Towing lien

Bought a 1987 42' Jefferson last fall in Detroit Michigan. It was winterized and shrink wrapped out of the water till the end of May. We had it checked out and all systems were good. We motored in by water to Southport NC and put it into St James Plantation Marina. We were on the water for seven weeks and all went well. 1 week after docking at the marina the boat took on water. The 3208t csterpillar engines and generator are now pickled in oil. The water rose half way up engines. We have Boat US towing and we understood the towing would be covered. They never put the claim through and are now threatening to put a lien on the boat. They have not billed us as yet. The boat yard is telling us they will not keep our boat for us either. We have no insurance for damage or loss. We will at this point sell it for anything we can get but we are worried about fishy stuff going on w liens. Paying a bill is not an issue. We can afford it. Just seems really odd. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

So the towing company never filed a claim with TowBoatUS? Do they say why?
Who has not billed you? The tow company? Have you called them or TBUS?
Are you not fixing the boat? WHy would the yard not just charge you storage?
Are you just selling it and calling it a total loss with no insurance coverage?
Who have you called and what was their reply?

I am sure there are lots of people that can help here, but I am having trouble figuring out exactly what this issues are here. You need to fill in some of the gaps... or maybe I am a doofus. ;-)

Was there a reason Towboatus wasn't called to do the tow? They look to be about 5 miles from the marina.

Ted

PM sent Neil..

lots more to the story......

I can't figure from what was posted, where the towing was done. The boat took on water at the marina so where's the towing? Sounds to me that there might be a salvage claim, not a tow.

Water half way up a 3208 will do little damage. Maybe a starter and alternator. Gennie could be hurt pretty bad though.

So what did TB do? Come to the dock and pump it out? Tow it to the yard? Once paid for their work, there should be no lien. And if they submit an outrageous bill, that can be negotiated.

You have towing. That is different than salvage. (which it sounds like Boatus did for you). Towing is covered. Salvage is an insurance item. Have you called boatus to get the details?

Towing gets your boat back to the dock. Salvage happens when your boat sinks or grounds and needs 'extra' help to get towed back to the dock. Sounds like you owe boatus some $$

So far, I'm not grasping any of this. Boat was fine. Boat got to marina. Boat started taking on water at marina. You don't state if you were there or gone or how rapidly or what was done about the water. Boat was towed from somewhere to somewhere, but I have no idea where. It was towed by someone but I have no idea who and whether they were through a tow membership or directly engaged, nor do I know whether they told you salvage wasn't covered. Shipyard won't keep the boat for you, I'm guessing means store it for free or what? You have no insurance on the boat, I understand. This would certainly be a logical consequence of no insurance. Your title is "Towing Lien" but you don't say whether anyone has put a lien on the boat nor do you indicate an amount. What is fishy about a lien? One provides a service, doesn't get paid, they put a lien. Not fishy. You say paying is not an issue, but then what is the issue? You say "just seems really odd," but what is it you are saying seems odd?

I would be more than willing to provide answers or opinions. Perhaps you left a lot out trying to be brief. I would suggest trying again, with all details, with the sequence of events, and with amounts and circumstances. The whole story.

We are gold members w Boat Us. Apparently George Bruton from BoatUs did not file the towing insurance claim. Boat Us Corp is checking into it. All should be covered and we should receive an invoice for balance. It was not a salvage problem. The water was pumped out and we had it towed by Bost Us from St James Marina to Southport Marina, about 5 miles, and immediately taken out of the water, and a diesel mechanic pumped oil into the engines and generator. I will post pics as soon as I can.

That sure would be a salvage in my neck of the woods.


For either tow company.


Yet I have towed members in good standing after a quick pumpout that was billed separately, just allowing the tow to fall into towing insurance.


That said, that wasn't common for a situation like this....usually the whole thing falls to hull insurance or cash.

So then dont get the towing company to do the pump out of the boat, otherwise they will claim salvage.

Pump it out yourself or hire someone to pump out with no salvage, Then call for towing.

Our marina is a working watermen's type place on Chesapeake bay, the owner has several big pumps and wont make salvage claims on boats who have slips at his place.
I would say half the people here with boats can hardly afford to own them at Marina Cove Boat Basin.



I have my boat on the far right spit about 8 slips from the inner end. It is very well protected and I can park a few feet from the boat. Costs me $150 per month with free electric and water.

Unfortunately...if the towing company finds out your vessel needing a tow because of fire or flooding.....they can charge for the tow.

captainneil said:

We are gold members w Boat Us. Apparently George Bruton from BoatUs did not file the towing insurance claim. Boat Us Corp is checking into it. All should be covered and we should receive an invoice for balance. It was not a salvage problem. The water was pumped out and we had it towed by Bost Us from St James Marina to Southport Marina, about 5 miles, and immediately taken out of the water, and a diesel mechanic pumped oil into the engines and generator. I will post pics as soon as I can.

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What is all this talk about a lien then? Has one been filed? It doesn't sound like it.

Then about the boatyard, which I assume is Zimmerman, saying they will not keep the boat for you? Unless you're going to have them work on it, why would they?

When did you buy the membership? Note please Towboat US is "membership". It is not insurance.

Did Towboat US pump it out? If so, I refer you to their exclusion paragraph, which is why psneeld explains it as salvage.

This Towing Service Agreement becomes effective 11:59 PM on the day of payment and does not apply to: ..... salvage, including but not restricted to hard groundings, or assistance requiring more than one vessel, pumps, divers, airbags or other special equipment;​

How long did this take them and what was their charge?

They pumped out the water. It had about 24" in engine room. Then towed it to Southport Marina. About 5 miles. Zimmermans Marine pulled it from the water and put it up on the hard. It is dry now, and a diesel mechanic pumped oil into the engines and generator.

captainneil said:

They pumped out the water. It had about 24" in engine room. Then towed it to Southport Marina. About 5 miles. Zimmermans Marine pulled it from the water and put it up on the hard. It is dry now, and a diesel mechanic pumped oil into the engines and generator.

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Sounds like a mid level inconvenience. Repair the failed fitting, relaunch and start the engines. Soon. Before they deteriorate. Yes rebuild starter and alternator. Point is this was not an end of the world situation.

Unfortunately...if the towing company finds out your vessel needing a tow because of fire or flooding.....they can charge for the tow.

Why would the tow company care "why" I needed a tow as long as no extra work was required to effect the tow. For example, if I had a leak which I pumped and repaired myself but still required a tow because my starter was soaked, what business is it of theirs and why would this negate any towing coverage I might have? I don't understand.

psneeld said:

That sure would be a salvage in my neck of the woods..

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The tow verses salvage approach has always confused me, and I know enough to be dangerous on this subject. Psneeld, it sounds like you have done some towing, so I will press you on this a bit.

I just briefly read the OP's post, but I would think this is not a salvage. op. The OP's boat was not hard aground, so the tow boat showed up, connected lines and helped with some pump out. The tow boat guys in my area routinely do this, and I don't recall hearing about them claiming salvage. Granted, this can take many forms, but just generally speaking.

I can see why the tow company may want some extra $, and I would gladly pay a few more hundred dollars to cover their time, but I still don't see how this would be a salvage op?

I didn't make the rules....if your boat takes on water or catches fire to the point of burned wiring preventing a start...usually hull insurance is involved.


If hull insurance is involved, usually tow membership doesn't cover any work done to remedy the situation, including a tow to a repair facility.


Again, I didn't dream any membership up...just passing along the membership rules.


Remember I did say occasionally a tow under membership is done after fire or flooding, why is up to the franchise owner but is not a regular covered item.


Much of the time if the boat just needs an electric pump tossed in while under tow to the marina...sure the tow is covered but there usually is a charge for the pump. And that would not be a salvage....but in order to deny towing, it is deemed salvage or "just plain old marine contracting", or whatever you want to call it....in order to charge for whatever work is done plus the tow.


I know it all sounds a bit fishy, but 90% of the time it is pretty obvious and all but a few understood. I have done hundreds of pumpouts and salvages, plus I am sure well over a thousand tows...only a few overlapped and were confusing to the boatowner.

Capt Kangeroo said:

Unfortunately...if the towing company finds out your vessel needing a tow because of fire or flooding.....they can charge for the tow.

Why would the tow company care "why" I needed a tow as long as no extra work was required to effect the tow. For example, if I had a leak which I pumped and repaired myself but still required a tow because my starter was soaked, what business is it of theirs and why would this negate any towing coverage I might have? I don't understand.

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A leak that soaked your starter is one thing, coming and pumping you out and towing when the starter AND entire bilge was swamped in salt water is another.

That is one of those personal things....how you describe it and answer the questions of the nature of your breakdown might determine whether it is deemed covered or not.

Different tow operators do different things and sometimes not within the technical rules of membership.

As to towing vs salvage let's try a different approach. If whatever has taken place and is going on would be a valid insurance claim (you don't have to make one for this to come into play), then that's salvage. Hard grounding you have damage that could be. Sinking you have damage that could be. In all those cases the towing would be included as part of your insurance. Now, you don't get a break from the tow company if you don't have insurance.

Once again, a reminder to everyone that Towboat US and Seatow are not insurance policies or insurance in any way. They are membership agreements. They are there to cover things that insurance won't. Read the agreements carefully. Look at the exclusions, they are there. Now, sometimes you might protest and they might reconsider, but just because they're nice in one case, doesn't mean you can expect that.

In this case, the moment you had the sinking, it became insurance and not tow membership, it became salvage.

I thought I would read what BoatUS says about the difference between towing and salvage. They are my insurance company so their options would directly affect me should I ever find myself in that situation. Reading, I found this image in Prt 2 PF the article.



This is a photo of my boat that I hadn't seen before. FWIW, they labeled this as "salvage". Trevor Brice from North Pacific Yachts did tell me that the owner in this situation did not get a clear contract from the tow assist operator prior to the work being done. This resulted in a later dispute where the tow operator wished to claim a % of the value of the boat. It was resolved by the insurance company but was an example of the owner not knowing the rules and his rights and responsibilities.

Having BatUS towing and BoatUS insurance are 2 different things and really not connected.


BoatUS insurance often used Sea Tow in the Cape may area for salvage jobs...just depends.


Being able to claim a percentage of a yachts worth for a salvage is very hard unless true peril is involved.... for both the vessel and the salvor.


Often arbitration resolves the difference in opinions.


If you are in a situation other than a gentle rocking on the bottom or just broken down and adrift or anchored...ask...covered or salvage? If salvage, then there are a few forms that should be gone over before work commences.


If your boat is in danger of more damage occurring...and things are urgent...it IS salvage and signing anything or not is almost irrelevant. Refuse help and your insurance company can balk at you not trying to reduce the damage. Take the help and your insurance argues and refuses the claim....well they will be hard pressed if you can clearly show your vessel was in danger.

There was a situation a few years back when 4 boats from our marina decided to raft up to a single anchor at Block Island. Up comes the wind, nobody on board, and away they (4 boats) go!! The friendly tow company (well used to this situation) relocated the vessels to spare moorings and charged each boat a salvage fee of about 10% of perceived value. At least one insurance company paid up. Not sure about the others.
I am glad to say we were well secured with an 88lb Rocna and 100+ft of chain!!

Chrisjs said:

There was a situation a few years back when 4 boats from our marina decided to raft up to a single anchor at Block Island. Up comes the wind, nobody on board, and away they (4 boats) go!! The friendly tow company (well used to this situation) relocated the vessels to spare moorings and charged each boat a salvage fee of about 10% of perceived value. At least one insurance company paid up. Not sure about the others.
I am glad to say we were well secured with an 88lb Rocna and 100+ft of chain!!

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Easily fought and won for a reasonable fee rather than percentage.

Unless that tower could prove the vessels were in a situation of imminent total or near total loss....

Did you have liability insurance. I've gotten that on past boats from Boat USA and they cover moving the boat if it sinks, oil spills etc. they don't cover the boat.
Did you sign anything with the tow boat operator?
So sorry for this mess you have to deal with!

How is your boat now and what was the extent of the damage to the hull.

psneeld said:

Having BatUS towing and BoatUS insurance are 2 different things and really not connected.


BoatUS insurance often used Sea Tow in the Cape may area for salvage jobs...just depends.


Being able to claim a percentage of a yachts worth for a salvage is very hard unless true peril is involved.... for both the vessel and the salvor.


Often arbitration resolves the difference in opinions.


If you are in a situation other than a gentle rocking on the bottom or just broken down and adrift or anchored...ask...covered or salvage? If salvage, then there are a few forms that should be gone over before work commences.


If your boat is in danger of more damage occurring...and things are urgent...it IS salvage and signing anything or not is almost irrelevant. Refuse help and your insurance company can balk at you not trying to reduce the damage. Take the help and your insurance argues and refuses the claim....well they will be hard pressed if you can clearly show your vessel was in danger.

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Very succinct explanation. Thanks.

I guess to be ultra safe shut all seacocks when leaving the boat for any period. A pain but....

jrs1958 said:

I guess to be ultra safe shut all seacocks when leaving the boat for any period. A pain but....

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He never told us the cause of the water, did he?

Having alarms is a lesson to learn too and they can easily send messages to your cell phone. Relatively inexpensive.