Would one of you please buy this vessel?

It would be interesting to see what boats are on their Walmart list and why. Same for Nordstrom Boats.

When I read stories of people dying at sea, the stories are typically about

The above post is a great one, a "heavily buit boat" is just that. Typically the highest engineered boats are light ones..just as in other structures they put the strength in areas it needs it and not where it doesnt. I have friends that had a boat cystom designdd and built to be avery fast racer yet be able to cruise her. She was built to race the pac cup..then they sailed her back and left for a circumnavigation. That was 25 years ago and the boat is looking great and still going strong..all 50' of her sub 20,000 lbs.

Where a "cheap or walmart" boat typically gets sketchy is in the implementation of plumbing, mechanical, electrical..thats where I have seen the majority of issues. Wight as well leave the teak decks, window leaks, door leaks out of the equation as even the finest boat with those at some point has issues.
I still think the original boat in this post looks like a good value..the mid deck is a little strange..but it would be appreciated when geusts are aboard and the Admiral gets a bit randy in the forepeak!
Hollywood


Gordon[/QUOTE]

Gordon J said:

I only mentioned it here because a poster mentioned the obvious quality of the Lymann Morse, and it got me thinking of the bigger picture.

Click to expand...

Actually, you were the first to mention "quality". In my original post I said it was a "pedigreed yacht" and "nice". Going back to the 1920s over 200 boats have been built in their yard. The boat under discussion is almost certainly a Jarvis Newman design (I'm thinking a stretched version of their 46'). This is probably the ultimate pedigree for a "Down East" lobster-yacht.

"Nice", well - sure - that's my opinion.

There are a lot of elements ("qualities" if you will) that go into building a yacht - and it's upkeep and upgrading after it launches. Some of these elements have clear hierarchies - there are clearly observable differences between, for example, Buck Algonquin and Perko hardware. Or one of my personal favorites Wichard. The move to offshore production has clouded the picture somewhat, but I think almost anyone on this forum could pick up a "quality" cleat and distinguish it immediately from a low-quality version.

Another set of elements are the raw materials. Before the advent of new materials like titanium and carbon fiber, the weight and cost of materials was closely correlated. African teak is 61 pounds per cubic foot and FEQ (First European Quality) grade teak is surprisingly close in price all over the world - it's a commodity. Fiberglass and resin, same. OK, when you get into resin-infusing and other advanced technologies the correlation breaks down, but for the types of boats discussed in this forum their original launched price was pretty closely correlated to their cost to manufacture, which was correlated to the cost of materials and components. And labor. Now that is the element that can vary greatly between different regions of the world, but there are some compensating factors in terms of freight, duty, and remote overseeing that don't make the ultimate difference as great.

And then there's marketing. That certainly adds cost , and to the extent that the marketing can induce a buyer to believe that their boat has "quality" (this is closer to the term as you were using it) then it certainly adds to the perceived value of the boat to the buyer. Whether they were discerning buyers, and whether that impression is sustained over time and into the used market, are large parts of what goes into a brand's success.

And then there are the aesthetics. This is the area where we all have to agree to disagree. But if a boat was designed by the Herreshoffs (there were several), both Ed Monks, Garden, Philip Rhodes, Tom Fexas, Art DeFever, Jarvis Newman, Jack Hargrave, Olin Stephens...and I'll even include the character designers like Sam Devlin and Jay Benford...then you have something that is distinct, and that has great value for some owners/observers. Some of these designers did production lines (e.g. the Monks for Roughwater and Ocean Alexander, Hargrave for Hatteras) but many of their designs were commissioned for well-healed and knowledgeable owners. OK, there are probably some clunkers there for eccentric owners, but for someone who wants an individualized boat rather than one of hundreds of the exact same model these boats have irreplaceable character.

Just look at the thread "Interesting boats". How many of those were production line boats?

Wayfarer said:

Oh man, what a heartbreaker. That sheerline! That long sweeping foredeck! what a beauty.

Click to expand...

Yes, and the Jarvis Newman design is clear to me (2nd image is a JN 46 built by L-M):

53' x 13' is pretty odd proportions for any modern Maine Lobsteryacht. Note that the JV 46 above is 46' x 15'. So I would say the LM 53 is listed cheap because she's a stretched boat, the clue is the flat sheer aft.

For those of you interested in Lymann Morse boats, one is going on the auction block in Holland in early April. I believe it is a 48, which if I understand correctly has significant engine issues. I can agree that It has beautiful lines.

Gordon

Well...I didn't want to believe that 13' beam so curiosity got the better of me and I called the broker, and got a return call from Capt Broadbent (203-223-6728) who runs the boat for the owners.

And I was right (and Tad was really right). It was one of the first hulls out of the "new" Lyman-Morse and it was actually a 38' that was stretched by the then Commodore of NYC when his boat was a committee boat for an America's Cup. It was launched as Blue Dolphin and is shown in the "History" page on the Lyman-Morse web site:


The (original) rudderpost is just below the forward bulkhead of the aft cabin (which, of course, is also where the (original) shaft and prop are. Which certainly explains the bow and stern thrusters.

It's a one of kind boat waiting for that one of a kind buyer (it won't be me ).

"Stretching" a boat does not mandate that it will handle poorly.

In the NYC area there are many licensed passenger boats that use the USCG measurement to the rudder stock to claim the vessel is under a certain lower tonnage.

This allows the boat company to hire cheaper captains that don't have a big boat license.

The East River can run 5K in both directions , so predictable handling is required.

FF said:

"Stretching" a boat does not mandate that it will handle poorly.

Click to expand...

Stretching the boat without lengthening the shafts and moving (and enlarging) the rudder is absolutely going to make the boat handle poorly in many conditions. Think about it - you now have an additional 15' of boat hanging out aft that you have to throw around, except you only have the rudder area of a boat 2/3 of that boat's proper size. Give it a short blast forward and the boat's just going to laugh at you. It's going to steer like...a towed boat with a midships tie rather than a hip tie.

Many of the downeast builders routinely stretch their hulls and don't move the running gear. Additions of up to 4' are common without changing running gear. Look at the Muscle Ridge 42' stretched to 46' . These boats are used by commercial waterman to make a living, day in, day out. H&H, SW Boats and Wesmac do these all the time.

"Stretching the boat without lengthening the shafts and moving (and enlarging) the rudder is absolutely going to make the boat handle poorly in many conditions."


Perhaps as a DIY project , but remember the boats are inspected by the USCG.

The plans , usually from a NA , are first accepted and the build is monitored as the work progresses.

A NA will properly size the rudder knowing its fwd location.

The operators say the big difference in handling is the vessels pivot point , closer to amidships than 2/3 from the bow.

Hardly a big deal.,,,after the first time !

I have been in touch with the Broker, but am having trouble getting info.. Guess I will have to schedule a visit. I'll let you know what I see...

windless said:

I have been in touch with the Broker, but am having trouble getting info.. Guess I will have to schedule a visit. I'll let you know what I see...

Click to expand...

Try the captain - I published his contact info above.


Keith

"Details" page on the listing now yields a "404 - Page not found" error...

Beautiful boat.

separate cabins like that were common on an admiral's barge.

Wayfarer said:

Oh man, what a heartbreaker. That sheerline! That long sweeping foredeck! what a beauty.

Click to expand...

That boat is a total abortion. It looks like someone took two boats and tried to graft them together. What a mess esthetically.

Mediocre fly bridge, bazaar sitting/dinning area above aft cabin that has bench seats with no backs!

Aft cabin that looks like it set up as some kind of sick ward.

Very suspicious that there are no photos of the important stuff.

Chop off that aft cabin and you'd have a good looking boat. You could put the aft cabin on pontoons and tow it along with you.

Then you'd have a good looking boat.

FF said:

"Stretching the boat without lengthening the shafts and moving (and enlarging) the rudder is absolutely going to make the boat handle poorly in many conditions."


Perhaps as a DIY project , but remember the boats are inspected by the USCG.


A NA will properly size the rudder knowing its fwd location.

Click to expand...

No and no.

The USGC is not going to inspect a non-commercial un-inspected vessel.

And most stretched boats I've run or seen use the same rudders as they had before the stretch.

refugio said:

Stretching the boat without lengthening the shafts and moving (and enlarging) the rudder is absolutely going to make the boat handle poorly in many conditions. Think about it - you now have an additional 15' of boat hanging out aft that you have to throw around, except you only have the rudder area of a boat 2/3 of that boat's proper size. Give it a short blast forward and the boat's just going to laugh at you. It's going to steer like...a towed boat with a midships tie rather than a hip tie.

Click to expand...

I'm guessing you've never run any or many stretched boats.

They don't necessarily handle that bad. While there is a short learning curve and may not like a follow sea (like a lot of boats stretched or not) they are not that big a deal to handle.

Capt.Bill11 said:

I'm guessing you've never run any or many stretched boats.

They don't necessarily handle that bad. While there is a short learning curve and may not like a follow sea (like a lot of boats stretched or not) they are not that big a deal to handle.

Click to expand...

My first cruise was on a "stretched" boat... Royal Caribbean had taken one of their cruise ships, cut it in half, and inserted a huge section of "new boat" into the middle and welded it back up ...like this:

Why do cruise lines lengthen existing cruise ships and how did this practice come about? - Blog Article View


The cruise left out of Philly, down the river and out to sea heading north.
The entire time the boat was in the river, it rolled. ALOT. No idea if it had anything to do with the stretch, but have been on several cruises since, and never experienced that on any other ship.

boatpoker said:

When a broker says "needs TLC" it usually means it's freakin' disaster.

Click to expand...

This ^^^^^^^^

Gordon J said:

Below market value. Obviously not or it would be sold.

Click to expand...

And this ^^^^^^^

Personally, I like the looks of it, and the separate master cabin. Were I in the market right now, and located in that area, I would probably at least take a look.

Still, I would want to take a very, very close look. It looks great in the pictures. Pictures don't tell the whole story, though. If they did, this one would have sold for more money, more quickly.

Capt.Bill11 said:

That boat is a total abortion. It looks like someone took two boats and tried to graft them together. What a mess esthetically.

Mediocre fly bridge, bazaar sitting/dinning area above aft cabin that has bench seats with no backs!

Aft cabin that looks like it set up as some kind of sick ward.

Very suspicious that there are no photos of the important stuff.

Chop off that aft cabin and you'd have a good looking boat. You could put the aft cabin on pontoons and tow it along with you.

Then you'd have a good looking boat.

Click to expand...

I was thinking the same thing. Possibly a tired old boat, but built by a very reputable company. Still I think I'll drive down for a look see.....

Longmeadow Mass. ?

It seems the forum has decided this is a stretched boat but I dont find any definitive info that this is true.

bayview said:

It seems the forum has decided this is a stretched boat but I dont find any definitive info that this is true.

Click to expand...

In post #37 in this thread was the builder's site documenting the launch as a 38', and now it's 52-53'. How much more definitive are you looking for?

Capt.Bill11 apparently has experience running similar vessels and thinks that the handling will be just fine with under-sized rudders about 2/3 of the way back in the boat. I have not run a boat so configured but have run stretched Hatteras MYs with cockpit extensions with and without running gear modifications, and my opinion is he's nuts.


Keith

refugio said:

In post #37 in this thread was the builder's site documenting the launch as a 38', and now it's 52-53'. How much more definitive are you looking for?

Capt.Bill11 apparently has experience running similar vessels and thinks that the handling will be just fine with under-sized rudders about 2/3 of the way back in the boat. I have not run a boat so configured but have run stretched Hatteras MYs with cockpit extensions with and without running gear modifications, and my opinion is he's nuts.


Keith

Click to expand...

She is documented at 50.9'. As documentation length is from inner part of stem to forward face of rudder stock it would seem the rudders were moved when (if) she was stretched. Documentation dates on NOAA and USCG sites suggest she was "stretched" (if she was) before she left the factory. She is listed on the Lyman Morse build list as 51' LOA and originally documented as "Blue Dolphin", now documented as "Conmara".

Post #37 also says she was built for the Commodore of the NYYC but the build list shows the original owner as John R. Magee who is not listed as a past commodore of NYYC ....... the mystery continues.

boatpoker said:

She is documented at 50.9'....
Post #37 also says she was built for the Commodore of the NYYC but the build list shows the original owner as John R. Magee who is not listed as a past commodore of NYYC ....... the mystery continues.

Click to expand...

Ah, I meant "documented" there more like "published".

And I think you may want to re-read #37, where I reported (per the current captain) that the modification was for the "then commodore" (now PC) but I didn't assert that was for whom it was commissioned.


Keith

Bill I disagree w you on all counts .. sorry

The boat looks great. Has nice lines .. even nice cabin lines and the window shapes are tasteful. As I recall you don't like boats w/o the FB either. I think you don't like anything that's not common.
And if you're talking stretched boat w/o moving rudders aft .. Just bad.

refugio said:

Ah, I meant "documented" there more like "published".

And I think you may want to re-read #37, where I reported (per the current captain) that the modification was for the "then commodore" (now PC) but I didn't assert that was for whom it was commissioned.


Keith

Click to expand...

Not arguing, just pointing out that the history is not quite defined.

Well...it's been 5 months since I first spotted this boat, and I still like it. In March I said they seemed anxious at $99K, and now they're asking $85K. And I bet they're still anxious.

OK, it's definitely unique - 53' and only a 13' beam, and I'm still not sure about that un-extended running gear (I'd forgotten that it was a single 3208). The captain said it handled fine, but...

And it's still one of the most beautiful hulls I've seen and the pedigree is top tier. I'm sure it's a bit rough - even rougher than the pictures (which do NOT show the ER) indicate.

I'm no longer anxious to transport it over to my coast, but if I were in the NorthEast I'd certainly want to take a good look at it.

This thread has prompted us to go take a look at it. We are looking for a 50' foot Trawler to use as live aboards in southern CT. The 53' x 13' is a concern in any beam sea as we have frequently in our travels. The Capt. has already responded with his contact info.
Thanks for all of the incredible information provided so far.