A scary night on the water last night...

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Good grief! 89 responses! Thank you Mike and Tina for posting and responding. And thank the rest of you for chiming in. That's what this forum is for, and we all benefit.
 
dhays said:
Come on.... His anchor light may have been on, but he was moving and was under sail. He was in violation of the rules by leaving the light on but that doesn't change the fact that he was under sail. The light also had no influence on the incident or the outcome. If anything, it made the boat more visible. FWIW, I have also used the flashlight on the sail trick at night, even though it tends to trash our own night vision...
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:thumb:. The mast head light is irrelevant, the OP knew there was a sailing sailboat present and was not misled. Continuing observation of the sailboat and timely appropriate action to avoid danger is a live issue. 5 blasts would have been a good first step to defusing the developing situation.
But whatever view you take, the analysis from a divergent range of points of view is helpful to us all.
And, vision need not worsen with age, if you get your cataracts done. Highly recommended.
 
SaltyDawg86 said:
Knowing the rules wont keep people safe? I've heard it all now. To hell with rules, I'll remember that next time I'm northbound in the Mississippi River on a loaded tanker!
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I didn't say that. In fact, I said "There's a balance. I consider rules important."

Being on a tanker is much different that what the OP was describing and what the recreational boater faces. Now, my reaction to tankers, cargo liners, and cruise boats is to make it as easy as possible for them. If any question I speak to them, but I always give way to them, simply because I know my boat is far more maneuverable than their vessel. I know you have great experience on a tanker, but the OP's situation was just a simple and common recreational situation. I've faced hundreds of recreational boats not following regs or rules and I do what is necessary to avoid accidents. I'm not the one to teach them the rules. I'm more of the attitude of "ok, you're wrong, but go ahead and I'll make sure I don't hit you." When I'm facing a commercial ship, I assume they know the rules and if I sound the horn, they'll know what that means. The majority of recreational vessels do not have a mastery of all the rules.
 
well sailors...we have a couple people that think it's OK to run your motor, keep the sails up and do whatever you want. Have at it....:thumb:


wonder what's next....:rofl:
 
dhays said:
You made my day! I have a strong vocabulary and it is an exceedingly rare and pleasant experience to come across a term that I am unfamiliar with. I have never heard the term "allision" and had no idea what it meant. Thanks! :dance:
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Reading CG and NTSB reports brought it into our vocabularies. We had never used it before seeing it there. However, it makes sense to have a separate term for those accidents.
 
I remember when the USCG started being adamant about using the term allision with boats striking bridges.


In the field we were "what the heck is the difference?"...but I guess the Marine Safety Offices and the lawyers thought it was the term to use...obviously it had ramafications for maritime hearings and fault finding..
 
psneeld said:
well sailors...we have a couple people that think it's OK to run your motor, keep the sails up and do whatever you want. Have at it....:thumb:


wonder what's next....:rofl:
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What's next. Same as before. If you're out on the water enough, you'll see everything. A lot of what you'll see will make no sense. Some will be total stupidity.

Oh, I thought the sailor rule was sailboats always rule. Now, I know the majority don't feel that way but on the water you will see many who do and think it's your job to avoid them, whatever they do.

There is a worse group though PWC's. I've seen them cut right in front of cargo ships, apparently not grasping that if they did fall or stop, there is no way the ship could stop. I've had them come within less than 10' of my stern wanting to get a huge wake to jump and seen them get airborne and return to the water no longer on the PWC.

Everywhere we boat has different challenges. On the lake the disparity in speeds led to issues. You had a lot of 60 mph bass boats who were in huge hurries to get to the next fishing hole.

You're right about rules for 2 boats. A busy lake on a Sunday with thousands of boats, there are no rules.
 
psneeld said:
I remember when the USCG started being adamant about using the term allision with boats striking bridges.


In the field we were "what the heck is the difference?"...but I guess the Marine Safety Offices and the lawyers thought it was the term to use...obviously it had ramafications for maritime hearings and fault finding..
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I think the key in hearings and fault findings is that in an allision it's easy to assign fault and only in the rarest of cases can it be assigned to anyone other than the boat underway. Boat runs into bridge that has been there for 30 years and not moved, going to be very difficult to blame the bridge.
 
Well this certainly has turned into an interesting thread. I expected it to run to about 10-15 posts and here we are over 90 posts. Wow.

I have learned several things from this thread:
--many people on TF are much more knowledgeable about COLREGS than I. Will I study them more? Probably, but not to the extent that many of you have done.
--when you see a 'target' at night, don't lose sight of it and expect it to do the worst possible thing.
--if you screw up on TF and post about it, expect to get your arse cleaned out by the Roto Rooter man.

Seriously, I have been a boater for almost 65 years of my near-70, but I admit there was a gap in the middle of all that as I went to school, joined the USAF for 7 years, raised a family, etc. I've now owned a boat consistently for over 35 years. During that time I've only been involved in one major mishap and that's when I was hit by a drunk boater and my boat was totaled.

I would say that, all things considered, I'm a VERY safe boater. When I'm on or around the boat, safety is my number one rule. Thanks to all of you for your comments. Some were kind, some not so kind, but they all were appreciated.
 
Most operators have enough of a sixth sense that even when everything is going wrong...disaster is averted before the bottom line.


You averted an accident...sooooo.... you probably are very safe despite the things you pointed out that you might have done differently.


To even recognize those things says a lot. :thumb:


Like I posted...a close call but a minor one...not like you grazed the side of a supertanker.


Learn, move on and enjoy! :dance:


Too many worry warts give me a headache.... :eek:

.... and I am the cautious one most of the time. :D
 
Gdavid said:
Can you clarify the sailboats light display? (Edit: I just noticed post 56 where you cleared it up) You said 360 degree light and it's green starboard light. Are you referring to the tricolor as the 360 or was it displaying it's anchor light. Either case would have been incorrect as a sailboat should not display both the tricolor and deck level navigational lights but it is commonly done and it certainly shouldn't have displayed an all around white but others have pointed out, an anchor light would appear as a steaming light even if it is at the top of the mast, typically when motor sailing there is no headsail so a steaming light halfway up the mast would show but if you are motor sailing with a jib/genoa it would be obscured from leeward.
Yes, it was a 360* white light, not a tri-color. I could see it was white when we first spotted him and even after he passed us it was still showing white.

You also said that the sailboat was moving very slowly when you first saw it, yet your diagram shows the yellow path being roughly 3-4 times longer than your path from point D to the point of intersection. I'm sure your diagram isn't to perfect scale and distances are hard to estimate at night, but you must have been moving extremely slowly for this diagram to match the event. If his final course was a starboard tack broad reach, he would have been going straight upwind from point A to B.

My drawing on that photo is definitely not to scale. We were moving at around 6 kts at that point. When we first spotted him we had just come under the bridge that is shown behind us on the photo. We continued to track him well into his path along the north shore of the river and I only stopped watching him somewhere along that path. With a SSW wind that was blowing, he had the wind on his aft port quarter as he went from A to B, then on his port forward quarter as he went from B to C. As he approached us from our port side and passed in front of us he was heeled away from us, his boat heeling to his port side. That is when I saw his green nav light and and white mast light.

Most of us spend very little time on the water at night and it is skill that requires a lot of practice for true proficiency. It can feel so vacant on the water, that many are lulled into a false sense of solitude. If you were moving as slowly as the your diagram would suggest, he probably didn't distinguish your lights from those on shore behind you. Personally, taking 1/8 - 1/4 mile away from you was not a failure to Stand On, given the location, that is a relatively long distance away and should have been plenty of time for the burdened vessel to avoid him. He also has a responsibility to himself to live to see tomorrow and he could have been more defensive.


(If he was on a indeed on a starboard broad reach, the diagram is accurate and the wind didn't shift, he didn't tack at between C and where your paths met, he just bore away)
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Given that we could see his red nav light and white mast light from when we first saw him at A and as he sailed along the shore toward C I could tell he was proceeding on a course that was reciprocal to ours. That is why I stopped watching him and was more focused on looking for other boats. Because I was able to see his red nav light at first then his green light as he crossed in front of us he must have tacked.
 
psneeld said:
Most operators have enough of a sixth sense that even when everything is going wrong...disaster is averted before the bottom line.


You averted an accident...sooooo.... you probably are very safe despite the things you pointed out that you might have done differently.


To even recognize those things says a lot. :thumb:


Like I posted...a close call but a minor one...not like you grazed the side of a supertanker.


Learn, move on and enjoy! :dance:


Too many worry warts give me a headache.... :eek:

.... and I am the cautious one most of the time. :D
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And so very few boating collisions are a result of any debate over right of way or who should give way. They're typically one doesn't see the other or isn't paying attention and runs into it at full speed with no issue of who was right or wrong.
 
In response to someone's request for pics of the ladies we had on board, here are a few to enjoy. These were taken while we were drifting and waiting for the sun to set...

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img_479347_2_2e0b68c68309e33b0bbdda3ca77b5bf9.jpg


img_479347_3_3d25c9e1cf9ac4d33f61f4cde595b2bf.jpg
 
GFC, I don't have the time to read this entire post. I just want to say thank you for opening your situation up to criticism so we can all learn. I agree with PSN, this is not that big of a deal. But it is good discussion.

Thanks again!!!!
 
GFC said:
In response to someone's request for pics of the ladies we had on board, here are a few to enjoy. These were taken while we were drifting and waiting for the sun to set...
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Mike

Now everything is clear ! I finally understand why the skipper of the sailboat quickly changed his course to one perpendicular to your course, so many pretty ladies can't be missed, at any price !! :D
 
I presume every boater is ignorant of the Colregs and isn't posting a proper lookout. Fortunately, that isn't usually the case, but one can't count on it.

This Saturday, a small catamaran (traveling between two and three times my six-knot speed) was tacking westward in Carquinez Strait, using only 25% of the strait's width. While heading in the same direction, he tacked forward of my course a couple times, getting closer each time. While I'm heading on a steady course, his last tack avoided me. :flowers:
 
Mark: Those pesky Sail-Cat switch-backs could be better observed from a fly-bridge.:hide:
 
SaltyDawg86 said:
I'm also willing to bet that is not what BandB was getting at as well. But I laugh at hearing "there is the book then there is real life". That book covers real life. There is not a situation you can get into that the Rules hasnt covered. I know this because it is my real life. I put food on the table and a roof over my family's head because I work on the water. These rules keep me from getting into a collision.

It doesnt take long to learn them, at least the main rules. Make time to learn them and what they mean to keep everyone on the watet safe.
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I think we all get that Salty, but as BandB said...most know the rules, but if you're in a car, and you have a green, and you see the other guy is not going to stop on his red...'nuff said..? :nonono:
 
omc said:
Mike

Now everything is clear ! I finally understand why the skipper of the sailboat quickly changed his course to one perpendicular to your course, so many pretty ladies can't be missed, at any price !! :D
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Ah, mon ami, parlé comme un vrai français :D
 
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The banner photo on the Facebook page is scary enough :eek:.
 

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Capt.Bill11 said:
I don't think there was any real decision process involved there.

Just a near miss with Darwinism.
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I figured he was just gonna jump the wake...

When he went alongside and past amidships.....and then went in the water...I was waiting for the red water......:eek:
 
As a famous comedian puts it, "That boy's got a lot of stupid in him".

Ted
 
O C Diver said:
As a famous comedian puts it, "That boy's got a lot of stupid in him".

Ted
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Yeah....but he might get on tv, have his 5 minutes of fame, claim to be a boating expert.....

Become a consultant, make a few million a year and have one of the nicest trawlers on TF.

Then he will have a following, believing his every word because of his beautiful boat and exploits....:eek:

Ohhhhhh....thankfully I just woke up....but anything can happen in America....:D
 
GFC said:
With a SSW wind that was blowing, he had the wind on his aft port quarter as he went from A to B, then on his port forward quarter as he went from B to C. As he approached us from our port side and passed in front of us he was heeled away from us, his boat heeling to his port side. That is when I saw his green nav light and and white mast light.
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Earlier you stated:

GFC said:
He was on a broad reach, sailing almost directly across the wind as he approached our course. His boat was heeled away from us so he would have had his back to the wind. Assuming that he would have been watching the area ahead of his course he most certainly would have seen us on a closing path.
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This is what confused me, it certainly doesn't matter but I was just trying to fully understand the situation. Thanks again for sharing and hopefully we are all safer for having the discussion.
 
psneeld said:
Actually, if the sailboat had a white light showing foreward, it wasn't a sailboat but a powerboat with sails up...not sure how that changed the "rules".

Also if in a confined waterway...one might consider it a narrow channel and again the sailboat may have been in the wrong. Rule 9.

I am not going to nit pick a situation that I have no evidence in.... but stopping your boat and missing another by 15 yards isn't even a close call in my neck of the woods.

I had near misses like that 10 times a day when towing in the NJ ICW..... and heck had striped bass trollers miss me by less the whole upper part of the Chesapeake Bay last December headed south...fortunately in daylight.

That's really why the navrules/Colregs are BS for boats like most of ours.....we are responsible to avoid collisions...and it's pretty dang easy with reverse.

The trick is seeing all the chuckleheads before they get to close...and that may be me sometimes because I am watching out for the third chucklehead in the situation.
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Well put: Obviously level head statement with decades experience to back it up.

"I once knew a sailor named Michael O'Day. He died defending his right of way. He was right, dead right, as he sailed along - BUT - He's just as dead as if he were wrong."

When collision is eminent it is each boats' Captain's responsibility to take maneuvering actions that can circumvent the collision. - Period!
 
BandB said:
... If you're out on the water enough, you'll see everything. A lot of what you'll see will make no sense. Some will be total stupidity.
...

There is a worse group though PWC's. I've seen them cut right in front of cargo ships, apparently not grasping that if they did fall or stop, there is no way the ship could stop. I've had them come within less than 10' of my stern wanting to get a huge wake to jump and seen them get airborne and return to the water no longer on the PWC.

Everywhere we boat has different challenges. On the lake the disparity in speeds led to issues. You had a lot of 60 mph bass boats who were in huge hurries to get to the next fishing hole.

You're right about rules for 2 boats. A busy lake on a Sunday with thousands of boats, there are no rules.
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That was an eye-opener for me this year. Previous experience has been sailboat racing (lots) or operating around commercial traffic, where you signal intentions early and abide by the rules. This summer I spent a lot of time in Ontario cottage country in my trawler, and the first couple of busy weekends were white knuckle as I tried to plot a safe course through the countless PWCs and small boats buzzing around me, most at >5x my speed. Eventually I figured out that if I maintained my course and speed they would all avoid me - the Big Slow Boat Rule - but it took a while for me to get comfortable with that.
 
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