Not sure I can buy another boat. . .
- Thread starter cool beans
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OP
OP
cool beans
Senior Member
Ok, "junk" might be subjective 
The boats I'm looking at look like they have sat around unused for several years before the owner decided (or was forced) to put it up for sale. From Craigslist to brokerage boats. Oldest was a 1968 hatteras, newest was a 1992 Catalina 36. I had high hopes for the Catalina being newer and respectably high asking price might reflect it's condition. No. . .noticed the head door had some funny gaps, bulkhead trim widened out to a 1/4" gap, screws pulled off axis. . .clever inspection mirror and cell phone pictures revealed a rotten mast step. Also found freeze damage in the floor frames, wet and splitting rudder, binnacle someone removed all the screws out of. If you sighted along the hull on the starboard side, there was a slight wave just aft of midships, and evidence the hull had been poorly painted then cut and buffed. Lots of PO diy fixes, frozen thru hulls, rotten hoses, etc.
How do you not take good care of what you think is a $54,000 boat
Typically I'm finding thru hulls that are scary, dry rotting hoses, rust ball engines covered in filth with multi-colored cooling apparatuses and cracking hoses, batteries covered in acid, frayed/green/black cables, leaking everything, bilges covered in or filled with boat juices, leaking widows and staining/rot, rusty tanks (or leaking), soft decks, corroding shafts, old cushions, old everything. . .
Most of the above I've already dealt with via repairing or replacing (even rebuilt my engine, black on red. Very snazzy
) on my sailboat on a smaller scale. Contemplating the effort to do it again on a trawler sized scale is a turn off (ie. kicking myself in the crotch again).
Maybe I'm too anal-retentive. I've never been on a "turn-key" boat to compare. Even fellow members here who have toured me their boats have shown me basically the above. They love them, they use them, and I respect them for that (hell, my boat is no where near perfect), but can I buy into one like that? Possibly the right boat, possibly. . .but. . .
_______________________________________
Yes! I am shocked, still. . .my Sailboat is my first foray into "Real Boats". Before that it was bayliners and wellcrafts on trailers. For all the boats I've looked at; I can find whats wrong or going to be wrong, how to fix it, how much to fix it, how long to fix it, how to take care of it. . .but I can't really tell you why a crappy 35 yr old Monk 36 will sell for 3 times as much and twice as fast as a crappy 35 yr old Ablin 36 for similar deficiencies. It's all plastic and wood to me, built before I was born, in another country (possibly by the same craftsmen)
So please expand on the above quotes, those got me thinking that I'm totally missing something here.
Well, really for the last year I've been hell-bent on finding another boat so I've short shortsightedly spent my nice/free weekends traveling
And then there is the fact I live on my smallish project sailboat. So I have to pack up my life and whatever unfinished project is stewing to go out. Like this saturday. It is looking kind of nice. I'm starting tonight to start the process of picking up/stowing/packing away so Saturday morning I can check the weather then go.
Heeling can make a mess if you have a lot of loose stuff and no where to put it! I'm hoping a trawler will provide more room to live, but also provide space to put things away behind doors and of course not lean so much
Yes it is! The fanciest electrical gadget I've added to my boat so far is a light for my ancient Windex so I can see it at night if need be :lol: I could also go for a water heater but don't the room currently. . .
So there! How is that for a wall of text?
The boats I'm looking at look like they have sat around unused for several years before the owner decided (or was forced) to put it up for sale. From Craigslist to brokerage boats. Oldest was a 1968 hatteras, newest was a 1992 Catalina 36. I had high hopes for the Catalina being newer and respectably high asking price might reflect it's condition. No. . .noticed the head door had some funny gaps, bulkhead trim widened out to a 1/4" gap, screws pulled off axis. . .clever inspection mirror and cell phone pictures revealed a rotten mast step. Also found freeze damage in the floor frames, wet and splitting rudder, binnacle someone removed all the screws out of. If you sighted along the hull on the starboard side, there was a slight wave just aft of midships, and evidence the hull had been poorly painted then cut and buffed. Lots of PO diy fixes, frozen thru hulls, rotten hoses, etc.
How do you not take good care of what you think is a $54,000 boat
Typically I'm finding thru hulls that are scary, dry rotting hoses, rust ball engines covered in filth with multi-colored cooling apparatuses and cracking hoses, batteries covered in acid, frayed/green/black cables, leaking everything, bilges covered in or filled with boat juices, leaking widows and staining/rot, rusty tanks (or leaking), soft decks, corroding shafts, old cushions, old everything. . .
Most of the above I've already dealt with via repairing or replacing (even rebuilt my engine, black on red. Very snazzy
) on my sailboat on a smaller scale. Contemplating the effort to do it again on a trawler sized scale is a turn off (ie. kicking myself in the crotch again).Maybe I'm too anal-retentive. I've never been on a "turn-key" boat to compare. Even fellow members here who have toured me their boats have shown me basically the above. They love them, they use them, and I respect them for that (hell, my boat is no where near perfect), but can I buy into one like that? Possibly the right boat, possibly. . .but. . .
_______________________________________
Yes! I am shocked, still. . .my Sailboat is my first foray into "Real Boats". Before that it was bayliners and wellcrafts on trailers. For all the boats I've looked at; I can find whats wrong or going to be wrong, how to fix it, how much to fix it, how long to fix it, how to take care of it. . .but I can't really tell you why a crappy 35 yr old Monk 36 will sell for 3 times as much and twice as fast as a crappy 35 yr old Ablin 36 for similar deficiencies. It's all plastic and wood to me, built before I was born, in another country (possibly by the same craftsmen)
So please expand on the above quotes, those got me thinking that I'm totally missing something here.
Well, really for the last year I've been hell-bent on finding another boat so I've short shortsightedly spent my nice/free weekends traveling
And then there is the fact I live on my smallish project sailboat. So I have to pack up my life and whatever unfinished project is stewing to go out. Like this saturday. It is looking kind of nice. I'm starting tonight to start the process of picking up/stowing/packing away so Saturday morning I can check the weather then go.Heeling can make a mess if you have a lot of loose stuff and no where to put it! I'm hoping a trawler will provide more room to live, but also provide space to put things away behind doors and of course not lean so much
Yes it is! The fanciest electrical gadget I've added to my boat so far is a light for my ancient Windex so I can see it at night if need be :lol: I could also go for a water heater but don't the room currently. . .
So there! How is that for a wall of text?
OP
OP
cool beans
Senior Member
Family and friends always remind me of that!
hmason
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Rules to live by:
1. "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have"
Sheryl Crow
2. "And all your money not another minute buys"
Kansas
3. "If money can fix it, it's not worth worrying about"
My Dad (RIP)
1. "It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you have"
Sheryl Crow
2. "And all your money not another minute buys"
Kansas
3. "If money can fix it, it's not worth worrying about"
My Dad (RIP)
Cool Beans
I have one suggestion and that is to find a buyer's broker you really feel you can trust. I know it's not the price range they might normally be interested in but some would be willing to assist.
You're scatter shooting rather than focused on a target. You need to write down your requirements in detail, both the wants and the must haves. Put your price range including any rehab work. Work with the broker if you choose that route. Otherwise look only within those that match with condition being one of your requirements. Have them send you current photos of exactly what you choose. Find out the history of the boat.
From a 1968 Hatteras to a 1992 Catalina is a wide span. You need to narrow it down more.
Most of the things you mention below could have been found by current photos. And while searching, get out and enjoy your current boat.
I have one suggestion and that is to find a buyer's broker you really feel you can trust. I know it's not the price range they might normally be interested in but some would be willing to assist.
You're scatter shooting rather than focused on a target. You need to write down your requirements in detail, both the wants and the must haves. Put your price range including any rehab work. Work with the broker if you choose that route. Otherwise look only within those that match with condition being one of your requirements. Have them send you current photos of exactly what you choose. Find out the history of the boat.
From a 1968 Hatteras to a 1992 Catalina is a wide span. You need to narrow it down more.
Most of the things you mention below could have been found by current photos. And while searching, get out and enjoy your current boat.
SaltyDawg86
Senior Member
What do you consider turn key and what do you expect for 50-60k?
healhustler
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Beans: I think I could have written your first post. I've put so much work into the boat I have, there's no way I intend to buy another one and do the same. Meanwhile, I keep looking for that dream boat that has and is everything. I suppose that boat could even exist, but not for less than a million or two. Duh!
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Yes, I think most would agree, that however new and well-fitted out any boat you could buy was, the minute you took possession of it, you would think of several almost immediate must dos or haves that needed doing.
ranger58sb
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Yes! I am shocked, still. . .my Sailboat is my first foray into "Real Boats". Before that it was bayliners and wellcrafts on trailers. For all the boats I've looked at; I can find whats wrong or going to be wrong, how to fix it, how much to fix it, how long to fix it, how to take care of it. . .but I can't really tell you why a crappy 35 yr old Monk 36 will sell for 3 times as much and twice as fast as a crappy 35 yr old Ablin 36 for similar deficiencies. It's all plastic and wood to me, built before I was born, in another country (possibly by the same craftsmen)
So please expand on the above quotes, those got me thinking that I'm totally missing something here.
Unless you speak of specific instance where you know a 35 year old Monk actually sold for 3x a 35 year old Albin... I'd guess it maybe really didn't happen. Maybe a big disparity in price, but maybe not near as much as the difference in "asking" price might have suggested... and maybe explainable by other factors -- like how much "deferred maintenance" the new owner was gonna have to (was willing to) fix, etc.
Expansion on idea (above): STOP shopping for crap. Define the feature you need, features you want, features that would be nice to have... and then go find boats that offer those features. At first, without regard to price. (Although it's probably OK to omit the brand new Vikings and Hatteras and Nordhavns and so forth.)
Once you find likely boats/brands/models/etc... THEN begin thinking about the price issue.
You may still find you can't get there from here, but you might at the same time find that out -- for the right reason. Might be about your expectations, your budget, market issues, whatever.
But because you're shopping for crap, all you're finding is crap.
-Chris
healhustler
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Also had the privilege of doing an overnight at Fred's. His consistent advice of simplicity is nearly as legendary as is his hospitality and application of unique nomenclature, and long before I got here. I'm hardly offended when he sometimes pokes fun at the overly-complex systems of my 36 ft. roomorand! His is an idea of adding value and economy through simplicity, not austerity.
OP
OP
cool beans
Senior Member
Would a buyers broker help me focus some? I will admit my list of wants and needs is fairly generic, which doesn't help. Comfier bed (no preference vs v-berth, centerline, athwartships, pullman, etc.), larger galley, more room for freinds/family to go out, more tankage. . .prefer non-turbo diesel.
That Hatteras and Catalina are a bit apart on the comparison scale, but I've focused slightly since then. Just from my live aboard experience, I'd really like to be able to squeeze some kind of laundry facilities into the boat. Even if it is a Splendide for rainy days.
Is a buyers broker someone you hire? is there a list of them out there like a SAMS surveyors?
Ranger42c, that was more to illustrate my lack of understanding. There seems a big price disparity between the 2 examples (or with a grand banks). Given similar conditions, I'm not sure why I would pay more for one over the other.
As with B&B's advice of a buyers broker, would they steer me clear of crap? Not that I was shopping for it on purpose (as least I don't think I was). Most of the brokers I've dealt with so far were either "mailing it in" or wanted a contract (to be expected I guess).
To me, "turn key" would be something I could take out the following weekend without having to worry about anything mechanically for at least awhile (within reason). Cosmetics doesn't come into play, unless the PO turned it into something aesthetically gross that I wouldn't buy.
For $50-60k I expect a "turn key" boat as I've defined it. I'm not shopping for bargain kadey-krogens. I'm looking at older, mass produced, middle of the road production boats. I don't (at least I didn't) think I was being unreasonable
Appreciate all the advice, but I got homework to do so no wall of text tonight :lol:
That Hatteras and Catalina are a bit apart on the comparison scale, but I've focused slightly since then. Just from my live aboard experience, I'd really like to be able to squeeze some kind of laundry facilities into the boat. Even if it is a Splendide for rainy days.
Is a buyers broker someone you hire? is there a list of them out there like a SAMS surveyors?
Ranger42c, that was more to illustrate my lack of understanding. There seems a big price disparity between the 2 examples (or with a grand banks). Given similar conditions, I'm not sure why I would pay more for one over the other.
As with B&B's advice of a buyers broker, would they steer me clear of crap? Not that I was shopping for it on purpose (as least I don't think I was). Most of the brokers I've dealt with so far were either "mailing it in" or wanted a contract (to be expected I guess).
To me, "turn key" would be something I could take out the following weekend without having to worry about anything mechanically for at least awhile (within reason). Cosmetics doesn't come into play, unless the PO turned it into something aesthetically gross that I wouldn't buy.
For $50-60k I expect a "turn key" boat as I've defined it. I'm not shopping for bargain kadey-krogens. I'm looking at older, mass produced, middle of the road production boats. I don't (at least I didn't) think I was being unreasonable
Appreciate all the advice, but I got homework to do so no wall of text tonight :lol:
I believe a good buyer's broker would. You just ask about brokers in your area and find someone who others recommend.
If you can't find one, finding a friend you trust to not try to push his view on you, but to just force you to focus a bit more.
And the other possibility is putting some things in writing. With all your requirements in writing then as you see boats online you have something to evaluate against. And I wouldn't make any more long trips without being provided some current pictures determined by you.
Right now you're searching for something that may not exist exactly as you prefer but you haven't determined which of your desires are really important to you.
Is $50-60k your initial purchase amount or does that include all work to be done to get it as you want? If it does, then you're probably looking for boats in the $40k to a max of $50k range.
In doing a little search, one thing I noticed is a lot of sportfishing boats in your range.
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psneeld
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Would a buyers broker help me focus some? I will admit my list of wants and needs is fairly generic, which doesn't help. Comfier bed (no preference vs v-berth, centerline, athwartships, pullman, etc.), larger galley, more room for freinds/family to go out, more tankage. . .prefer non-turbo diesel.
That Hatteras and Catalina are a bit apart on the comparison scale, but I've focused slightly since then. Just from my live aboard experience, I'd really like to be able to squeeze some kind of laundry facilities into the boat. Even if it is a Splendide for rainy days.
Is a buyers broker someone you hire? is there a list of them out there like a SAMS surveyors?
Ranger42c, that was more to illustrate my lack of understanding. There seems a big price disparity between the 2 examples (or with a grand banks). Given similar conditions, I'm not sure why I would pay more for one over the other.
As with B&B's advice of a buyers broker, would they steer me clear of crap? Not that I was shopping for it on purpose (as least I don't think I was). Most of the brokers I've dealt with so far were either "mailing it in" or wanted a contract (to be expected I guess).
To me, "turn key" would be something I could take out the following weekend without having to worry about anything mechanically for at least awhile (within reason). Cosmetics doesn't come into play, unless the PO turned it into something aesthetically gross that I wouldn't buy.
For $50-60k I expect a "turn key" boat as I've defined it. I'm not shopping for bargain kadey-krogens. I'm looking at older, mass produced, middle of the road production boats. I don't (at least I didn't) think I was being unreasonable
Appreciate all the advice, but I got homework to do so no wall of text tonight :lol:
For $50k asking...a decent boat will come along, far from perfect...but not necessarily a project boat if you stay 36 feet and below in the typical trawler arena. Old Trojans, Pacemakers, Silvertons, etc...etc can be a good buy for way less...again in the 36 foot range and down. Trawlers in the 40 and up range, to get beyond project boat, look in the $80K to $100K range and expect to pay around $75K.
At least that was my exoerience..a broker may find a better range.
Mine was in the upper $50 range and was cruising ready...but still was disintegrating faster than I can keep up on now a 8 to 10 year rebuild plan...fortunately had a newly rebuilt engine.
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FF
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"but still was disintegrating faster than I can keep up on now a 8 to 10 year rebuild plan.."
This comment is the key to pleasant boat ownership.
Some construction methods are doomed to fail , eventually and constantly.
Learning which boats do not require constant deck and PH rebuilds will save a load of future effort and grief..
This comment is the key to pleasant boat ownership.
Some construction methods are doomed to fail , eventually and constantly.
Learning which boats do not require constant deck and PH rebuilds will save a load of future effort and grief..
ranger58sb
Guru
Fair enough, but I'd guess in general your "lack of understanding" -- in an example like that specific one -- was maybe exactly in tune with what your reaction should have been. IOW, I suspect sellers some times pull asking prices out of their... ummm... nostrils... and you'd be right to query price disparities.
As to buyer's brokers... I think potentially very useful (we had great success with one, once)... but there's brokers and then there's brokers... and to be fair, you gotta give them something to work with. A list of requirements, broken down in some semi-prioritized manner... otherwise, all they've got is a scattergun, too.
FWIW, I can maybe help a bit, with one specific brand... not to help you find and buy one of those, but rather to help you use those to examine what your requirements might be. Sort of a "examine by example" approach. If you want to pursue that, PM me and I'll see what I can do.
-Chris
dhays
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Beans, I think the problem is that your price and expectations are too far apart. Sure there are plenty of boats on the market that aren't priced reasonably, but I think you have to expect that a 25 year old boat is going to have issues.
I sold my 1983 Catalina 36 six years ago. It was at the the time that was bottom of the boat market. The boat was in decent shape, the motor was in decent shape, the batteries were getting a bit old, and the electronics, while not original, weren't entirely new either. Lots of upgrades, but it was still an old boat. It did have soft spots on the deck that would take about $10k to have professionally repaired. That was the only major issue the boat had. I sold it for $24k. It was "turn-key" in that it was ready to cruise safely, but it was not in perfect condition by any stretch. The motor was dirty, the bilge wasn't squeaky clean but it didn't smell and it was very dry inside (other than the bilge since it is a keel stepped mast in the PNW).
My point is that if you want a boat that won't take work, don't get a boat. If you want a boat that doesn't show its years, buy a new boat. The market is a pretty simple sliding scale. The cleaner and better condition the boat, the higher the price. The more tired a boat is, the lower the price. So unless you just have had the misfortune to look at boats that are unreasonably priced, I think you need to adjust your budget, your expectations, or both.
A buyers broker could be helpful but as BandB said, only after you have clearly identified what you are looking for. A broker can tell you what a reasonable price range would be for the type of boat you are looking for.
I sold my 1983 Catalina 36 six years ago. It was at the the time that was bottom of the boat market. The boat was in decent shape, the motor was in decent shape, the batteries were getting a bit old, and the electronics, while not original, weren't entirely new either. Lots of upgrades, but it was still an old boat. It did have soft spots on the deck that would take about $10k to have professionally repaired. That was the only major issue the boat had. I sold it for $24k. It was "turn-key" in that it was ready to cruise safely, but it was not in perfect condition by any stretch. The motor was dirty, the bilge wasn't squeaky clean but it didn't smell and it was very dry inside (other than the bilge since it is a keel stepped mast in the PNW).
My point is that if you want a boat that won't take work, don't get a boat. If you want a boat that doesn't show its years, buy a new boat. The market is a pretty simple sliding scale. The cleaner and better condition the boat, the higher the price. The more tired a boat is, the lower the price. So unless you just have had the misfortune to look at boats that are unreasonably priced, I think you need to adjust your budget, your expectations, or both.
A buyers broker could be helpful but as BandB said, only after you have clearly identified what you are looking for. A broker can tell you what a reasonable price range would be for the type of boat you are looking for.
OP
OP
cool beans
Senior Member
Lots to digest and think about. One conclusion I've come to is my quest for a large boat was to make up for the short comings of my home marina which is a working boatyard. Nice that they let a few of us stay there, and it is inexpensive, but has it's draw backs. Biggest for me have been the lack of usable showers and no onsite laundry. Driving to go do laundry or take a hot shower at the gym gets old quick.
So for now I'm taking a break from boat shopping. Going to use my boat at least thru the fall with out thinking about having to try and sell 'er. I'm also going to start a lease on a slip in one of the nicest, if not most expensive, marinas in the area. Might as well go full tilt and move into a Yachtsman's Marina
Maybe a change like this will lead to a change in perspective. I'll follow up some more later, right now it's time for bed
So for now I'm taking a break from boat shopping. Going to use my boat at least thru the fall with out thinking about having to try and sell 'er. I'm also going to start a lease on a slip in one of the nicest, if not most expensive, marinas in the area. Might as well go full tilt and move into a Yachtsman's Marina
Maybe a change like this will lead to a change in perspective. I'll follow up some more later, right now it's time for bed
Maybe a change like this will lead to a change in perspective. I'll follow up some more later, right now it's time for bed
I think it very well could. You think at first the shortcomings of the other marina won't bother you, but then you realize they are cutting back your enjoyment.
I'm not familiar with Yachtsman's. Where is it?
dhays
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I'm also going to start a lease on a slip in one of the nicest, if not most expensive, marinas in the area. Might as well go full tilt and move into a Yachtsman's Marina
I believe "Yachtsman" is a type and not a specific marina. In other words a marina that caters to men that own yachts and not a working marina such as he is in now.
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FWIW, I'm behind WifeyB 100%.
.....and I agree, it's off-putting to have to swallow the mentality of opinion being presented as FACT. Sometimes people try to jam opinion down your throat as fact.
sometimes it to the point where I have to skip over certain people's posts to avoid rolling my eyes and shaking my head.
This is particularly the case when opinion is presented as "This is the way everyone does it". When, in FACT, it more commonly is NOT.
.....and I agree, it's off-putting to have to swallow the mentality of opinion being presented as FACT. Sometimes people try to jam opinion down your throat as fact.
sometimes it to the point where I have to skip over certain people's posts to avoid rolling my eyes and shaking my head.
This is particularly the case when opinion is presented as "This is the way everyone does it". When, in FACT, it more commonly is NOT.
OP
OP
cool beans
Senior Member
The marinas name is Vinings Landing in Norfolk, about as close to a Yachtsman Marina as you'll find around here. Nice upgrade from where I'm at. Start in October.
This will be interesting to see if the nicer marina can make up for what I was looking for in a larger boat. I'm going to run this personal experiment over the winter and pick up the search again in the spring. Lots to think about.
Yalls wealth of knowledge and experience is very helpful! Send me your address and I'll mail you a beer
This will be interesting to see if the nicer marina can make up for what I was looking for in a larger boat. I'm going to run this personal experiment over the winter and pick up the search again in the spring. Lots to think about.
Yalls wealth of knowledge and experience is very helpful! Send me your address and I'll mail you a beer
MYTraveler
Guru
What amenities do "yachtsmen" marinas offer? The nicest I have been to are associated with a high-end hotel, but we don't take advantage of the amenities, for the most part. Are we missing out on something?
Wifey B: Great indoor pools, spas, tennis courts? Not saying this one, just the fancy ones you're talking about.
The marinas name is Vinings Landing in Norfolk, about as close to a Yachtsman Marina as you'll find around here. Nice upgrade from where I'm at. Start in October.
This will be interesting to see if the nicer marina can make up for what I was looking for in a larger boat. I'm going to run this personal experiment over the winter and pick up the search again in the spring. Lots to think about.
Yalls wealth of knowledge and experience is very helpful! Send me your address and I'll mail you a beer
Wifey B: Hope it really works for you. Very mixed reviews. I haven't been there. We've mostly ended up in Portsmouth or Hampton and Waterside in Norfolk.
OP
OP
cool beans
Senior Member
Compared to what? Compared to where I'm at now, I'd consider it a yachtsmen marina. I've seen better in other places though (trying to stay close to work, limited choice).
Current marina offers fixed docks with micro finger piers that regularly flood, gravel/shell parking, basically unusable shower. . .water until he turns it off in the winter. This is also the fishing boat unloading site.
Where I'm moving has full length floating docks, wifi, cable, paved parking, nice shower house, laundry, pool. Not nearly as bad as the couple recent reviews I've seen online would indicate.
I guess it is all a matter of perspective :lol:
B&B, I agree the nicest marinas I've ever seen are in p-town and and hampton. I work in Hilltop near the beach and can't make the drive
B&B, I agree the nicest marinas I've ever seen are in p-town and and hampton. I work in Hilltop near the beach and can't make the drive
Convenience offsets a lot.
healhustler
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Yalls wealth of knowledge and experience is very helpful! Send me your address and I'll mail you a beer
Easy fix, Beans. Just send your gift beers to:
Larry's Gift Beer Distribution Co.
Longboat Key, FL 34228
You can trust me to make sure that all worthy thread contributors receive their goods. Let's see now, that's 57 posts so far....., yeah, a couple of cases should do it!
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