarily a networked "heading sensor" device.

I didn't mean to make any judgement about what anyone should pick for their boat. We've seen that it ranges all over the place, and that's fine. My goal was just to clarify how the stuff actually works and what you get/don't get so people can be better informed when choosing.

Personally, I agree with you. I've got a sat compass, a rate compass as a back up, and a traditional magnetic compass, so you know where I land on the spectrum.
 
I just started a poll over here to see how our boats are equipped WRT compasses.

My guess is that 80% or more of our boats have some sort of magnetic compass.
 
Great writeup. Thanks.

- A rate compass and a flux gate compass are magnetic heading devices, though solid state. They report magnetic heading (HDG), and sometimes rate of turn (ROT). Some even report pitch and roll.

Silly question: What is a rate compass? Is that a fluxgate with some form of integrated AHRS?
 
Great writeup. Thanks.

Silly question: What is a rate compass? Is that a fluxgate with some form of integrated AHRS?

Not exactly. Here is an excerpt from the Simrad Autopilot Compass Manual.

"The Simrad Rate Compass is in principle a combination of a solid state rate sensor and a fluxgate sensor, where the rate sensor is slaved to the fluxgate sensor.

The rate sensor will momentarily pick up any angular changes in azimuth, but is almost unaffected by roll and pitch.

As the “rate heading” will drift, the fluxgate sensor is needed to maintain the (magnetic) heading. However, as the rate sensor is the primary “heading” source, the fluxgate signal can be more dampened and thus it will not contribute to the instability caused by heavy rolling and pitching.

The Rate Compass gives a more stable and precise autopilot steering on any type of boat. It also eliminates the effect of the distorted horizontal magnetic field at high latitudes and the well known s-ing phenomena when on autopilot steering.

It can also be used as “stand alone” compass to provide a stable heading input to a compass repeater, radar or other equipment."
 
Have two traditional compass units, autopilot with compass, and a chart plotter. Getting any electronics like a cell phone close by a compass causes an issue. Once accidentally left a magnetic screwdriver near the helm which caused a problem with a traditional compass. GPS is reliable and undeterred by magnetic interference - at least anything I can generate.
 
I just started a poll over here to see how our boats are equipped WRT compasses.

My guess is that 80% or more of our boats have some sort of magnetic compass.

Twisted,
Anxious to see your pole, but I'd bet the 100% have a magnetic compass.
 
This is a very confusing statement, and I think illustrates why we are talking across each other.

When you refer to a "GPS map", I think you mean a chart plotter. Your Garmin 4208 is such a chart plotter. It accepts a variety of sensor inputs, and uses them to display a chart and your position/progress across that chart.

One of the inputs to the chart plotter is indeed a GPS. This device listens to the sats, computes all the necessary data, and broadcasts it over either NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000 for anyone who wants to listen. One of the devices listening is you chart plotter. The Garmin 4208 utilizes the Garmin GPS 19x for this purpose. For some plotters, there is a GPS receiver built into the chart plotter rather than being an external device. But even with an internal GPS, all such plotters can also accept data from an external GPS.

You say "You only get heading from a compass... nothing else. I'd bet that 99.9% of the GPS maps out there do NOT have heading input".
Yes, you only get heading (HDG) from a compass. That is correct. But I'll go out on a limb and say that 100% of the chart plotters DO accept a heading input. This comes in over the NMEA 0183 or NMEA 2000 port, and is utilized by the chart plotter in a variety of ways. A heading sensor is not included when you buy a chart plotter, but all chart plotters accept it as a usable and useful input.

Your Garmin 4208 does support heading - you just need to feed it the data.

I think maybe you are using the term "input" differently from the rest of us?

Twistedtree,

Good point and I apologize for not being clearer. In the marine world I should be saying "chart plotter", which, when said, most folks believe it's a form of a gps mapping display for their boat, and most have options of additional inputs for more information. I'd bet the bulk of us use them for charting and depth.

I do have my 4208 connected to a NMEA backbone. Yes, mine will accept heading, but today I have no use for it. Perhaps if it makes sense for an additional piece of equipment, like MARPA on a radar, I'll get one.

And just for correction.... magnetic north is not the only place we can get heading from. The Satellite compass triangulated from 2 or more GPS receivers and compares the time delay to give us true heading input. That has it's advantages for operation at high latitudes or world travel, but most of us don't need or use true heading.

Now on a Trawler forum, I'll stand corrected as perhaps there's a lot more folks that have more sophisticated electronics than the average recreational boater, excepting the die hard fishermen.
 
So your actual heading in that case is coming from the magnetic field driven rate compass, NOT GPS!

Now you are talking about $atellite compa$$/heading $ensor$, not the GPS plotter virtually all cruising boats have. Important to make the distinction to newbies.

Absolutely right. In my case, the 'Heading' information is coming from the Rate Compass and the 'GPS Heading' is what is being calculated by the GPS.

If you will refer back to the picture in post #27, the 'GPS Heading' is 048M while the 'Heading' is 054M. This shot was taken during a right turn where the calculated 'GPS Heading' was lagging behind the actual 'Heading'.

Because the Rate Compass is energized whenever the autopilot is powered on, in standby, it serves as an excellent steering compass, even when the GPS is turned off. The autopilot displays this 'Heading' (and rudder) information on the screen in a very readable format.

Finally, as mentioned elsewhere, this information is also shared with, and can usually be displayed on any other devices connected to the network.

BTW, I do have a standard magnetic compass, but I find this easier to read, especially when it gets lumpy and things start bouncing around.:D

Simrad-RC36-Rate-Compass-for-AP25-AP26-AP27-_1.jpg
 
I don’t know guys, but I suppose the rest of you have much more reliable electronics than I have had, or perhaps just better luck with Mr Murphy:

• Seas were about 2 stories when the oil pressure gauge developed a small leak;
• Engine oil then traveling down the copper tubing and dripped directly onto the autopilot relay on my Wood Freeman, rendering it inoperable;
• Of course that didn’t matter because shortly thereafter the seas grew to 3 stories and there’s no way the AP could have steered in those;
• A year later the old flasher stopped working;
• 6 months later the speed log stopped working. Wasn’t algae or seaweed in the spinning turbine wheel. Never figured it out;
• Learned my lesson about using “old fashioned” technology, so on another boat I upgraded to the latest and greatest Lowrence electronics;
• My two year old sounder/plotter/GPS stopped communicating with external circuits. The DSC radio no longer received position input. Neither Lowrence nor Finland were able to fix. Warranty was expired therefore the solution = $$$;
• Learned my lesson about using integrated electronics!
• Learned my lesson about relying on electronics 100%. The whiskey compass will always be my primary, plus I find it hard to steer by digital numbers anyway.

So was it just my bad luck, or is it more likely that sh*t happens and usually in the worst sea conditions?????
 
Just for clarification....

Heading: (where we’re pointed)
This is where my nose points - and seeing as my nose is attached to my head, this is where my head (and thus my machine) is pointing relative to North. It is usually expressed as magnetic heading, but could be true heading. We get heading from a compass, not from GPS.
Course: (future)
This is my INTENDED path of travel that I have calculated taking into consideration winds, variation, current and such. We can obviously plot this on the chart plotter in advance to get us where we are going, avoiding obstacles and shallow water. This is the path we want to get to a destention.
Track: (history)
This is my ACTUAL path traveled over ground - just like a set of tracks I would leave behind in the snow or sand, relative to magnetic North. This is what the GPS on the chart plotter tells us we have done… it’s history. However, is nothing changed it will project the track ahead of us giving us the tract that will be made good. We get track from a GPS, not a compass or map.

Mag-Track.jpg
 
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My guess is that 80% or more of our boats have some sort of magnetic compass.
At present, mine is magnetic but I'm scrapping that for the KVH 1000. (as previously mentioned)
The Fluxgate is in the body of the compass. I can't begin to put in words just what a great product this is! It's been mentioned by several people that they never use their "whiskey compass" anymore. With the KVH, you'll be using it all the time....even with your chat plotter! :blush:


http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/pdfs/KVH_pdf_docs/Azimuth_1000_540042 F.pdf
 

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At present, mine is magnetic but I'm scrapping that for the KVH 1000. (as previously mentioned)
The Fluxgate is in the body of the compass. I can't begin to put in words just what a great product this is! It's been mentioned by several people that they never use their "whiskey compass" anymore. With the KVH, you'll be using it all the time....even with your chat plotter! :blush:


http://www.jamestowndistributors.com/userportal/pdfs/KVH_pdf_docs/Azimuth_1000_540042 F.pdf

Codger,

You keep making posts like this I'm liable to get one.....

I do worry sometimes when I get out of the bunk in the morning and find the sun has come up on the wrong side.... oh, the boat moved... that would solve that.
 
Twistedtree,

Good point and I apologize for not being clearer. In the marine world I should be saying "chart plotter", which, when said, most folks believe it's a form of a gps mapping display for their boat, and most have options of additional inputs for more information. I'd bet the bulk of us use them for charting and depth.

I do have my 4208 connected to a NMEA backbone. Yes, mine will accept heading, but today I have no use for it. Perhaps if it makes sense for an additional piece of equipment, like MARPA on a radar, I'll get one.

And just for correction.... magnetic north is not the only place we can get heading from. The Satellite compass triangulated from 2 or more GPS receivers and compares the time delay to give us true heading input. That has it's advantages for operation at high latitudes or world travel, but most of us don't need or use true heading.

Now on a Trawler forum, I'll stand corrected as perhaps there's a lot more folks that have more sophisticated electronics than the average recreational boater, excepting the die hard fishermen.

Any decent navigator, human or electronic can quickly change true to magnetic and visa versa....

No big deal....TVMDC
 
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That is rich, coming from someone who thinks most people have no clue. When you are in a hole, stop digging. Satellite compasses do, in fact, provide heading information (very accurately), even when stationary. And all the major chart plotter brands accept heading information -- it comes in as NMEA data.

-- Not to be confrontational :)

Most people don't, just read the posts....
 
So far..just parrying jabs....no blows landed....
 
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