How Many Anchors?

Hi Ted

Thanks I'll check it out, looks very interesting.

ksanders said:

I doubt it...

So far from all the posts here about carrying redundant anchor's I've not read even a single post about someone that actually had to deploy their redundant anchor.

Since I've never needed mine, I wonder about the wisdom of even carrying it.

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No need to wear a seatbelt based on that reasoning.

I never needed to relieve my Delta of duty either in hundreds of nights at anchor in all sorts of weather and bottom conditions. Still liked having the big Danforth rugged and ready to go.

sunchaser said:

Has anyone had a Super Max, Ultra, Rocna or Excel that failed to grab and you had to pull it in and drop your "more suitable" spare? Me, never.

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Nope. My Super Sarca is so reliable, and retrievable from almost any situation thanks to the trip slot, my back-up, (Danforth I think), has never seen the light of day. But it's down in the lazaret somewhere. I'm sure I saw it several years ago.

4 are on there own anchor lines ready at an instant.

2 bow, 60H Danforth ,60 CQR,, 1 stern.20H Danforth

A 12H is carried on the foredeck for bridge delays.

2 more are stored with lines that can be attached.

Since we O nite with a bow anchor and a stern set , led to the bow, 2 anchors are always in use.

I prefer to anchor in one spot , not swing in a 200-500ft circle, in tidal areas.

Nomad Willy said:

Larry,
What's your experience with the Manson Ray (Claw) anchor?
I don't ever remember it mentioned on this forum. For others (not famillar w the Ray) it's very unique in that it's made very differently. I've only seen one anchor test involving the Ray. A very small test (three anchors) in South America. Being very expensive few buy it and little is commonly known. So what does one get w the Ray?

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At risk of thread creep, let me say that I am no anchor expert. All I know is that in years of anchoring out in the Great Lakes and on the Great Loop, I have not experienced a failure to hold.

This may be the article you saw? http://www.manson-marine.co.nz/Anchor%20Tests/Practical%20Sailor%20Large%20Anchor%20Tests.pdf

I have three. A 55 lb Rocna on the pulpit, a big Fortress secondary anchor stowed in the anchor locker, and a cheapo WalMart Danforth style that I use as a stern anchor sometimes.

Minimum of 2 and as stated different types. I use a 35 Danforth and a 44 Delta.
When we cruised all summer in Canada, I had a third, a 22 Danforth, available to use as a stern anchor.

Re post # 35
Larry that is the test I refer to.
I'm not sure about the scale issue. Marin went on and on about that in the past but I think it was an excuse to put down the Bruce anchor. The Bruce offended him and he was bent on getting even.
I considered getting a Ray myself but started experimenting w the Supreme instead.
Thanks for your resopnse.

All

Im not at all surprised that the posters here have mostly never had a need for their back up anchor as from what I can tell, after being a lurker for many years, most are well skilled in boating and anchoring and would anchor properly and in correct places.

However sometimes circumstances are beyond the captains control. One night I was anchored in the Bahamas within 300 yards of the freight dock and well out of the channel to the dock. Shortly after midnight the freight boat leaves the dock and I knew it when my boat starts changing direction and moving. Yep, you guessed correctly the boats keel or prop hooked my anchor line. I yelled and called on the radio to no avail but soon my boat came loose and I pulled in a cut anchor line, over went the secondary anchor and we spent the night. Next day we looked for six hours for my anchor in clear Bahamian water six feet deep to no avail.

Not only did I loose the anchor but the anchor line I hauled back into the boat was black with the tar they use to coat the boats bottom. Since then I always have a minimum of two anchors.

Actually Pigtug, your question brings up a broader subject of redundancy. Since you are embarking on a relatively serious cruise, it would be good to think about having redundancy (even at a reduced performance) for every system.

Ask yourself "what do I do when the XXX breaks?" If you can't carry a spare/backup then what is your contingency plan?

When I was first preparing for going into risk countries, my security consultant taught me about preparing a book of action plans. Same thing works for boats. Can you and your wife answer these questions without thinking:
1) What are the steps you follow if you hear someone enter your boat/house at night? - scream, hide in the closet, start blasting away with your revolver.....
2) What are the steps to follow if one of you suffers a major medical emergency? - triage, immediate first aid, CPR, mobile phone, VHF radio, etc.

There's a lot to think about. Pardon the thread drift, but I still think that your question about backup anchors just naturally segues into redundancy and backup plans. Long distance sailors/cruisers are some of the most prepared persons around and there's a lot of knowledge to be gained from our fellow posters.

Two. A Danforth hanging from the bow pulpit and then a (too small) Fortress in one of the swim step lockers as a spare. That reminds me, if I ever need that spare it's going to be completely inadequate, I might as well tie a cinderblock to a rope and toss it over. What I really ought to do is move the bow pulpit Danforth (26 lb for a 14 ton, 37-footer) to the locker as the spare and get a new, bigger one for the bow pulpit. I see that rating for that 26-pounder goes to 40 feet, but it looks pitifully too small for a boat our size. Of course for last summer's Newport to Albany run we never used the anchor a single time but all it takes is one engine failure and you start sweating those waves crashing on the lee shore.

Im not at all surprised that the posters here have mostly never had a need for their back up anchor as from what I can tell, after being a lurker for many years, most are well skilled in boating and anchoring and would anchor properly and in correct places.

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My 2nd anchor has allowed me to sleep and feel safe many times, has allowed me to choose a proper anchor on several occasions (bottom change from mud to weeds) but absolutely saved certain destruction on one occasion.
Saved a friend from probable destruction on one occasion which is why I initially went to 2 anchors.

jleonard said:

My 2nd anchor has allowed me to sleep and feel safe many times, has allowed me to choose a proper anchor on several occasions (bottom change from mud to weeds) but absolutely saved certain destruction on one occasion.
Saved a friend from probable destruction on one occasion which is why I initially went to 2 anchors.

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Is that one event? What was the one you changed from, and what was the one you changed to? What was the substrate, and what were the other circumstances?

-Chris

To me, a spare or "backup" anchor is of minimal use unless you can deploy it an instant. As others here have illustrated, there are many things that can happen beyond the main not setting. And in many if not all of those circumstances, time is of the essence, and there is likely a lot of other things hitting the fan at the same time.

I've never had an anchor fail to hold but experienced numerous failures to set.

I bought the early XYZ anchor (13lbs) and failed to get it to set .. more often than not. About 10 years ago I was in north Queen Charlotte Strait and heard a 50knot gale forecast. Knew a good anchorage (Allison Harbour) and went there. Took several attempts to get it set but rode out the day and a half gale. Lots of almost violent sailing but no dragging.
In Rocky Pass in SE AK we anchored in a small cove near a river outlet as our prefered anchorage was chocked w crab trap floats. Tried to set a 25lb Forfjord and it just dragged over the bottom. Tried the old XYZ and dragged easily along like it was a SS plate bottom. Third attempt was w the anchor that came w the boat in 74 .. a 13lb Danforth. Hooked right up and held backing down.
Not long ago we were in Fisherman Bay on Lopez Is in WA anchoring. Was a shallow grassy bottom. Put out my Supreme (w the RB cut off) .. didn't set. It was blowing 20 and cool so I put out my modified. XYZ. It wouldn't set either. Then I discovered the grass on the bottom. Put out the 13lb Dan and it didn't see the weed as a problem. Hooked right up.
There's been other similar times so now you get an idea why I kike that little Dan.

But I've never been unable to get one of my anchors to set .... and hold.
So my personal experence has been fine holding and poor setting. And few of the setting failures have been due to my experiments. It may be worth noting though that the little anchor that has never failed to do everything perfect is unmodified.

Eric

Great story, certainly the anchoring gods have blessed that little Danforth, don't ever get rid of it. ����

HiDHo said:

Three, Fortress FX-23, Rocna Vulcan 44 lb and a Northhill 20-R ( 44 lbs ) storm anchor in the forward pilothouse locker.

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Interesting set up. Two anchors and one windlass that can operate either anchor. Up is one direction for the left and up is the other direction for the right anchor.

Picture of two anchor one windlass set up

Pgitug. Aboard Seaweed I have two anchors. On the bow is a 33 pound Rocna on 150' of 1/4" G4 chain. At the transom I have a 16 pound HydroBubble on 16' of chain and 60' of 1/2" three strand.

My "problem" is deploying and retrieving the Stop Anchor. With my swim platform it's a raise over the side. I have two lockers (outbound) that are combination seats and storage areas. Frankly pulling in the small anchor is not easy. It is awkward.

She stops the boat VERY well and that's critical for safety. I don't have either a good way to deploy nor retrieve the anchor. I'm still pondering that issue. So far I have no solution.

Your transom looks similar. I'm not sure if you have built in seats aft or not. My "good idea" to add the second locker has turned out to be not quite as great as I had hoped. The anchor is the "didn't think of that" item. On the other hand I now have a place to stow the anchor so...

Everything has a consequence. For you, I would definitely have two anchors and possibly a third. I'm considering a Very small lunch hook for those midday snacks I enjoy Anchoring from the transom gives me a wonderful breeze aft in my galley.

ksanders said:

I doubt it...

So far from all the posts here about carrying redundant anchor's I've not read even a single post about someone that actually had to deploy their redundant anchor.

Since I've never needed mine, I wonder about the wisdom of even carrying it.

Click to expand...

Twice in the last eight years we have been with boats that lost their main anchor and they did not have a backup. Once it would have been really bad because we were in the Spanish Virgins and it would not have been possible to get to a marina before dark. One was a nylon rode that parted. The other was a drop into the deep while traveling of a chain rode and the anchor.

In both cases substitute anchors were supplied by others.


We also assisted in the rescue of a boat dragging where the nylon rode had parted late in the evening. There was a second anchor on board but it was not easily launchable so it took some time before the boat was settled back at anchor. Again a nylon road parted. At 11 pm after a few drinks one does not want to dive to recover an anchor.

ranger42c said:

Is that one event? What was the one you changed from, and what was the one you changed to? What was the substrate, and what were the other circumstances?

-Chris

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In my friend's case, who is absolutely the best boater I know, he was running thru Lord's passage (all rocks) and picked up a submerged lobster buoy that actually stuck on one prop blade. He could not make any headway after that.
His first attempt at anchoring was not successful so he deployed number 2 which was at the ready and held. That held and he then had to snorkel (expert diver) and remove the buoy. (both were Danforths)

In my case it was a new to me boat on my delivery trip and I lost power running against the current in the Harlem River. The anchor that was on the boat (33 Delta) would not set in the riverbed. Luckily I had a jury rigged number 2 anchor ready (22 Danforth) and it immediately grabbed and held. If it failed I would have hit the bridge abutment.

Those 2 incidents alone are why I am a 2 anchor fan. YMMV

Nomad Willy said:

I've never had an anchor fail to hold but experienced numerous failures to set.

I bought the early XYZ anchor (13lbs) and failed to get it to set .. more often than not. About 10 years ago I was in north Queen Charlotte Strait and heard a 50knot gale forecast. Knew a good anchorage (Allison Harbour) and went there. Took several attempts to get it set but rode out the day and a half gale. Lots of almost violent sailing but no dragging.
In Rocky Pass in SE AK we anchored in a small cove near a river outlet as our prefered anchorage was chocked w crab trap floats. Tried to set a 25lb Forfjord and it just dragged over the bottom. Tried the old XYZ and dragged easily along like it was a SS plate bottom. Third attempt was w the anchor that came w the boat in 74 .. a 13lb Danforth. Hooked right up and held backing down.
Not long ago we were in Fisherman Bay on Lopez Is in WA anchoring. Was a shallow grassy bottom. Put out my Supreme (w the RB cut off) .. didn't set. It was blowing 20 and cool so I put out my modified. XYZ. It wouldn't set either. Then I discovered the grass on the bottom. Put out the 13lb Dan and it didn't see the weed as a problem. Hooked right up.
There's been other similar times so now you get an idea why I kike that little Dan.

But I've never been unable to get one of my anchors to set .... and hold.
So my personal experence has been fine holding and poor setting. And few of the setting failures have been due to my experiments. It may be worth noting though that the little anchor that has never failed to do everything perfect is unmodified.

Click to expand...

A contrarian idea, meant only for the sake of examination: if anchors X and Y and Z often/sometimes/occasionally fail to set...

Maybe the problem is that anchors X and Y and Z -- modified or not -- aren't the right anchors to have on board, in your area.

We have had anchors either fail to set, or more often, take a bit more work to set. An older Danforth in a seabed covered with leaves comes to mind... and sometimes a Delta in soup.

But eventually we've gravitated towards anchors that have never failed to set and have never* (well, except once) failed to hold. FWIW, none of those were an X or a Y or a Z, with our without modifications. A Delta we had once would fall into this category, though likely not exactly its fault since we were in known soupy bottom, with 8 boats rafted up to us, and with a current.


(* Edit: this, of course, is subject to life, hopefully continuing over time. Stuff happens, so I recognize just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't.)

We DID have the one instance where one of our current anchor choices "failed". That was Fortress FX-23 -- slightly small, for our boat, since replaced with bigger -- on board because we had brought it over from our previous smaller boat, it was better than the original anchor that came with this boat, and we hadn't gotten around to upgrading yet.

It had been lightly set on short scope (with intention to improve that after Happy Hour). A sudden and unpredicted Summer squall came up before Happy Hour ended, high winds rotated the boat 360° on a tight rode over a period of about 2 minutes... and we started to move slightly. This was just a dinner cruise, we were only about 1 mile away from our marina, and weather threatened to be significantly soggy soon... so I didn't wait to see if the anchor would reset or not, just pulled it and motored home. I've not ever held that against the Fortress; I just recognize it was small for the job and I hadn't really set it correctly anyway... and that whole high wind/360° thing was semi-extraordinary in the very well protected anchorage we were in at the time.

Anyway, back to the contrarian thing: maybe your suite of 14 or 19 or whatever anchors still doesn't have one that will work in your area right out of the box. Rather than continuing the fight with those bubbas, maybe it's just time to move on to other products that might work better for you.

-Chris

jleonard said:

Those 2 incidents alone are why I am a 2 anchor fan. YMMV

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Thanks for additional detail, good info.

I like at least 2 as well.



-Chris

Chris many have said so and PeterB said that in so many words many times.

First of all my XYZ is not three anchors. It's a brand (xyzanchors.com) and I have one. Had another, different, earlier XYZ anchor. The first XYZ is the one that only set half the time. But it did hold our boat in a gale. When the second gale came along I had a later model XYZ that had set well (w two different toes) so I used it in that gale too. Still I'll set my XYZ if a gale is forecast. If they set they hold. And the later model has only failed to set once .. on grass w the very different 4" wide toe.

The trend from the begining was to find a 13-18lb anchor that was easy to hand pull as the boat had no winch at all. I now have and have had a capstan for some time but little capacity to handle chain. My first capstan motor went TU and I had the opportunity to install a winch w a gypsy or another capstan. I almost went w the gypsy but got a new capstan for very little money so I got it. Didn't want the rode stink back that we had w our previous boat (Albin 25) and Willy being a dry boat didn't want to changer her to wet w extra weight on the bow.

Chris,
So my anchoring was/became an on going experiment. Sorta.

I briefly bought into the "size matters" thinking and got a 33lb Claw. I found I could easily lift the very short chain and 33lb Claw easily up onto the bow roller by hand. But the 33 Claw hasn't been wet.

Then I went back to experimenting again and cut the RB off my 15lb Supreme. I observed how Manson w the Boss and Rocna w the Vulcan designed/developed a new anchor w/o the roll bar. I didn't like the big and heavy and dragy and long shank so I developed my own RB less anchor by adding a sorta fence like structure to the top of the shank that IMO would do the job of keeping the anchor on it's side (in setting position) or right side up. It works. Now (theoretically) it will penetrate much better and probably hold better too. Time will tell. For now it's my primary and it will continue as such until it fails in a reasonable scenario.

And so you see mostly why I have been experimenting. But I always have two or more backup anchors ready if the ongoing experiment should fail.


Picture #1 is the standard XYZ Extreme anchor as it was when I received it.
Pic #2 is the XYZ w my new wide chisel toe. Notice that the toe increased the area of the fluke fwd and this should increase holding power especially at short scope. It's made out of 1/4" mild steel and didn't bend in the 50 knot gale.
Pic #3 is the present configuration of my Manson Supreme. I call it the "Razorback Supreme". I cleaned up the RB attach points.
Pic #4 shows how aggressively the XYZ fluke is presented to the bottom when the anchor is on it's side. It may assume this position setting at long scope.
Pic #5 is the original marketed XYZ .. as far as I know.

We have heard from so many that setting an anchor is part art form. Different techniques for different skippers, boats and anchors.

If I tried to set my old delta, like my manson and soon to be fortress...I bet I wouldnt have consistent results.

Two observations:
1. NW. You have too much time on your hands welding on various anchors. I envy your talent.

2. Chris you should be a comedian. Funny ****.

Thanks.

Nomad Willy said:

Chris many have said so and PeterB said that in so many words many times.

First of all my XYZ is not three anchors. It's a brand (xyzanchors.com) and I have one.

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I know that, Eric. I was just having furn with using X and Y and Z as variable names for all the various anchors you have.

I think you have 14 anchors just now, yes? I could have started at A and worked myself all the way down to N...

Nomad Willy said:

Chris,
So my anchoring was/became an on going experiment. Sorta.

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Looks to me like you enjoy the experimenting, more than you have a need to know the final answer, and I think that can be commendable.


Not me, when it might not be necessary. I just want to solve the problem, and if a ready-made off-the-shelf product will do that -- within the other constraints an issue like this might include -- great. One product fails, spin it off, get a different one.


That too is more experimentation than I'd prefer, but given access to Internet scuttlebutt, some of which occasionally turns out to be slightly useful, it didn't take much reading for me to home in on solutions that work (for us, here) without much further ado.


My take on your experiments is that, aside from the fun you're probably having pondering on the issue, you could have solved it all by now with some additional shopping. Just harkening back to my earlier "contrarian" idea, there. OTOH, if the playtime along the way is more important than the end goal... you're certainly demonstrating one way to go about it.

Bigsfish said:

2. Chris you should be a comedian. Funny ****.

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Sometimes I try to get on a roll... Doesn't usually work out, during a stand-up event on stage, though...





-Chris

Let me just you never can have too many when your last one was just lost. LOL

Bay Pelican said:

Twice in the last eight years we have been with boats that lost their main anchor and they did not have a backup. Once it would have been really bad because we were in the Spanish Virgins and it would not have been possible to get to a marina before dark. One was a nylon rode that parted. The other was a drop into the deep while traveling of a chain rode and the anchor.

In both cases substitute anchors were supplied by others.


We also assisted in the rescue of a boat dragging where the nylon rode had parted late in the evening. There was a second anchor on board but it was not easily launchable so it took some time before the boat was settled back at anchor. Again a nylon road parted. At 11 pm after a few drinks one does not want to dive to recover an anchor.

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Marty am I reading this right - one anchor lost due to no bitter end final attachment and rope rodes parting? If so a properly affixed all chain rode would have prevented both problems.