Show Us Your Fuel Valves

menzies · Sep 11, 2016

When I first took a look at this set up I thought "Holy Moly, how am I going to work all of this out," this is extremely complex.

But when I sat back and read the labeling (which is well done), it is all very clear and well laid out.

Anyone else with a "seemingly" complicated set up?

Larry M · Sep 11, 2016

Wow! That's my fists reaction.

Question though. How many tanks are in the system? Two engines plus a generator? We're getting ready to redo ours so this is a timely thread.

Bay Pelican · Sep 11, 2016

How are the labels attached?

smitty477 · Sep 11, 2016

menzies · Sep 11, 2016

Smitty, that's nice and simple. You can see you have the starboard engine and gen running from and back to the starboard tank and the port to and from the port tank.

Do you have any way of balancing the tanks, or do you just put more fuel into the starboard tank?

menzies · Sep 11, 2016

Bay Pelican said:
How are the labels attached?

I will take some closer photos later and explain the set up - it really is much simpler than it looks.

smitty477 · Sep 11, 2016

"Do you have any way of balancing the tanks, or do you just put more fuel into the starboard tank?"

These manifolds were the same on my last 3 boats so we got pretty used to them.
Often balanced by just putting a bit more fuel in the tank used by the genset.
Or we just rotated the selection of the genset tank as the valves were very handy to access - 20 hours or so port then 20 hours or so stb.
Or if we had a tank imbalance just temporarily set both engines to return fuel to the lower tank until even then set them back to individual tank returns.
Notably - the mains burned very near equal amounts over 10+ seasons as we used boost gages to syn engines at anything over hull speed.

ksanders · Sep 11, 2016

my system is so simple it does not require any valves except for a shut off for each engine/generator.

Two engine, two tanks.

One fuel pump to move fuel in either direction if need be (which is almost never).

No single point of failure.

Simple, and extremely reliable.

I've had boats with forward and reverse valves, and this one took me by suprise until I examined it closely. It is a marvel of simplicity, yet still providing the ability to balance fuel load.

menzies · Sep 11, 2016

ksanders said:
my system is so simple it does not require any valves except for a shut off for each engine/generator.

Two engine, two tanks.

One fuel pump to move fuel in either direction if need be (which is never).

No single point of failure.

Simple, and extremely reliable.

Diesels or gas?

menzies · Sep 11, 2016

Here are a couple of photos. The first one with red lines in the flow coming from the tanks and going to the engines. With a transfer line. The second one with yellow lines are the return flows coming back from the engines to the tanks, with a transfer line.

Three tanks, Starboard, Port and Forward.

Tags are on there with cable ties.

ksanders · Sep 11, 2016

menzies said:
Diesels or gas?

Diesel engines (of course)

I have 600+ of safe range at hull speed.

What makes this system possible is my two engine, two tank setup.

Each tank is 220 gallons, so 440 gallons total.

If I had a single screw boast, or more than two tanks valving would of course be required.

For a boat with two tanks, and twin engines I see no logical reason to make things more complex than necessary for reliable operation.

As a interesting note the photos that Ron (smitty) posted are of the way the valves were arranged on this same model boat of previous model years. At some point the Bayliner engineering team figured out that it was unnecessary and went with a simpler system.

menzies · Sep 11, 2016

ksanders said:
Diesel engines (of course)

I have 600+ of safe range at hull speed.

So don't you have valves controlling where you want your fuel to be taken from and returned to? Or is it fixed that it feeds and returns to that same tank for each engine?

ksanders · Sep 11, 2016

menzies said:
So don't you have valves controlling where you want your fuel to be taken from and returned to? Or is it fixed that it feeds and returns to that same tank for each engine?

Port engine feeds from and returns to port tank
Starboard engine feeds from and returns to starboard tank
Generator feeds from and returns to Starboard tank

There is a reversing fuel pump between the two tanks that can transfer fuel in either direction.

RT Firefly · Sep 11, 2016

Greetings,
Similar to Mr. ks. 3 tanks, 3 valves (each engine+genny). All tanks are amidships in the keel connected by 2 valves. No transfer pump(s). Simple, easy-peasy.

Ka_sea_ta · Sep 11, 2016

This is the new system installed with the engine and gen set upgrade The oil exchange system is up top there are feeds for the furnace, gen set and engines as well as the returns. THe photo doesn't show it well but everything is clearly labeled

hmason · Sep 11, 2016

Easy and elegant. Just lie on your side and it gets even easier.

menzies · Sep 11, 2016

hmason said:
Easy and elegant. Just lie on your side and it gets even easier.

So you have to draw from both tanks at all times?

What is the valve bottom left for?

hmason · Sep 11, 2016

menzies said:
So you have to draw from both tanks at all times?

What is the valve bottom left for?

No, I can draw from either tank or both. If you look carefully at the diagram, you'll see that eack tank has a shut off at the tank itself. Both tanks feed the supply manifold. If you close the valve at the tank, only the other tank feeds the supply manifold.

The valve at the bottom left is the starboard engine supply.

hmason · Sep 11, 2016

Menzies, the photo is sideways and needs to be rotated clockwise. I think the valve you are referring to is the one in the shadows. That valve, if the picture was rotated would be on the upper left. It is the return line to the starboard tank.

O C Diver · Sep 11, 2016

Replumbed my system during the refit. It's very simple. Engine and generator both draw off the starboard tank and each has their own shutoff valve and Racor separator. By practice, all fuel is pumped into the port tank. You could fill the starboard tank in an emergency. Fuel is transferred to the starboard tank through the fuel polisher. Plumbing is such that fuel can be transferred to either tank. Either tank can be polished. If the transfer pump fails, both suction valves can be opened to equalize the tanks by gravity.

Each tank hold over 300 gallons for a total range of over 2,000 miles.

What it looked like before I started:

My transfer / polishing system:

Ted

menzies · Sep 11, 2016

Interesting. Also neat how one is labeled "Sunction," I have not seen that before.

That picture of your Racor filter and filter valve does raise another question for me though.

When I got the boat the valve for the duty and standby was set to both. For now I have left it that way.

Last weekend on a trip with other boaters I raised the question. My thought being you should really run through the duty and if you have an issue there switch to the standby while your replace the duty. That way bad fuel will not take the engine down. He told me that his filters are also set to both at the advice of his mechanic.

I don't get it. I am having the Lugger guy come before the end of the year to do the annual and this is YET another question I have!

It could be that while in US waters, where fuel is more reliable, you get longer between filter changes, watch your filter pressure gauge, and then change both at the same time.

But not sure that is the best way all the same.

hmason · Sep 11, 2016

I always run on one filter keeping the other as standby. I think running on both defeats the redundancy of the system.

O C Diver · Sep 11, 2016

menzies said:
Interesting. Also neat how one is labeled "Sunction," I have not seen that before.

That picture of your Racor filter and filter valve does raise another question for me though.

When I got the boat the valve for the duty and standby was set to both. For now I have left it that way.

Last weekend on a trip with other boaters I raised the question. My thought being you should really run through the duty and if you have an issue there switch to the standby while your replace the duty. That way bad fuel will not take the engine down. He told me that his filters are also set to both at the advice of his mechanic.

I don't get it. I am having the Lugger guy come before the end of the year to do the annual and this is YET another question I have!

It could be that while in US waters, where fuel is more reliable, you get longer between filter changes, watch your filter pressure gauge, and then change both at the same time.

But not sure that is the best way all the same.

I have the same system for my propulsion engine. Running on both makes no sense. If you run on both and develop a clogged filter, they're both clogged. I run on one, so that I'm able to switch to a clean filter in an emergency. The Racor 1,000 is rated for 180 GPH per filter, so flow shouldn't be an issue.

Ted

FootballFan · Sep 12, 2016

menzies said:
When I first took a look at this set up I thought "Holy Moly, how am I going to work all of this out," this is extremely complex.

But when I sat back and read the labeling (which is well done), it is all very clear and well laid out.

Anyone else with a "seemingly" complicated set up?

I like the labeling with plastic ties. In some applications could imagine they could be inadvertently pulled off. For this usage I think it would be preferred.

Mark

Capt.Bill11 · Sep 12, 2016

menzies said:
Here are a couple of photos. The first one with red lines in the flow coming from the tanks and going to the engines. With a transfer line. The second one with yellow lines are the return flows coming back from the engines to the tanks, with a transfer line.

Three tanks, Starboard, Port and Forward.

Tags are on there with cable ties.

What I've done as a backup is to put label maker labels on the valve handles. Just in case a tag "disappears".

cappy208 · Sep 12, 2016

No pics. But PO used 3 way valves. Open l, open R , both. And they are on both supply and return of port and STBD tank. I can take from either side, or both and return to either side , or both. What seems to happen in practice though more returns to STBD side when open both. So I run off one side for a month. (Returning to same side). Then Switch to other side to even out.

This is valve type. http://www.westmarine.com/buy/sierra--valve-3-way-1-4-fnpt-universal--14605281

knuckelbuster · Sep 13, 2016

On my 4588 I too have the main fuel board that others have posted. Here is an excerpt from my Out-A-Sight user manual.

FootballFan · Sep 13, 2016

O C Diver said:
I have the same system for my propulsion engine. Running on both makes no sense. If you run on both and develop a clogged filter, they're both clogged. I run on one, so that I'm able to switch to a clean filter in an emergency. The Racor 1,000 is rated for 180 GPH per filter, so flow shouldn't be an issue.

Ted

I have heard this discussion multiple times - whether to run on one racor and have a second as a hot standby or run on both.

A friend who I respect very much subscribes to the increased filter area of running on both. Clogs wont happen as fast, regular changes of filters before they get totally clogged.

I subscribe to the run on one, and have a hot standby approach. My experience has been a lot of times the clogging of a filter can come on pretty fast. Once I know I have an issue - I can switch over to a clean filter and have that engine available for a period of time to position the boat to a location where I want it to be when I change the filter. It's no fun sitting in rolling seas, one engine trying to maintain steerage while you have to change out filters.

Mark

smitty477 · Sep 13, 2016

"A friend who I respect very much subscribes to the increased filter area of running on both. Clogs wont happen as fast, regular changes of filters before they get totally clogged"

If this is the goal then add a bulk filter up line with a separate vac gage to achieve the longest filter life. Utilizing two finer filters in parallel to achieve that goal is not the best use of hardware or money.

O C Diver · Sep 13, 2016

FootballFan said:
I have heard this discussion multiple times - whether to run on one racor and have a second as a hot standby or run on both.

A friend who I respect very much subscribes to the increased filter area of running on both. Clogs wont happen as fast, regular changes of filters before they get totally clogged.

I subscribe to the run on one, and have a hot standby approach. My experience has been a lot of times the clogging of a filter can come on pretty fast. Once I know I have an issue - I can switch over to a clean filter and have that engine available for a period of time to position the boat to a location where I want it to be when I change the filter. It's no fun sitting in rolling seas, one engine trying to maintain steerage while you have to change out filters.

Mark

Vacuum gauge:
If you're going to invest this kind of money in a dual separator system, it's crazy not to have a vacuum gauge at the helm to warn you of a fouling filter. Unless the separator is undersized, you have lots of time (probably hours) to switch filters, from when you first start seeing a rise in vacuum.

Left one is engine. Right one is fuel polisher.

Ted

Show Us Your Fuel Valves

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