Fletcher500
Guru
i have seen pre filled out contracts you can keep on board when push comes to shove. But as noted, if you are sinking, on fire, or whatever, it's best to just sign on the dotted line and hope for the best.
Towing lien
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captainneil
Member
Salvage Lien
The drama continues. When our boat took on water as described in previous posts, Tow Boat Us/George Bruton was called to St James Marina in Southport NC to assist with our boat we were under the impression the boat would have the water pumped out and we authorized the towing of our boat to Southport Marina so it could be hauled out for inspection and any damage repaired. We told them we had towing insurance through TowBoat US. We received a bill for $9500 from Mr Bruton and told us it was for salvage. We under no circumstance agreed to salvage. He said it didn't matter it was salvage. On top of that because Mr Bruton put it down as salvage our TowBoat US will not cover any of the towing. I was extremely distressed by the bill and said it was not the issue of paying any bill but we are talking less than 4 hours to pump out, tow the boat 5 miles to Southport and the marina lifting the boat out of the water. Mr Bruton after I threatened to pursue legal intervention immediately reduced the bill to $5250. We asked to have him send the new revised bill to us before we make payment. Payment is not an issue. He is refusing to send, or email the revised bill. He has now threatened to have the US Marshall seize the boat unless we pay the $5250 immediately otherwise he is putting the price back to $9500. We need a bill showing the revised amount. We are afraid if we pay him the $5250 without a copy of the revised amount he will then try to pursue the balance of the $9500. Suggestions??????
The drama continues. When our boat took on water as described in previous posts, Tow Boat Us/George Bruton was called to St James Marina in Southport NC to assist with our boat we were under the impression the boat would have the water pumped out and we authorized the towing of our boat to Southport Marina so it could be hauled out for inspection and any damage repaired. We told them we had towing insurance through TowBoat US. We received a bill for $9500 from Mr Bruton and told us it was for salvage. We under no circumstance agreed to salvage. He said it didn't matter it was salvage. On top of that because Mr Bruton put it down as salvage our TowBoat US will not cover any of the towing. I was extremely distressed by the bill and said it was not the issue of paying any bill but we are talking less than 4 hours to pump out, tow the boat 5 miles to Southport and the marina lifting the boat out of the water. Mr Bruton after I threatened to pursue legal intervention immediately reduced the bill to $5250. We asked to have him send the new revised bill to us before we make payment. Payment is not an issue. He is refusing to send, or email the revised bill. He has now threatened to have the US Marshall seize the boat unless we pay the $5250 immediately otherwise he is putting the price back to $9500. We need a bill showing the revised amount. We are afraid if we pay him the $5250 without a copy of the revised amount he will then try to pursue the balance of the $9500. Suggestions??????
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dhays
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I would simply take $5,250 cash with you to his office. While you are there, see if he will take less than the $5,250. When the price is negotiated, have him give you a receipt, signed by him, that not only shows the amount paid but that the bill has been paid in full.
If the boat was sinking and required pumps and a haul out to be saved, it was salvage not just a tow. Unfortunately, you and the contractor should have settled on a price at the time and signed a salvage agreement on site. BoatUS has a sample salvage contract where both parties agree to binding arbitration.
If the boat was sinking and required pumps and a haul out to be saved, it was salvage not just a tow. Unfortunately, you and the contractor should have settled on a price at the time and signed a salvage agreement on site. BoatUS has a sample salvage contract where both parties agree to binding arbitration.
Sailor of Fortune
Guru
Whatever you pay the salvage operator get a release of lien/Paid in full for salvage services rendered.
Any salvage contract that provides for arbitration has the potential to be fair for both sides. Keep greedy salvors and unscrupulous insurers in line.
I feel for the party that gets screwed by a towboat/salvage operator. It happens and we all know it happens. However, I have been on the other side of the coin and got blindsided by owners and their insurance companies.
The first time (I had a Sea-tow licensed area), a prominent yacht broker ran his 36' S/V on a rockpile that was exposed to ocean swells and a large tidal range. We responded and he told us the boat was working and grinding on her side and probably not going to be able to be salvaged in tact. I assumed the risks involved and would be paid nothing unless successful. Owner agreed and signed the SALVAGE form, he acknowledged that this was not simple towage and that we would be persuing a salvage claim IF we were SUCCESSFUL. NO CURE NO PAY. 9 hours later we (another boat was brought in) had her refloated and in the travel lift at his marina. I had the boat surveyed for damages and salved value ( what its worth minus cost of repairs). A comprehensive report with documentation and pictures was delivered with our claim for $14000 was presented to the insurance company, we were prepared to negotiate. Ocean underwriters of Cocoa Beach Fl was the insurer. They said not only was the bill outrageous but they were not acknowledging it was even salvage, they considered it routine towage. Owner had a lapse of memory as well, seems it was no big deal or that his boat was in any real danger. After months of back and forth with the insurance company, we agreed to have it arbitrated by a federal judge. When the dust settled, we were awarded almost $41,000 and the judge got rather angry with the insurance company for trying to bully a small salvor and deny a very valid claim. Pictures and documentation go a long way to head off memory loss after the fact.
Any salvage contract that provides for arbitration has the potential to be fair for both sides. Keep greedy salvors and unscrupulous insurers in line.
I feel for the party that gets screwed by a towboat/salvage operator. It happens and we all know it happens. However, I have been on the other side of the coin and got blindsided by owners and their insurance companies.
The first time (I had a Sea-tow licensed area), a prominent yacht broker ran his 36' S/V on a rockpile that was exposed to ocean swells and a large tidal range. We responded and he told us the boat was working and grinding on her side and probably not going to be able to be salvaged in tact. I assumed the risks involved and would be paid nothing unless successful. Owner agreed and signed the SALVAGE form, he acknowledged that this was not simple towage and that we would be persuing a salvage claim IF we were SUCCESSFUL. NO CURE NO PAY. 9 hours later we (another boat was brought in) had her refloated and in the travel lift at his marina. I had the boat surveyed for damages and salved value ( what its worth minus cost of repairs). A comprehensive report with documentation and pictures was delivered with our claim for $14000 was presented to the insurance company, we were prepared to negotiate. Ocean underwriters of Cocoa Beach Fl was the insurer. They said not only was the bill outrageous but they were not acknowledging it was even salvage, they considered it routine towage. Owner had a lapse of memory as well, seems it was no big deal or that his boat was in any real danger. After months of back and forth with the insurance company, we agreed to have it arbitrated by a federal judge. When the dust settled, we were awarded almost $41,000 and the judge got rather angry with the insurance company for trying to bully a small salvor and deny a very valid claim. Pictures and documentation go a long way to head off memory loss after the fact.
The $5250 isn't a reduced bill, but it's a settlement offer. You either accept or pay. If he was forced to go to court he'd go back to the $9500. You either get with him, pay $5250 and get a signed release from him as paid in full or face litigation on $9500.
You told him you had "towing insurance" per your words. Towboat US is not towing insurance, it's a membership. Do you not have tow coverage on your boat insurance policy? Is that the issue, that you don't have boat insurance?
This is clearly, by the definitions in the membership agreement you have with TowBoat US, salvage.
This is all very unfortunate and I do understand your frustration. However, the facts are what they are. As to whether the $9500 was a reasonable charge, I don't know what he did, but it could very well have been within industry norms or it could be high. Salvage is done on a much higher pricing scale than is towing. It requires more expertise, more equipment, often extra manpower, and entails greater potential problems and liability.
This is an area of regular confusion for several reasons. Most people don't read their agreements and policies and don't understand the difference between towing and salvage. Also, people keep referring to the towing membership in Towboat US as insurance. It is not. Making it even more confusing is the fact that Boat US does offer insurance so if one isn't careful they get the two confused.
Seatow is very similar in their membership and in addition to towing membership they offer insurance as Seainsure. I thought it might be interesting just so you know it's not Towboat US to quote the Seatow membership agreement.
Salvage Operations: Salvage operations, including, but not limited to, vessels abandoned, wrecked, beached, on fire, damaged by fire, taking on water, sinking, sunk, previously sunk, in the surf or surf line, or in any other state of peril, are not privileges of membership.
Your choices today are to settle for $5250, negotiate a different settlement, or face the burden of litigating the $9500 plus being responsible for additional costs such as the Marshals cost and storage and legal fees.
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Sailor of Fortune
Guru
It absolutely was in danger of sinking and smashing herself to death with resulting fuel spill on an exposed coast.
ranger58sb
Guru
I would think it'd be easy to think that something like the "Unlimited Gold" water towing option BoatUS offers -- for $$$ -- is "insurance." It's different from BoatUS membership, different from the limited towing benefit that comes with a basic BoatUS membership.
I don't see much difference in the "towing" wording between BoatUS and our insurance policy. (We have both.)
Not necessarily germane to the situation here (I can't seem to grasp the order of events, who did what to whom, who said what when, etc.), just an observation...
-Chris
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It might be easy to think that but everywhere they use the term, "Towing Membership" and they refer to the plan as "Unlimited Gold Towing Membership." They are very careful with their wording.
And it's good to have towing membership and to have insurance, as your insurance policy won't cover some of the things the towing membership does. I assume the issue is that the OP did not have any insurance or his insurance didn't cover towing or salvage.
It just makes the point once again that one must read carefully all agreements and policies.
psneeld
Guru
My eyes and head hurts reading this.
To the OP.....
I would stop dealing with the tower and contact just BOATUS insurance.
What has the adjuster said?
Or am I missing the fact that BoatUS is refusing the claim?
If they are, and you have a bill that discusses a pump used on your boat, I would be asking for supervisors at BoatUS till their ears bled.
Pump = salvage = hull insurance.
They try to get out of that and I would be hugely suprised.
You are on the hook for the salvage bill...but till I got the OK from the hull insurance for covering the salvage bill in full...I would be hesitant to lay the higher of the two. $5000 plus or minus is a really good price for pumping out a boat your size and towing it....
Paying that $5250 would keep your boat free in all likelyhood and the rest could be settled later with the savlor if not recognizing that as paid in full and whack in BoatUS for making this hard (if they have) when most of the time, the owner usually is barely involved.
I can't believe there is a disconnect between hull insurance and salvor towing, I don't think you are supposed to get jammed up there, BoatUS insurance must pay for towing in at least some cases as they paid Sea Tow as far as I know when we did their salvages.
I think there are some HUGE communication issues here...not sure where, but most salvages just like this go smoothly.
One question, did the towing company say up front this is salvage? If not, and you didn't sign a thing before the boat was moved....get a lawyer, you may owe nothing unless you get taken to court for time and materials...which will probably work out to the $5250...I will guess the rest was padding. And probably what the lawyer will charge too....
To the OP.....
I would stop dealing with the tower and contact just BOATUS insurance.
What has the adjuster said?
Or am I missing the fact that BoatUS is refusing the claim?
If they are, and you have a bill that discusses a pump used on your boat, I would be asking for supervisors at BoatUS till their ears bled.
Pump = salvage = hull insurance.
They try to get out of that and I would be hugely suprised.
You are on the hook for the salvage bill...but till I got the OK from the hull insurance for covering the salvage bill in full...I would be hesitant to lay the higher of the two. $5000 plus or minus is a really good price for pumping out a boat your size and towing it....
Paying that $5250 would keep your boat free in all likelyhood and the rest could be settled later with the savlor if not recognizing that as paid in full and whack in BoatUS for making this hard (if they have) when most of the time, the owner usually is barely involved.
I can't believe there is a disconnect between hull insurance and salvor towing, I don't think you are supposed to get jammed up there, BoatUS insurance must pay for towing in at least some cases as they paid Sea Tow as far as I know when we did their salvages.
I think there are some HUGE communication issues here...not sure where, but most salvages just like this go smoothly.
One question, did the towing company say up front this is salvage? If not, and you didn't sign a thing before the boat was moved....get a lawyer, you may owe nothing unless you get taken to court for time and materials...which will probably work out to the $5250...I will guess the rest was padding. And probably what the lawyer will charge too....
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psneeld
Guru
This is salvage...plain and simple as the boat was recently used and not absndoned.
If you need an expert witness, I am available....
I've been asking the question about insurance and not yet seen an answer. Maybe I overlooked it. Did he say he had insurance on his boat through Boat US? That's my question is does he have insurance and, if so, doesn't it include salvage?
O C Diver
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I thought he had indicated in one of the two threads, no hull / liability and he did have towing insurance. Believe his complaint centered around the tow company not filing the tow claim with BoatUS. As previously described, if this was salvage, then the tow portion wouldn't be covered by his towing membership.
Ted
psneeld
Guru
Oooops...reread post #1. Finally absorbed the one sentence.
Looks like no hull insurance....
Sorry for my I'll advised posts...
Uness you can absolutely prove you said "please dont salvage my boat"...
Run don't walk to that BoatUS office and pay the $5250. It's a bargain and legal is gonna only raise that already fair price.
If the salvor won't confirm the $5250 is payment in full...see what will, but for every extra dollar he wants, one or both of you will be spending time in court. How much is it worth to him and/or you to raise the stakes?
But you are definitely on the hook for at least something at this point.
Yes, I just reread that but the one he hasn't answered is liability or if there was any salvage insurance, but I'm assuming the answer is "no." Everytime I see people talking about no insurance, I think of cases like this as instead of $5500, it would be very easy to have a $50,000 bill. Just takes a small environmental issue.
dhays
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So true. A $15,000 boat can sink and leave the owner with a much greater liability than just the loss of the boat. Insurance is a good thing to have.
captainneil
Member
We've been told by Tow BoatUs even though we have unlimited gold towing that any tow that involves engine trouble, taking on water, grounding or fire will always be considered salvage and will not be paid for at all and will always result in a bill of many thousands of dollars. Can anyone tell me any situation that tow boat would pay for? When did this change? Fifteen years ago I had my 50' ketch towed w engines problems and it was totally paid for by towboat us. When did this change? Today I can see no circumstance that TowBoatUs towing would pay for anything.
O C Diver
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From their website:
Paid Services Include:
Payment for towing Member's disabled boat from the point of breakdown at sea to port of choice; at sea battery jumpstarts; delivery of fuel, engine fluids and basic engine parts to avoid a tow, subject to availability; soft ungrounding assistance; towing the disabled boat immediately after breakdown from a restricted use dock to the Member's home dock or repair facility.
Seems pretty clear to me. A disabled boat in no danger of sinking seems to be covered.
Ted
Fletcher500
Guru
Engine trouble, and I suppose you could put running out of fuel in that category ,represents about 90% of all tows. They tow boat operators would be making more money than a Wall Street Lawyer if that were the case.
psneeld
Guru
Engine trouble is certainly covered....UNLESS....the trouble is from flooding or fire.
Though I never encountered or heard of it.....if you ripped the bottom of your boat out.....and it was where integral fuel tanks were, it probably would be salvage, not running out of fuel.
Though I never encountered or heard of it.....if you ripped the bottom of your boat out.....and it was where integral fuel tanks were, it probably would be salvage, not running out of fuel.
Tom.B
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Look at it this way. TowBoat and SeaTow services are like AAA. They will help you when you break down on the side of the road. Maybe tow you to a shop or give you a jump, but if you are involved in a wreck, they aren't going to fix your car. You will have to call your car insurance for that.
I think part of the confusion is that the same guy that SALVAGED your boat was also a hired contractor for TowBoat. However, once the level of service he needed to provide to save your boat was beyond what TowBoat would cover, the TowBoat hat came off and he put on his general contractor cap. Perhaps he may not have made that clear enough.
Only you can decide how to deal with this because none of us were there and were not privy to what, exactly, was said. What is true though, is that from what you have described, your service was certainly a salvage that is not covered by TowBoat and that the guy that did the work wants his money.
Good luck... Keep us posted so we can all learn from it.
The information is all on their website, all quite clear. They do tow for engine trouble. They tow for soft grounding. They don't do anything for water, sinking, hard grounding, or fire. I don't know what you've been told by who but just read the site. You cannot blame TowBoat US for this. They are following their policy and their agreement. They tow many boats at no charge, every day. People have engine problems, run out of fuel, have soft groundings and they get towed. Yours is clearly by every tow company definition salvage. And nothing changed. It's the same policy basically as 15 years ago.
BruceK
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Interesting. Are there rules determining the amount a salvor can charge? I get the impression people in a salvage situation, desperate as they may be, see themselves unempowered in terms of making arrangements, a sort of: "Agree or Sink" situation.
Can the charge a salvor seeks to recover be taken to a tribunal to determine its reasonableness, or is "reasonableness" not a consideration?
In Equity Courts (colloquially called"The Whispering Jurisdiction"here for its gentle ways of proceeding) it was said the relief available varied with the length of the Equity Chancellors foot; in other words it was a highly subjective determination.
Is the determiner here the salvor, or are there rules?
Can the charge a salvor seeks to recover be taken to a tribunal to determine its reasonableness, or is "reasonableness" not a consideration?
In Equity Courts (colloquially called"The Whispering Jurisdiction"here for its gentle ways of proceeding) it was said the relief available varied with the length of the Equity Chancellors foot; in other words it was a highly subjective determination.
Is the determiner here the salvor, or are there rules?
No rules. Should agree in advance either on a fixed amount or on the hourly and mileage rates. However, in those situations most are just happy for salvage and don't get prices quoted.
You can take the salvor to court, unless you sign a contract agreeing to arbitration, and even then you sometimes can. The problem is that courts are a long process and until the point of a decision, if you don't pay, the salvor has the lien. That makes a more reasonable approach to pay and then to go to court after if you feel necessary.
The majority of salvage is done through insurance companies and they do have agreements with salvage companies and understandings on charges. They are experienced at handling it. They are also willing and ready to have salvage done as the alternative is a total loss plus salvage. Typically, if the salvage charge is no more than 10% of the value of the boat, they're happy.
Ski in NC
Technical Guru
Non lawyer here, but have been around a bunch of marine salvage cases. As I understand it, to claim salvage, there must be a peril.
If you have water in your bilge, and the pump does not work, but no further water is entering, there is no peril and thus no salvage. Otherwise any mechanic that fixes a failed pump could make such a claim. Does not matter if there is 100gal in bilge, or three ounces.
If the water is flooding in, TB puts pumps in and prevents a sinking, that is a salvage.
Whenever dealing with a potential salvage, try to get an agreement on the spot what the fee will be for the service. I did this with a slip tenant whose sailboat was blown up in the surf line on the beach. I run over on a skiff and TB and BUS were both there, not connected. Boat owner was freaking out and unable to negotiate. I acted as his agent. I skiff'd over to the two tow boats and a little bidding war ensued. Final bid was $1300, which I thought was fair. I told the winning bidder to proceed with getting the boat off the beach, and owner concurred on the radio. Boat was pulled off with no damage beyond a little rash. Owner paid the tow boat the agreed fee and no salvage claims were made, as far as I know.
If you have water in your bilge, and the pump does not work, but no further water is entering, there is no peril and thus no salvage. Otherwise any mechanic that fixes a failed pump could make such a claim. Does not matter if there is 100gal in bilge, or three ounces.
If the water is flooding in, TB puts pumps in and prevents a sinking, that is a salvage.
Whenever dealing with a potential salvage, try to get an agreement on the spot what the fee will be for the service. I did this with a slip tenant whose sailboat was blown up in the surf line on the beach. I run over on a skiff and TB and BUS were both there, not connected. Boat owner was freaking out and unable to negotiate. I acted as his agent. I skiff'd over to the two tow boats and a little bidding war ensued. Final bid was $1300, which I thought was fair. I told the winning bidder to proceed with getting the boat off the beach, and owner concurred on the radio. Boat was pulled off with no damage beyond a little rash. Owner paid the tow boat the agreed fee and no salvage claims were made, as far as I know.
Roger Long
Senior Member
I've got to throw in a kudo for TowboatUS here. I had a long tow a couple years ago. Simple tow, just loss of oil due to a seal leak.
A few days later, I got a call from the boat that towed me saying that I owed them $1700. I said, "What about that invoice I signed when you were along side with a big zero at the bottom?"
He said, "That's just what TowboatUS paid. It was a long tow and you own me the balance." I said I would only pay it if the TowboatUS mothership said I owed it.
"Well, ask them whatever you like. This is between you and me now, it has nothing to do with TowboatUS and I'll have the sheriff there in the morning to seize your boat and throw you off it while we sort it out."
I told TowboatUS what was going on. They slapped him up alongside the head and told him they would yank his franchise so fast his head wouldn't stop spinning for a week if he ever tried something like that again. They even sent me the emails.
I never heard anything more about it but I hope never to need a tow in the Solomons, MD area again.
A few days later, I got a call from the boat that towed me saying that I owed them $1700. I said, "What about that invoice I signed when you were along side with a big zero at the bottom?"
He said, "That's just what TowboatUS paid. It was a long tow and you own me the balance." I said I would only pay it if the TowboatUS mothership said I owed it.
"Well, ask them whatever you like. This is between you and me now, it has nothing to do with TowboatUS and I'll have the sheriff there in the morning to seize your boat and throw you off it while we sort it out."
I told TowboatUS what was going on. They slapped him up alongside the head and told him they would yank his franchise so fast his head wouldn't stop spinning for a week if he ever tried something like that again. They even sent me the emails.
I never heard anything more about it but I hope never to need a tow in the Solomons, MD area again.
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There are two different issues. You're talking about the procedure for making a salvage claim. That differs from salvage towing for an owner.
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