Ships station license and operator permit

I've boating in BC waters for just about 40 years. I've been boarded and inspected several times and have never been asked to provide a ships station license or an radio operator permit for the ships VHF. Returning to the US, customs or USCG have never asked if the is a ships station license or a permitted operator on board...I been asked to see my discharge plaque, my customs sticker, boat registration, fishing license, even had my freezer inspected and several other items but never anything about the VHF radio. Is this just another antiquated law. Be honest now how many people have ships station license and are a permitted operator?

If you don't have an SSB and are not running commercially, I don't believe you're required to have one for VHF as your boat isn't required to have a VHF radio.

Ted

O C Diver said:

If you don't have an SSB and are not running commercially, I don't believe you're required to have one for VHF as your boat isn't required to have a VHF radio.

Ted

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That's not the way I read the FCC regs. I was going to apply for an MMSI number and because I take the boat into BC the FCC has to issue the MMSI number I hope I misread or misinterpreted the FCC's requirement.

O C Diver said:

If you don't have an SSB and are not running commercially, I don't believe you're required to have one for VHF as your boat isn't required to have a VHF radio.

Ted

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I just went through this in preparation for my trip to BC this summer. from the FCC website. See the last bit. BTW, I think that it is doubtful that someone would ask to see it, but why take the chance?

Who Needs a Ship Station License


You do not need a license to operate a marine VHF radio, radar, or EPIRBs aboard voluntary ships operating domestically. The term "voluntary ships" refers to ships that are not required by law to carry a radio. Generally, this term applies to recreation or pleasure craft. The term "voluntary ships" does not apply to the following:

1. Cargo ships over 300 gross tons navigating in the open sea;
2. Ships certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to carry more than 6 passengers for hire in the open sea or tidewaters of the U.S.;
3. Power driven ships over 20 meters in length on navigable waterways;
4. Ships of more than 100 gross tons certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to carry at least one passenger on navigable waterways;
5. Tow boats of more than 7.8 meters in length on navigable waterways; and,
6. Uninspected commercial fishing industry vessels required to carry a VHF radio.
7. Ships required to carry an Automatic Identification System (AIS) transceiver by the U.S. Coast Guard regulations enacted pursuant to the Maritime Transportation Security Act of 2000.

Ships are considered as operating domestically when they do not travel to foreign ports or do not transmit radio communications to foreign stations. Sailing in international waters is permitted, so long as the previous conditions are met. If you travel to a foreign port (e.g., Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, British Virgin Islands), a license is required. Additionally, if you travel to a foreign port, you are required to have an operator permit.

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Got that license and permit for a planned incursion into Canada this year. Had the same questions, but I got them just the same on the better safe than sorry principle after reading the regs. Didn't make a large dent in the boat wallet relative to other expenses. From what I could gather, from a practical standpoint for a small pleasure boat, the Canadians don't seem to care that much while the US technically might, but probably wouldn't. International treaty thing?

So is this just another way for the government agency to collect revenue? Who enforces this? The Canadians don't to my knowledge, It seems that having a VHF is a safety issue so why try to impose a tax on safety?

If you travel outside of US waters one needs both a ships license and an operators license.

Ka_sea_ta said:

That's not the way I read the FCC regs. I was going to apply for an MMSI number and because I take the boat into BC the FCC has to issue the MMSI number I hope I misread or misinterpreted the FCC's requirement.

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That is how I came across the rules as well, I was getting an MMSI and since I would be traveling into BC, I needed the FCC to issue it.

It was a very simple and relatively inexpensive thing to acquire.

Needed it to get MMSI

I think that the fees are 215 for the ships license and 60 for the operators permit.... And like I asked before who enforces a US reg in Canada?

The rules for Canadians is similar. We do not need station licenses or operator licenses if our vessel is operated only in Canada. However when travelling to the US we can be asked to produce the licenses.
That was the reason I purchased both. Not a big outlay, the operator license requires passing an exam and then is good for life. A Canadian station license is approximately $40.

Maybe someone from Canada can help us here, but my understanding is that licensing is required in Canada. Can anyone confirm? I know an FCC license is accepted by other countries to meet their requirements. There might also be treaties about licensing for international voyages.

I think customs and the CG don't ask because they don't care. It's an FCC thing, not theirs.

Also, there are at least three different issues at play here:

1) MMSI with info in the international database. To get your info in this database, you need to get your MMSI through the FCC. Search and rescue might be aided if locals can quickly get your boat info, contact info, EPIRB number, emergency contacts, etc.

2) Ships station license. I'm sure this varies from country to country, but many require that the ships radio station be licensed. An FCC license fulfills the requirement.

3) Radio Operators license. Ditto #2, but this licenses the operator.

Recreational boaters in the US are exempt from #2 and #3, and they can get a free MMSI with data that goes in a US-local database. So all this is no cost for 99% of US boaters.

Doug said:

The rules for Canadians is similar. We do not need station licenses or operator licenses if our vessel is operated only in Canada. However when travelling to the US we can be asked to produce the licenses.
That was the reason I purchased both. Not a big outlay, the operator license requires passing an exam and then is good for life. A Canadian station license is approximately $40.

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Thanks. You answered while I was still formulating the question....

So maybe it's an IMO thing for boats traveling internationally?

Ka_sea_ta said:

That's not the way I read the FCC regs. I was going to apply for an MMSI number and because I take the boat into BC the FCC has to issue the MMSI number I hope I misread or misinterpreted the FCC's requirement.

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Sorry, missed the part about traveling abroad. Not required for you in the USA.

Poach said:

Needed it to get MMSI

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A MMSI number for recreational boats doesn't require either licence if the boat isn't required to have the license.

Information is located at BoatUS MMSI

Ted

I considered getting the Ship / Oper license as we do cruise to Canada fairly often.
I never put it high on the to do list as I've never been asked for it in 25+ yrs and have never heard of anyone ever being asked.
My plan - claim ignorance and beg forgiveness

We did have a station license when they were req'd here in the US but don't believe that satisfied international reqmts.

Has anyone here on TF EVER been asked or had to show a license when crossing US / Canadian borders?

Canadian
Used to have a ships license, renewed annually. Roughly 10 yrs ago the annual renewal was discontinued by Transport Canada. It has never again been required, so my ship station is now an unlicensed station. I used to have a "call sign" a short collection of letters and numbers that was impossible to remember. Now my call sign is simply my boat name.
I also have a personal license "ROC-M". This was obtained 25 yrs ago, and the slip of paper it is recorded on has faded and torn and won't likely survive another year, let alone for the life of the license (= my lifetime). This is still technically required, though I have never heard of anyone penalized for its lack.
Nice to know, that in order to volunteer as RCMSAR, the little Fast Rescue Craft boys and girls, ROC-M and PCOC are both mandatory.

You can obtain an MMSI number at no cost thru BoatUS. Purportedly the BoatUS MMSI data base is not shared with the Canadian CG. However, it is my understanding that the BoatUS database IS available to the Canadian CG and should they recieve a distress call with a BoatUS MMSI number that they immediately refer to the BoatUS database to obtain pertinant info. At least that is what I have been led to believe.
-David

Have never been asked about them in the US or Canada, but was in Panama.

Ka_sea_ta said:

Be honest now how many people have ships station license and are a permitted operator?

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I do and I am.

-Chris

I have the licenses as well, and got them because of international travel. At the time my understanding of the requirement was to satisfy other countries that required licenses, and an FCC license satisfies that requirement. When I first did it I was heading to the Bahamas and thought/think they require a license, but I never verified that, and was certainly never asked for one when there.

I think a lot of this comes down to what's technically required vs what you can dependably get away with. It tend to lean towards what's technically required, but that's just me.

Another related question for our Canadian participants.... Do you know if foreign boats are required to have a license vs domestic boats?

From the FCC web site.

http://wireless.fcc.gov/services/index.htm?job=licensing&id=ship_stations#Who

Who Needs a Ship Station License


You do not need a license to operate a marine VHF radio, radar, or EPIRBs aboard voluntary ships operating domestically. The term "voluntary ships" refers to ships that are not required by law to carry a radio. Generally, this term applies to recreation or pleasure craft. The term "voluntary ships" does not apply to the following:

1. Cargo ships over 300 gross tons navigating in the open sea;
2. Ships certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to carry more than 6 passengers for hire in the open sea or tidewaters of the U.S.;
3. Power driven ships over 20 meters in length on navigable waterways;
4. Ships of more than 100 gross tons certified by the U.S. Coast Guard to carry at least one passenger on navigable waterways;
5. Tow boats of more than 7.8 meters in length on navigable waterways; and,
6. Uninspected commercial fishing industry vessels required to carry a VHF radio.
7. Ships required to carry an Automatic Identification System (AIS) transceiver by the U.S. Coast Guard regulations enacted pursuant to the Maritime Transportation Security Act of 2000.

Ships are considered as operating domestically when they do not travel to foreign ports or do not transmit radio communications to foreign stations. Sailing in international waters is permitted, so long as the previous conditions are met. If you travel to a foreign port (e.g., Canada, Mexico, Bahamas, British Virgin Islands), a license is required. Additionally, if you travel to a foreign port, you are required to have an operator permit.

This was about taking a boat into Canada. The last Paragraph is what I questioned. In almost 40 years of going into Canadian waters I have never been asked to see a ships station license... So here are the main questions... Who enforces the FCC requirement in Canada? and has anyone actually been asked for the SSL when in Canada.

The current cost for US boaters is 215 for the SSL and 60 for the operators permit... so it is almost a 300 dollar fee for something that in my mind hasn't ever been enforced and may be impossible to enforce.

Seems to me the FCC is a US government thing proposing what you shoulg have outside of US waters, strange right? Of all the countries we've been to so far, not one of them care what the US thinks as far as safety, polution, or anything else. I have not been stopped by USCG abroad, but would be curious as to how much they could really do if I'm not in US waters. No one has life jackets or lights on there dingies since we left the US, eveyone pumps sewage overboard, on and on.

BTW, I do have both licenses, but I'm a sucker for following rules

Ka_sea_ta said:

Who enforces the FCC requirement in Canada? and has anyone actually been asked for the SSL when in Canada.

The current cost for US boaters is 215 for the SSL and 60 for the operators permit... so it is almost a 300 dollar fee for something that in my mind hasn't ever been enforced and may be impossible to enforce.

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What the Canadians enforce, what you personally decide to do, and what the US agreed to by Treaty (presumably SOLAS, but possibly others), are all different things.

Given that the US has agreed to licensing requirement by Treaty, FCC can't hardly publicly excuse US citizens or other boat operators in US waters from the requirement.

-Chris

ranger42c said:

Given that the US has agreed to licensing requirement by Treaty, FCC can't hardly publicly excuse US citizens or other boat operators in US waters from the requirement.

-Chris

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I agree totally except there is no requirement for US boaters in US waters to have an SSL.
My reading of the regs that state "you can not contact foreign stations without having an SSL" or something to the effect. Which I interpret that you can contact other US boaters in non domestic waters without the SSL... So the way I understand this whole thing is the US effectively has rules that only apply to US boaters in foreign waters where they (FCC) has no authority to enforce.

The only reason I brought this whole thing up, is my libertarian bent in which the government wants to tax you for what is effectively safety equipment... I don't believe there was a fee when I registered the EPIRB.

Sealife said:

BTW, I do have both licenses, but I'm a sucker for following rules

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Wifey B: And if I'm going to protest a rule, I'm going to pick one a lot worse than this one. I normally follow government rules. Society's rules, not so much.

Ka_sea_ta said:

I agree totally except there is no requirement for US boaters in US waters to have an SSL.
My reading of the regs that state "you can not contact foreign stations without having an SSL" or something to the effect. Which I interpret that you can contact other US boaters in non domestic waters without the SSL... So the way I understand this whole thing is the US effectively has rules that only apply to US boaters in foreign waters where they (FCC) has no authority to enforce.

The only reason I brought this whole thing up, is my libertarian bent in which the government wants to tax you for what is effectively safety equipment... I don't believe there was a fee when I registered the EPIRB.

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Yeah, I didn't say that clearly. I meant the part about treaty agreements for US boaters in foreign waters... and presumably foreign boaters in US waters, although I've not ever seen an FCC boat out there attempting enforcement, and haven't ever heard USCG attempting to enforce.

I'd suspect it might only come up in case of some kind of event, where a (legally operated) radio might have been deemed to be useful.

What you see as a "tax" (and it might be a use tax, essentially) could also be considered part of the cost of FCC administration of a Treaty obligation, funded in this case by the specific user who caused the gummint to incur a portion of those costs. (I have no personal insight into the cost of those particular databases; software development, testing and maintenance; associated personnel costs... I just know from our own software development projects that it's not inexpensive, likely never completely paid for by the relatively measly number of marine VHF radio operators.)

I think mostly what I'm saying is that its maybe (likely) the Treaty that causes stuff like this, not FCC as the prime mover. They're probably further down the food chain...

-Chris

Ka_sea_ta said:

The only reason I brought this whole thing up, is my libertarian bent in which the government wants to tax you for what is effectively safety equipment... I don't believe there was a fee when I registered the EPIRB.

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Another example of a situation where we each need to make our own choices. I certainly understand questioning this requirement. I think it has more to do with complying with laws based around international agreements as was mentioned.

I tend to follow rules out of habit, so I don't mind doing it.

I think the best way to question and see about changing a rule that we don't like is to approach those that actually make the rules. In this case, your US House Rep would be the first place to start.

I think that refusing to follow a rule out of principle is perfectly fine, as long as the person is prepared to face whatever consequences there might be.

Finally, I think that refusing to follow a rule solely to save a few bucks and they don't think they will be caught is not a good plan.

I believe the saying is: If you can handle the consequences, go for it!

dhays said:

I think that refusing to follow a rule out of principle is perfectly fine, as long as the person is prepared to face whatever consequences there might be.

Finally, I think that refusing to follow a rule solely to save a few bucks and they don't think they will be caught is not a good plan.

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I own a boat so saving a few bucks is a oxymoron.

I would suspect that most of the recreational boaters going into Canada don't know about the requirement for an SSL. I wouldn't have until I changed out a VHF and thought briefly about installing an AIS transmitter as a safety precaution, which needed an MMSI number. Which is where I discovered the SSL requirement. Which is where I assume most people become aware of this requirement...