A scary night on the water last night...

150+ posts, an interesting topic. So far no one has mentioned the size of the boat which crossed in front of the OP. Every time I see a small boat at close quarters I am cautious as I find inn these small boats a greater lack of understanding of both the right of way concepts and the lack of maneuverabilty that larger boats have when compared to the under 25 footers. Obviously not true of all small boat operators but frequent enough that I have a concern and act defensively.

Bay Pelican said:

150+ posts, an interesting topic. So far no one has mentioned the size of the boat which crossed in front of the OP. Every time I see a small boat at close quarters I am cautious as I find inn these small boats a greater lack of understanding of both the right of way concepts and the lack of maneuverabilty that larger boats have when compared to the under 25 footers. Obviously not true of all small boat operators but frequent enough that I have a concern and act defensively.

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X2
We have a public boat launch on the channel from our marina to the lake and inevitably someone launches a 14+ ft boat right in front of us and backs right into the centre of channel while they "attempt" to start their engine. Very frustrating.

I skipped to the end of these posts after reading three pages of them. There is one thing I hadn't seen mentioned. What if the sailboat skipper was a jerk? I read an article a year or so ago by a female sail boater who mentioned an early sailing experience. Her then-boyfriend took her sailing and when he saw a nearby powerboat he intentionally changed course in order to cut in front of the power boater. When the other boat changed direction, he then turned his sailboat in front of the new course to make the power boater change course again. He laughed and did it one more time and told her he enjoyed messing with power boaters. Some sail boaters can be jerks...

On the other hand, some power boaters can be jerks. On multiple occasions I have had to hail another boat on radio and/or change course when the other boat is on autopilot on a collision course with me and no one is at the helm keeping a lookout. That ain't good either.

When "right of way" does not even come into the picture. But, survival does! LOL


October 2008, during a blustery day, the now deceased billionaire Tom Perkins was bringing his 289' super sail/motor boat/yacht The Maltese Falcon into SF Bay and under the GG Bridge.
There were over a hundred boats playing "pilot fish" during entry. I'd met Tom a couple years prior. Well before reaching Golden Gate Bridge we were traveling parallel and fairly close (50 to 75 yards) away from the Falcon's forward starboard quarter. Along with several other motor boats we were each keeping close proximities and well respecting each other's areas. SUDDENLY... Seemingly Out of Nowhere... a freaking sail boat (a 35'er??) under full sail, but not with full wind capture, and obvious also under power came bolting across from Falcon's port side at 45 degree angle to The Falcon's bow (very close to it) and heading directly into my and the other close proximity power boaters way of travel. All hell broke loose as we all maneuvered to miss collision with the sail boat. Needless to say... all we captains on the power boats did what we had to do and no collision occurred. However, it was a close call on many accounts during that very up-tight group of seconds.

Soon as possiable after the group of 30' to 45' power boats I was in formation with reformed good seas stances I took my opportunity to exit that area completely. Once free of constraints due to other boats I (for one of the very seldom times utilized) pushed our Tolly to WOT and headed at 90 degree angle to the formations in order to get completely out of the fray. Sure was/is nice to feel/see our Tolly step un n' go at some 22/23 knots. I only left her at that speed for matter of a minute or three.

Can say - I do not plan to ever again put myself, boat and crew in position such as that again by playing "pilot fish" to any other big boat coming to port.

Live and learn!

Robster_in_edmonds said:

What if the sailboat skipper was a jerk?

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Another reason I avoid an accident but don't get into a confrontation. What if he's a drunk jerk with a loaded gun? Water rage. Not as common, fortunately, as road rage.

hmason said:

For a sailboat to be considered under power, the motor must be in gear. If he's sailing he might be running the motor to charge batteries. It can be hard to discern by looking at the boat. Another reason to pay attention and avoid a mishap based on misinformation or assumption.

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That might be open to legal interpretation.

"Remember that a sailboat running an engine, even if sails are up, is legally categorized as a powerboat. In a congested area it is best not to run the engine with sails still up, because captains of other boats may not be aware of your engine running and may assume you are operating under sailing rules."

This is from the USCGAUX. Doesn't say "engine running and in gear".

And this comes from Boat US:

"Sailing Vessel - Any vessel under sail alone. Remember, the engine only has to be on for a sailboat to be considered a powerboat."

I was always told if the engine is on/running in or out of gear, the sailboat becomes a power boat.

If you think about it, it makes sense.

Otherwise all a sailboat has to do is shift in and out of gear to go back and forth with its sails up from being a sail boat to a power boat.

Add in the "underway, making way" and "underway, not making way" concept and a running engine gives the sailing vessel ability to alter course (somewhat) at a moments notice.

I would agree that it is a power vessel, despite sails up if the engine is running. That is why the steaming cone is important, it leave little doubt.

Just in case the sailing vessel is running to charge batteries but incapable of going into gear.

This thread reminds me of an incident (not quite an accident!!) we had in the Chesapeake a few years back. Proceeding North at about 7kt we encountered a boat of similar 50ft size. Despite us clearly being the stand on vessel, the other boat continued to cross directly across our bow at close quarters. We were forced to "slam on the brakes" to avoid collision.
The other boat justified his action by saying he was a fishing boat. After he passed we did notice 2 old guys in the stern with rods. So, the question is, is a boat fishing the same as a fishing boat under USCG rule??
As for sailboats I always give them a wide berth,because you just never know what they are about to do!! I also always do the same for commercial fishing boats, because it is hard to tell exactly where their nets or lines are. Both are especially true at night!!
As for this thread, I actually find the very fact that there is so much discussion about the reported event quite concerning. The OP was obviously in the wrong and should have been paying more attention.

No, trolling, even with a commercial fishing vessel carries no special privilege...it is just another power vessel.

Most people are suprised a vessel towing is just another power vessel unless she declares restricted in the ability to maneuver.

Read the OP, the "sailboat" was showing the lights for a sailboat up to 23' oal
(approx. 24') running with engine on. It was showing green side light, it was not the
stand-on vessel. He avoided a collision, the "sailboat" should have never put him in
that position.

Ted

Do you really think that the typical sailboat owner knows or cares to change lighting depending whether the boat is under sail or power? If it has sails up, give it the benefit of the doubt. Unless it is the blackest night on earth you can usually see the sails no matter what lights are showing.

We sure make a lot of broad generalities about other boaters here, don't we? Actually, most of the people I sail with understand the difference between a steaming light and an anchor light and would never push rules of the road to the point that the boat in the OP's account did. There are idiots in every form of boating . . . whether they have masts or not. Now PWC jockeys are another matter . . . .

I agree that most boaters of either persuasion probably know the difference between steaming lights and anchor lights. But, I thought this thread was about the difference between lights shown by a sailboat sailing vs a sailboat under power.

angus99 said:

We sure make a lot of broad generalities about other boaters here, don't we? Actually, most of the people I sail with understand the difference between a steaming light and an anchor light and would never push rules of the road to the point that the boat in the OP's account did. There are idiots in every form of boating . . . whether they have masts or not. Now PWC jockeys are another matter . . . .

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....even my 1977 Cape Dory had "steaming light" on the electric panel. Maybe they should go back to that term.

But on many forums predominate by sailors...most laugh at steaming cones and swear they have never seen one.

Have to agree there...pretty rare.

So my cut is that most boaters pick and choose what rules they see as important in the real world.

As someone pointed out, is it really a big deal if you are a sailboat with its motor running/pushing and everyone treats you like a sailing vessel? Especially because no one expects anyone else on the water to know or understand the rules?

Heck I don't know....but I do know that I follow the rules till I clearly suspect the other guy isn't going to follow them.

Because as I posted before, avoiding a collision in our smallish boats is usually pretty easy so I can wait until the last moment usually.

When towing and I am restricted in the ability to manuever, I do lay on the continuous blasts of the horn....it is the only thing that seems to work....and even then not all the time.

Chrisjs said:

I agree that most boaters of either persuasion probably know the difference between steaming lights and anchor lights. But, I thought this thread was about the difference between lights shown by a sailboat sailing vs a sailboat under power.

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It should have been. But as seen the thread never brought that up until much later. But this thread is an excellent example of how 'stories' grow and gain traction as 'the truth' when after all the details are out the 'perceived incident' isn't exactly like it was originally portrayed.


To recap: A vessel (A) was underway at night. Another vessel (S) was seen ahead. The vessel (S) was described as a sailing vessel which vessel A perceived to be 'stand on' because they were a SV.

Later vessel A had to take evasive action in extremis to avoid collision with vessel s. So who was not paying attention?

The 'incorrect lights' by vessel S didn't seem to be a concern to Vessel A. That is a huge alarm bell for me. It shows someone's clueless.

Chrisjs said:

I agree that most boaters of either persuasion probably know the difference between steaming lights and anchor lights.

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Think so? Go look at a thread named "Anchor Light Regulations" on the sister site (I don't know how to link it).

Common guys and gals - We're not talking about 1000 ++ ton ocean liners here with considerably restricted "quick maneuvering" capabilities.


We're mainly [in this forum anyway] mulling over the capability of our little [25' to 60'] quick turn/stop/accelerate pleasure cruiser motor boats capability to avoid disastrous collisions with any other type boat [sail or pwr]. And, shoals, floating debris, docks too for that matter.


Of course sail boaters can be a big pia. But so can pwr boaters who get all anal retentive about the whole "right-of-way" thang!

So I leave it at this statement. IMO: All pleasure boat captains of any type boat should leave their right-of-way egos at the dock. Sure there will be times when another boater may act as a puffed up a-hole regarding the ways of boating and sure there are plenty of pleasure boaters that have not a clue regarding what is/are correct actions to take on the water - BUT - So What?? Simply keep your eyes open and avoid all chances of collision at nearly any cost (especially the cost of temporally deflated ego) is the way to correctly play the pleasure boating game.

So, I repeat. "Here lies the body of one Michael O'Day. He died defending his right-of-way. He was right, dead right, as he sailed along... but he's just as dead as if he were wrong!"

Lighten up, loosen up, enjoy pleasure boating and most importantly stay alive!!

Happy Boat-Path Daze! - Art

Art said:

Common guys and gals - We're not talking about 1000 ++ ton ocean liners here with considerably restricted "quick maneuvering" capabilities.


We're mainly [in this forum anyway] mulling over the capability of our little [25' to 60'] quick turn/stop/accelerate pleasure cruiser motor boats capability to avoid disastrous collisions with any other type boat [sail or pwr]. And, shoals, floating debris, docks too for that matter.


Of course sail boaters can be a big pia. But so can pwr boaters who get all anal retentive about the whole "right-of-way" thang!

So I leave it at this statement. IMO: All pleasure boat captains of any type boat should leave their right-of-way egos at the dock. Sure there will be times when another boater may act as a puffed up a-hole regarding the ways of boating and sure there are plenty of pleasure boaters that have not a clue regarding what is/are correct actions to take on the water - BUT - So What?? Simply keep your eyes open and avoid all chances of collision at nearly any cost (especially the cost of temporally deflated ego) is the way to correctly play the pleasure boating game.

So, I repeat. "Here lies the body of one Michael O'Day. He died defending his right-of-way. He was right, dead right, as he sailed along... but he's just as dead as if he were wrong!"

Lighten up, loosen up, enjoy pleasure boating and most importantly stay alive!!

Happy Boat-Path Daze! - Art

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Well said, Art..... how true.

Up until the maritime hearing.....

Art:
It pays to observe the same "rules of the road" on the road as well!! Could not agree with you more, especially in these days of texting instead of looking where driving (car or boat). I try to keep out of the way of other drivers regardless!!

psneeld said:

Up until the maritime hearing.....

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Maritime hearing or not, and outcome of such a hearing... Michael O'Day is still dead due to his refusal to let go of his own presumed (and very possibly correct) "right-of-way" rights! Unfortunately... maybe others are harmed or dead too.

Where as, good ol' Michael O'Day could have simply bit the bullet that time of dangerous boat position confluence and conceded passage to the other (very possibly incorrect) right-of-way usage Captain.

It's pretty easy to drive to stay alive. A lot easier than what happened to Michael O'Day during that time of his puffed-up ego; i.e., attempting to prove beyond a doubt that he had THE Right-Of-Way... which he probably did! But, so what??!!

Happy Boat-Handling Daze! - Art

Art said:

Of course sail boaters can be a big pia. But so can pwr boaters who get all anal retentive about the whole "right-of-way" thang!
:

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There are places I AVOID if at all possible and that is getting in the way of sailboat races. They become arrogant SOBs if you even hint of challenging them. And I found this true many times in my SAILBOAT!

foggysail said:

There are places I AVOID if at all possible and that is getting in the way of sailboat races. They become arrogant SOBs if you even hint of challenging them. And I found this true many times in my SAILBOAT!

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So do bicyclists, especially those in events. I'm fine when they take one lane especially when it's marked as a biking lane, but when there are two lanes in the direction and they decide to take both, and a line of traffic piles up for miles. Worst is two cyclists who decide they must ride side by side but not too close, so take both lanes. I'm happy to give the right of way but not to surrender the entire road.

Yeah, and in Massachusetts it is now legal for bikes to ride two by two

foggysail said:

Yeah, and in Massachusetts it is now legal for bikes to ride two by two

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Two by two in one lane I can live with, but it's when bicycles block the entire road, I have a problem.

Is this part of the the rationale for having Rules? If all boats apply the Rules, all boats have a reasonable expectation how other boats will behave in a given situation.
The overriding obligation to avoid collision remains paramount. But even then, if one boat turns away in accordance with the Rules, and the other turns away contrary to the Rules,they may still collide, eg in a meeting head on situation. The Rules do matter.

BruceK said:

Is this part of the the rationale for having Rules? If all boats apply the Rules, all boats have a reasonable expectation how other boats will behave in a given situation.
The overriding obligation to avoid collision remains paramount. But even then, if one boat turns away in accordance with the Rules, and the other turns away contrary to the Rules,they may still collide, eg in a meeting head on situation. The Rules do matter.

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Of course the rules matter....

But much like 4 cars coming to a 4 way stop, and no one quite sure who should go first....if there is a collision with any of the 4 stopped cars....2 people are complete idiots and terrible drivers.

Follow the rules, but if you can't manuever most 65 and under boats pretty handily, meaning avoiding a collusion from an extremis situation easily, maybe you better turn it over to a Capt that can?

psneeld said:

Of course the rules matter....

But much like 4 cars coming to a 4 way stop, and no one quite sure who should go first....if there is a collision with any of the 4 stopped cars....2 people are complete idiots and terrible drivers.

Follow the rules, but if you can't manuever most 65 and under boats pretty handily, meaning avoiding a collusion from an extremis situation easily, maybe you better turn it over to a Capt that can?

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If everyone followed the rules on the road, there would never be any wrecks. However, there are a lot. Many are avoided however by defensive driving and anticipating other cars won't follow the rules. Boating is no different.

psneeld said:

Of course the rules matter....

But much like 4 cars coming to a 4 way stop, and no one quite sure who should go first....if there is a collision with any of the 4 stopped cars....2 people are complete idiots and terrible drivers.

Follow the rules, but if you can't manuever most 65 and under boats pretty handily, meaning avoiding a collusion from an extremis situation easily, maybe you better turn it over to a Capt that can?

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BandB said:

If everyone followed the rules on the road, there would never be any wrecks. However, there are a lot. Many are avoided however by defensive driving and anticipating other cars won't follow the rules. Boating is no different.

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