New head!

Fun times, putting in new Jabsco heads, one down one to go. Old vintage 'Gor' blimey Boy' or whatever they were called heads have lived well beyond their usefulness. Aft cabin first of course. Got another coming for fwd. Always more work than you plan for.

Nice looking install.

Thanks! In a perfect world I could have used the same studs to fasten to, but no such luck. I just broke off the old ones as they were glassed on the underside of the board, and then drilled for new SS bolts. Had to get a new supply hose, then it leaked the barb fitting, so getting the clamp in just the right place was critical, then the second clamp failed upon tightening!! Had one handy, used it. All said and done it worked and I have the second one on order, will be here Monday and I can do it all again. The hole in the back there is just over the inlet valve and a little garbage can fits right in there. What with one thing and another I still have not had the boat out but for one little afternoon cruise last week. Maybe before summer is over...

Old vintage 'Gor' blimey Boy' or whatever they were called heads have lived well beyond their usefulness.

Just curious...what make/model/approx age WERE they?

Tee hee! Old Par 59128, I guess they were called Brydon Boy toilets. Have no idea why, had to go look it up again. I figured Gor Blimey worked pretty well, which for those who don't know a little bit of cockney British is "God blind me". Probably oem on this '78 CHB of mine. The son of the previous owner who died some time ago, told me that apparently the old man didn't like folks using the heads so insisted everyone go before they left the dock and hold it till they got back,,, or use a bucket! No wonder the systems all need upgrade, they just sat around unused. They kinda sorta still worked but not well enough to call working heads.

Looks good! I'll be by in the morning, after my coffee, and give it a go.

Old Par 59128, I guess they were called Brydon Boy toilets. Have no idea why...

The Brydon Boy was a Canadian version of the Jabsco, built under a licensing agreement until Brydon went out of business in the early '80s. Jabsco supported it with a service kit until the early '90s. So they had to be original to your boat.

No wonder the systems all need upgrade, they just sat around unused. They kinda sorta still worked ...

After 40+ years, that means the pump piston still moved up and down, but that's all. No way could anything be left of the rubber seals, o-rings etc. on it that makes it pump anything.

They were a pretty well-made toilet. It wasn't at all unusual to come across an occasional 20+ yr old one that had been well maintained (kept lubricated and rebuilt every few years) still working, but I've never found one still in use that's as old as yours.

Unfortunately, though, they ain't building 'em like they used to, so don't expect your new toilets to last anywhere near as long the old Brydons did.

Btw...you said the old mounting bolts (you called them "studs") were glassed on the underside of the board...you DO know that the mounting bolts for all marine toilets are lag bolts...no nuts, just back 'em out?

Hi Peggie, That is pretty much what I have read as well as to service life etc. However when I said bolts that is what is there, bolts. Not lags. There were nuts on the top and the heads were glassed onto the bottom of the board so what was sticking up was just the studs. So just grabbed hold of them with a Crescent wrench and broke them off. Usually in order to use lag bolts there must be something substantial to fasten to, other than a barely 3/4 thick board. Bolts would be appropriate here. Thanks!

Giggitoni said:

Looks good! I'll be by in the morning, after my coffee, and give it a go.

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Thanks man, you're all heart! LOL!:lol:

HeadMistress said:

Btw...you said the old mounting bolts (you called them "studs") were glassed on the underside of the board...you DO know that the mounting bolts for all marine toilets are lag bolts...no nuts, just back 'em out?

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No, I did not know that. Why would this be so?

However when I said bolts that is what is there, bolts. Not lags. There were nuts on the top and the heads were glassed onto the bottom of the board so what was sticking up was just the studs.

That's because they were installed incorrectly...the heads should have been on the top.

Usually in order to use lag bolts there must be something substantial to fasten to, other than a barely 3/4 thick board.

All marine toilet mfrs have been using lag bolts for at least 50 years without a problem.

Mike, the reason is because on most boats--especially fiberglass production boats--there's no access the area under the head sole to make it possible to put nuts on the bolts. That's most likely the reason the bolt heads were glassed in...the installer had never bothered to read the installation instructions and couldn't figure out any other way to do it.

With all due respect to your knowledge..its not possible to say that ALL anything is ALL the time in boats or anywhere else. You mention toilet manufacturers using lags for 50 years, but toilet makers don't install toilets, boat builders do. As one who did shipwright work for nearly 30 years I have found that basically almost anything is normal, in other words whatever it takes to make it work, but using lags in place of bolts is usually only done where there is as you suggest no access to the underside of something or where there is enough wood for lags to hang on to.

78puget-trawler said:

With all due respect to your knowledge..its not possible to say that ALL anything is ALL the time in boats or anywhere else. You mention toilet manufacturers using lags for 50 years, but toilet makers don't install toilets, boat builders do. As one who did shipwright work for nearly 30 years I have found that basically almost anything is normal, in other words whatever it takes to make it work, but using lags in place of bolts is usually only done where there is as you suggest no access to the underside of something or where there is enough wood for lags to hang on to.

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Very true. However most production boats, which the majority of us own, are built by manufacturers who actually read how the marine toilets were to be installed, and then designed the boats to accommodate them. Which in this case would be to make sure there is enough marine plywood under the toilet for lag bolts to be used.

Of course, custom builds or one-offs are a different story and after many years of owner modifications, all bets are off as to what we may actually find in the older boats we buy.

If you insist on splitting semantic hairs, manufacturers have been supplying only lag bolts with all marine toilets for more than 50 years, along with installation instructions. They can't force builders or anyone else to follow the instructions or even bother to read 'em before deciding that they know a better way to do it.

Have a nice day!

dhays said:

Very true. However most production boats, which the majority of us own, are built by manufacturers who actually read how the marine toilets were to be installed, and then designed the boats to accommodate them. Which in this case would be to make sure there is enough marine plywood under the toilet for lag bolts to be used.

Of course, custom builds or one-offs are a different story and after many years of owner modifications, all bets are off as to what we may actually find in the older boats we buy.

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You cannot get much more "production" than a 78 CHB though right?

HeadMistress said:

If you insist on splitting semantic hairs, manufacturers have been supplying only lag bolts with all marine toilets for more than 50 years, along with installation instructions. They can't force builders or anyone else to follow the instructions or even bother to read 'em before deciding that they know a better way to do it.

Have a nice day!

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I would be interested to know what percentage of production boats actually used those supplied lags in installations. I would bet its not that high. Have a better day!

78puget-trawler said:

I would be interested to know what percentage of production boats actually used those supplied lags in installations. I would bet its not that high. Have a better day!

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Good question. I have only had 4 boats with marine toilets and holding tanks, 1 Cal, 2 Catalinas, and now a North Pacific, so my own sample size is ridiculously small. 4 out of 4 used lag bolts to mount the marine toilets. Again, 4 boats and three manufacturers is too small a number to make any meaningful generalizations.

I would be interested to know what percentage of production boats actually used those supplied lags in installations. I would bet its not that high.

Based on the number of forum posts I've seen over the last 25 years from owners who are replacing toilets for the first time and want to know how to access the nuts on the bolts to remove the old one, and are able to just back 'em out when they learn that's all they need to do--not only from me but from other posters--I'd estimate that few if any builders DON'T use 'em.

dhays said:

Good question. I have only had 4 boats with marine toilets and holding tanks, 1 Cal, 2 Catalinas, and now a North Pacific, so my own sample size is ridiculously small. 4 out of 4 used lag bolts to mount the marine toilets. Again, 4 boats and three manufacturers is too small a number to make any meaningful generalizations.

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Dave, do you remember what the lags went into, just a mounting board or into other wood underneath? Usually lags are not used to just mount something on a thinish board.

HeadMistress said:

I would be interested to know what percentage of production boats actually used those supplied lags in installations. I would bet its not that high.

Based on the number of forum posts I've seen over the last 25 years from owners who are replacing toilets for the first time and want to know how to access the nuts on the bolts to remove the old one, and are able to just back 'em out when they learn that's all they need to do--not only from me but from other posters--I'd estimate that few if any builders DON'T use 'em.

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Well you would certainly have more knowledge of that than I. I just base this on this boat using bolts and my own experience working on boats for many years and in this particular application on (this) boat, bolts would certainly be the fastening of choice.

Where - without this forum - would I ever learn this level of detail about bolting heads to soles?

Anyway, good job with the install! Interesting that you went with a manual head, which just happens to be my preference, too. Everyone else seems to be going electric, or vacuum, or even composting.

CaptTom said:

Where - without this forum - would I ever learn this level of detail about bolting heads to soles?

Anyway, good job with the install! Interesting that you went with a manual head, which just happens to be my preference, too. Everyone else seems to be going electric, or vacuum, or even composting.

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Just cheap I guess. These heads are under $200 delivered, the others not so much. And yeah, I didn't figure such a thread could be at all interesting or controversial. Thanks!

78puget-trawler said:

Dave, do you remember what the lags went into, just a mounting board or into other wood underneath? Usually lags are not used to just mount something on a thinish board.

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The last time I replaced a head it was on my Catalina 400. I believe it was 3/4" plywood on which FRP was laid. There was no fiberglass on the underside of the plywood.

78puget-trawler said:

Just cheap I guess. These heads are under $200 delivered, the others not so much. Thanks!

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My current boat is the first that I have owned with an electric head. To be honest, I wasn't excited about it. A manual head just seems so simple and as you say it is really inexpensive to replace if needed and very easy to work on.

However, after having used it now for several months, I really do like it. The best thing is that it really simplifies instruction for folks on the boat. On my Techma there are only two buttons. So far no one has been confused.

Here is the fwd head set up, same as the aft exactly. Must be a CHB job with such old heads. Corroded bronze bolts and nuts.

78puget-trawler said:

Dave, do you remember what the lags went into, just a mounting board or into other wood underneath? Usually lags are not used to just mount something on a thinish board.

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I've never seen a cabin sole--carpet, FG,wood or tile--that wasn't on a thick (most likely 3/4" plywood) sub-floor. If it weren't, it couldn't support the weight of even people walking on it...it would flex, buckle and crack.

However, it's YOUR boat...do whatever floats it for YOU!

HeadMistress said:

I've never seen a cabin sole--carpet, FG,wood or tile--that wasn't on a thick (most likely 3/4" plywood) sub-floor. If it weren't, it couldn't support the weight of even people walking on it...it would flex, buckle and crack.

However, it's YOUR boat...do whatever floats it for YOU!

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I guess I don't understand your point here. What is it I am supposed to do or have done, that doesn't make sense? I am replacing two heads, using the same fastening system as it came apparently from the factory (CHB). I was merely asking Dave a question. Am I missing something else here?

Hey, same low budget model we have.

Got a tip which I'm sure you don't need, but somebody might.

Ours started showing signs of being blocked (in flushing mode it would fill up much faster than emptying) then on a recent trip it plugged up tight. Nothing was going through.

Rather than launch into the disgusting job of pulling off hoses to clear the obstruction, I decided to have a look under the plywood base the toilet was sitting on...the PO had supported the base on the sides, but the back was resting on the outlet hose which had slowly been forced almost flat

Teased it back into a circular shape, put a hose clamp there to keep it round, and now it works perfectly.

Lesson learned...diagnose toilet problems in an increasing order of complexity and/or disgusting factor.

Thanks for the tip, will watch for that.

MurrayM said:

Hey, same low budget model we have.

Got a tip which I'm sure you don't need, but somebody might.

Ours started showing signs of being blocked (in flushing mode it would fill up much faster than emptying) then on a recent trip it plugged up tight. Nothing was going through.

Rather than launch into the disgusting job of pulling off hoses to clear the obstruction, I decided to have a look under the plywood base the toilet was sitting on...the PO had supported the base on the sides, but the back was resting on the outlet hose which had slowly been forced almost flat

Teased it back into a circular shape, put a hose clamp there to keep it round, and now it works perfectly.

Lesson learned...diagnose toilet problems in an increasing order of complexity and/or disgusting factor.

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Did you also glue in a packer like a short length of say, inch through timber, under that back edge to take the main weight as well, Murray..? Or was there not enough room. I doubt a hose clamp will last long before squashing down.

Also FWIW, in my '75 CHB, the toilet mounts with 3 things that look like large self-tapping threaded screws, about 5mm thick near the head, and with a bolt type head. Are they what you are calling lag bolts Peggie..? They went into a base of about 3/4 inch timber, into which I have made cut-outs so I can reach things. So I have 3 removable 1/4 inch ply extra sections covering the whole base, 2 of which I can remove, one either side of the loo, even after it is bolted down, for access through the cut out sections to my thru-hull, taps and diverter valve.