Taiwan vs China build quality

There has been more than one discussion on the build quality of the Taiwan built boats in the early 80's... The now familiar issues with these boats have been revealed in the passage of time.

Now with many builders in Mainland China it brings to question what issues will come to light in the next 25 years. I know that OA produced some Altus branded boats in China that weren't up to their standards and had to cease production until they could bring the mainland build quality up to their standards... I also know that OA only builds their larger boats in Taiwan now...

I guess time will tell but I would think that quantity vs quality mindset may show up in the future..

I think it's a potentially serious issue. In my experience, if they already know how to do something correctly/well, they will do a great job. Beyond that, it's a total crap shoot. So manufacturing quality becomes all about the level of supervision and training exercised by whoever is commissioning the build, and by that I mean OA, or Nordhavn, or Grand Banks, or whoever. And it doesn't matter if you are building boats, electronics, or pipe fittings.

But in fairness, people aren't born knowing how to build boats or electronics or whatever. It's accumulated knowledge over a long period of time.

And on the other hand, at the risk of being politically incorrect, there is a cultural element to it as well. I definitely don't see the inherent obsession over quality that you see in Japan, for example. So all the more need for involved oversight.

Can't wait to buy a boat from folks that sell wallboard that falls apart and powdered baby milk formula that kills.

China, is probably progressing along the stand alone quality scale just like Japan, Korea and Taiwan did in the 60s through the 90s. They start out as the low cost and low quality producer. Then they see that just making something cheap won't really advance their economy, so they step up their game.


That being said, with enough supervision, a low cost, low quality country can turn out really good quality stuff such as the Apple products made in China today.


Grand Banks and Nordhavn do that and produce high quality boats. But any boat designed, built and marketed by the Chinese is probably not going to meet the same standard. Some day, probably yes. But some other country will take on the low cost producer status then.


The point of all of the foregoing BS is that production supervision makes all the difference in China today whether it is electronics or boats.


David


David

djmarchand said:

China, is probably progressing along the stand alone quality scale just like Japan, Korea and Taiwan did in the 60s through the 90s. They start out as the low cost and low quality producer. Then they see that just making something cheap won't really advance their economy, so they step up their game.


That being said, with enough supervision, a low cost, low quality country can turn out really good quality stuff such as the Apple products made in China today.


Grand Banks and Nordhavn do that and produce high quality boats. But any boat designed, built and marketed by the Chinese is probably not going to meet the same standard. Some day, probably yes. But some other country will take on the low cost producer status then.


The point of all of the foregoing BS is that production supervision makes all the difference in China today whether it is electronics or boats.


David


David

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Grand Banks is not built in China. Built in Malaysia. (and Palm Beach in Australia).

There are well built boats from China and poorly built, just as Taiwan and all other boat building countries. It all comes back to a builder training and implementing an effective quality program. I think many boat companies go from one yard to another based on cost and on who has available production. Those will generally end up with issues. However, those with their own yards or a captive relationship can generally achieve quality.

If I was considering a Chinese built boat, I'd want to know what yard, what the relationship was, and how long it had been in effect. If the answer is "we changed yards last year," I'm running. If it is, "we've used one yard for 15 years and they only build for us" then I'll check further.

The extreme example is Cheoy Lee, run by the same family since the 1870's. Their current main facility was opened in 1999. The majority of their pleasurecraft are built for the US market.

Anyone ever hear of Broward yachts?

Nation of origin is not the same as quality assurance.

CPseudonym said:

Anyone ever hear of Broward yachts?

Nation of origin is not the same as quality assurance.

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Ok, I'll ask...
What happened to Broward?
I recognize the name but otherwise know nothing.
?
Bruce

Early on the Asian built boats had a lot of problems, but those issues are largely resolved. Our Helmsman 38 was built in mainland China. We have lived aboard since new. Living aboard does put more wear and tear on the boat. We have had no build quality issues.

There are some American builders who build crap too. As others have said, it depends upon the builders yard. Same in the US, Europe and in China.

Bruce B said:

Ok, I'll ask...
What happened to Broward?
I recognize the name but otherwise know nothing.
?
Bruce

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Went by the wayside. Had a few quality issues. More recently, look at the dismal quality of the US built Bertram's over the last 10-15 years.

Most countries have good and bad builders. It's also easy to set up a boat brand and then if you ever get an order get them built somewhere. That's a quick way to major quality problems.

You have people like OA who have built very good boats but right now don't seem to be able to decide where they are building. They took the 120 to Christensen. We see how that worked out. Now they have someone setting up a Merritt Island factory to build smaller boats for them. Who wants the first boats out of a new factory, run by new people?

Only country I can't name a lousy builder from is the Netherlands, and I'm sure there is one, I just don't know it.

Now the bad US builders have largely gone by the wayside. I would think Northern wins the prize as biggest disaster on the way out.

CPseudonym said:

Anyone ever hear of Broward yachts?

Nation of origin is not the same as quality assurance.

Click to expand...

Having run several Browards I have to say they are not as bad as they are made out to be.

BandB said:

Went by the wayside. Had a few quality issues. More recently, look at the dismal quality of the US built Bertram's over the last 10-15 years.

Most countries have good and bad builders. It's also easy to set up a boat brand and then if you ever get an order get them built somewhere. That's a quick way to major quality problems.

You have people like OA who have built very good boats but right now don't seem to be able to decide where they are building. They took the 120 to Christensen. We see how that worked out. Now they have someone setting up a Merritt Island factory to build smaller boats for them. Who wants the first boats out of a new factory, run by new people?

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Did they ever sell that 120'? I lost track.

Capt.Bill11 said:

Did they ever sell that 120'? I lost track.

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I'm not sure whatever became of the 120's, if any were sold, how many were built, where they were taken to be finished, how much OA lost on the whole deal, but I believe it was quite a few millions of dollars.

Everyone lost except one man. Odd how that seems to be a repeating pattern for those who go into business with him or let him into their businesses.

Capt.Bill11 said:

Having run several Browards I have to say they are not as bad as they are made out to be.

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No disagreement here. Conversely not all China builds will be crap as some would wish to believe. Point again being, nation of origin is not the same as quality assurance.

Let's try some other brands, Bayliner or Sea Ray, which is better/worse? Two brands I like btw.

Face it, perception is reality regardless of if its true or not.

CPseudonym said:

No disagreement here. Conversely not all China builds will be crap as some would wish to believe. Point again being, nation of origin is not the same as quality assurance.

Let's try some other brands, Bayliner or Sea Ray, which is better/worse? Two brands I like btw.

Face it, perception is reality regardless of if its true or not.

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I have to admit, I have always considered Bayliner's to be "less than good quality". Now, I have no experience with Bayliner other than glancing at a poorly maintained runabout 30 years ago. In other words, I have no basis to back up that opinion! Same with Sea Ray... I know nothing about the boats. Sometimes I am amazed at my own bias!
Guess I will go visit the companies web sites to see what they are actually building.
Bruce

It is amazing how dock talk will keep the bad taste in your mouth long after a bad experience. I had bad service on Volvo and now anything with Volvo engines is a deal-breaker for me. Samsung has recently earned a place on my **** list for their designs and lack of customer support. I have gone from ordering Samsung products exclusively, to never again... it seems that they go out of their way to NOT support their customers.

Stu

I also had a major problem with Volvo,and would NEVER consider another Volvo product of any kind.

stubones99 said:

It is amazing how dock talk will keep the bad taste in your mouth long after a bad experience. I had bad service on Volvo and now anything with Volvo engines is a deal-breaker for me. Samsung has recently earned a place on my **** list for their designs and lack of customer support. I have gone from ordering Samsung products exclusively, to never again... it seems that they go out of their way to NOT support their customers.

Stu

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I will allow for a mistake or screw up. I'll even allow for a less than perfect service experience once or maybe twice. At some point, I am simply gone...
This is the way of the world we live in. I vote with my dollars!
Bruce

This wasn't meant to be brand specific, but rather looking 10 to 20 years down the road will the boats built in mainland China suffer maladies similar to the boats built in Taiwan in the early 80s... Or perhaps the problems that exist in the taiwan built boats are not due to construction but rather lack of maintenance by the owner(s).... I personally suspect it's a combination of the two... Some yards have worse practices and the owners of these boats have to work harder to keep the boats up....

anyone have an opinion on the selenes?I know they had some build in the lates nineties,early 2000's,but seemed to have improved,as I am hearing less build issues lately.Anyone want to chime in with more info? thanks

Should have read build issues,sorry

I think most responses are saying the same thing - it depends more on the builder than where the yard is located. If a naive builder thinks they can send some drawings and specs to a builder and get back a quality boat, they will likely be the next crappy builder we are all talking about. If they closely oversee the project, ensure quality, train people, and inspect every step of the way, they will probably get good boats.

I don't think it's any different from when the fad in software development was to send specs to India and have a thousand programmers work on it for 2 cents an hour. The results were crap. It happens all the time when people who don't really understand a business make decision based on man-hours and loaded labor rates and other things in a spreadsheet. It's the MBA-syndrome.

FF said:

Can't wait to buy a boat from folks that sell wallboard that falls apart and powdered baby milk formula that kills.

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And construction and industrial materials certified asbestos free which contain asbestos. And exterior building panels which burn, recreating the towering inferno.

Ka_sea_ta said:

This wasn't meant to be brand specific, but rather looking 10 to 20 years down the road will the boats built in mainland China suffer maladies similar to the boats built in Taiwan in the early 80s... Or perhaps the problems that exist in the taiwan built boats are not due to construction but rather lack of maintenance by the owner(s).... I personally suspect it's a combination of the two... Some yards have worse practices and the owners of these boats have to work harder to keep the boats up....

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At some point, constant maintenance through bad design is not the fault of the owner...you get weary both in energy and checkbook.

Albins supposedly had a good reputation...but after a near total rebuild I would have to say that any owner used to a half way decent boat would give up maintaining a boat designed to fail.

Did some owners keep theirs pristine?

Probably...but compared to a well built boat, they either kept it in a shed out of the sun and rain or worked on it more than used it.

I wonder if any of these boat builders will come back to the U.S? I don't know much about building boats overseas, but some consumer product lines, and high tech products are returning due to QC issues, rising labor costs, etc. We are helping to create a new middle class in Asia, and their appetite for the finer things in life, and better wages is increasing. This global economy thing has been interesting.

Fletcher500 said:

I wonder if any of these boat builders will come back to the U.S? I don't know much about building boats overseas, but some consumer product lines, and high tech products are returning due to QC issues, rising labor costs, etc. We are helping to create a new middle class in Asia, and their appetite for the finer things in life, and better wages is increasing. This global economy thing has been interesting.

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You say "come back to the U.S." but the builders in Asia were really never in the US, even though for many the US was their biggest sales region. Now, Ocean Alexander is still working on having some manufacturing in the US, not owned directly by them, but building for them.

As to whether there will be more builders to start in the US, not many new boat brands coming along. Most of the builders have been in the business for years, even decades. I think building in the US could make a lot of sense, but I don't think it warrants shutting down successful factories elsewhere to move here. There have been several US builders to stop building, at least to stop building recreational boats. That would include Northern, Christensen (still open in a small way), Trinity (doing commercial work), and Burger (doing commercial work). Bertram did move from the US to Italy but that was only because Ferretti sold it to another Italian company. Meanwhile there are some US builders exporting quite a few boats. Hatteras has a large percentage of foreign sales. Westport sells internationally. Viking also. All the SF builders along the east coast export heavily. Then you go to the basics. Sea Ray has a huge presence around the world and the other small boat builders export as well.

I just don't see new builders starting in the US or elsewhere. I can see possibly existing builders adding a new line.

I think it really comes down to who builds in China, or more specifically who owns the company, or the relationship between the brand name and builder. If the brand name simply decides to sub-contract to the lowest builder they get what they pay for.

Boats are not simple, nor are boats a production line items where thousands or, millions of identical products are built, and to build quality boats skilled workers from many trades are required.

Therefore to build quality boats, an experienced workforce is required, rigorous quality control, and these all take time to develop. Not that it cannot be done, but I think the effort required to so is often underestimated. And successful boat builders like Nordhavn have been doing it for decades, not years.

Just found out recently that nordhavn does not own,or have any financial interest in the actual building process.They are merely distributors of the line.Most are built by a company named Ta Shing,which is under contract for the builds with PAE,but is privately owned.

My 30 year old Nova sundeck was designed by naval architect Noren, and built in Taiwan. It is a well built hull with solid bottom and sides, with only the deck balsa-cored. How important is it to have a hull designed by a well known naval architect, rather than a committee of "suits" only concerned about profits?