Carbon Foam Batteries 1 Year Later

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Lots of options.

First thing I would look at is your budget. One of the "best" options would be to simply replace your charger/inverter, upgrade your engine alternator, and invest in a new set of fireflies. That certainly wouldn't fit my budget.

Second thing to ask yourself is whether you have the access and temperament to take care of wet cells. If so, consider replacing the house bank with golf carts. That is typically one of your cheapest options for $/ah. Plus, your older chargers should be able to handle those just fine.

In addition of course, I would look at solar options for keeping your batteries up.
 
Daveo said:
Is this a dead thread?
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On life support. There are so many options and this is clearly one that hasn't caught on at this time. Still could be right for you, but so many factors and information that none of us have here regarding your use and your needs.

Has your current set up not been satisfactory? If not, then I'd evaluate options vs. how well they'll solve what you currently find unsatisfactory.
 
Thanks for the reply. Good points. To Dave's, yes there are "better" money-no-object solutions. Trying to work with what I got, when it's time for a total redesign seems like lithium might be the answer. Not in my budget this time. While I am fine with battery maintenance, that won't happen when the boat is unattended, possibly two or three months at a stretch. That's what has me wondering if generic flooded cell batts, abuse them and consider them replaceable, might be a sensible choice. Please understand that this approach does not feel good to me, contrary to my nature, but may make the most economic sense. Solar is something I look forward to but, like replacing chargers, not in my budget now. I'm not even willing to buy new battery boxes! Working with what I got:)! Bigger boxes won't fit anyway. For BandB, my experience with this setup is limited, really nil, as all batteries, with one possible exception, are fried. Just got the boat and discovering new issues daily. So I guess I am really shooting in the dark. Bottom line is that fully charged batts collapse in about three hours with no load except fridge and freezer powered through inverter. I don't want to invest in a smaller bank of expensive carbon foam batteries only to find I need more capacity. Maybe I should invest instead in replacing the fridge and freezer with 12 volt units.
 
As dhays says, flooded LA batts are the less cost option, and provide good value for $. Solar is a good dhays idea too, as it seems the boat will be away from a power source for extended periods, but batts being solar charged can use some water, so something with caps that recapture the water is indicated.
Without knowing what your fridge and freezer draw it could be a big ask to run them on solar. You mention switching them to 12v units, are they currently 110 fed via an inverter? Current Danfoss 12v Waeco/Dometic or Engels may be less demanding.
 
You don't mention your generator. Addressing the refrigerator and freezer you'll likely use it more than you're thinking, but may find yourself doing so for A/C as well. Most Nordhavn's I know in the 46 or 47 range use their generators quite extensively. Now their cruising climate may be different than yours. Did you purchase from an individual, a broker, or through one of the Nordhavn brokers? Nordhavn is likely very familiar with the boat and would be very willing to talk this through with you. They're a great resource and I'd definitely use them.

At this point in your learning curve regarding this boat, I wouldn't go to a new technology. I'd tend toward the same setup the boat has had or something only slightly different. Since you don't have experience with the boat, I'd assume that the electrical system was good for the previous owner, unless Nordhavn or someone with direct knowledge said otherwise.

The time you're away from the boat how will it be stored?
 
Daveo said:
House bank totally fried comprised of a mix of types and sizes, 6 4D lead acid 1 4D AGM and 1 8D AGM. 8D AGM was once the main engine start battery and the 4D AGM is just loose in the engine room and blocking access to various things so I want it out.

I want to revert to having a dedicated engine start battery so that leaves just the 6 4Ds for the house bank. But wait, those 6 4 Ds are split into three isolatable pairs and 4 of them are in 8D sized boxes.

I'm told that mixing 4 8Ds and 2 4Ds would be a no no so, if that's true, seems like my best choices are, 1; 6 new AGM 4Ds, 2; 6 new Oasis G31 fireflys, I guess that should be fireflies?, or 3; mix 4 8D and 2 6D commodity lead acid batteries knowing it isn't a great install but they are cheap.
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Daveo said:
That's what has me wondering if generic flooded cell batts, abuse them and consider them replaceable, might be a sensible choice. Please understand that this approach does not feel good to me, contrary to my nature, but may make the most economic sense.
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One choice you didn't mention for house bank replacement (I think) is a suite of 6V golf cart battery pairs, wired in series/parallel to suit your 12V system. I think 3 GCs will fit into an 8D box, something like that... so 6 GCs installed in two 8D boxes could be maybe doable, maybe even easy. (OTOH, purpose-built two- and four-banger GC boxes wouldn't cost an arm or a leg. See NOCO, I think.)

Each pair would give you about 220 Ah. Two pairs is about 440 Ah, three pairs... etc etc etc. GCs are said to be built as true deep cycle batteries, thicker plates, stuff like that. There are also even taller versions, if you have space, to increase Ah even more.

Lifeline makes AGM versions ($$$), and Trojan T-105s ($) are routinely recommended flooded versions. If you have decent access, servicing the flooded option probably wouldn't be too onerous, and another choice is a watering system.

If you stay with 12V dual-purpose batteries, an individual G31 is much easier to lift and shift than a 4D or especially an 8D. Certainly the Firefly ($$$$) looks promising, but at fairly hefty expense. Less expensive but still very good are the Odyssey ($$$) and Lifeline AGMs ($$$). And then there are other G31 AGMs ($$), too...

-Chris
 
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The many suggestions here are well placed, and, it is probably good idea to call Nordhaven for their input... maybe even get original schematics too. In your position I'd spend the couple hundred $$ to have a reputable marine electrician come aboard the boat and really suss out what you have going on as well as to write-up a full diagram as to what he/she believes would be best alternatives. Then I would feel more secure in what I will spend some time and bucks on being choices that can pan out for years of efficient electrical usage. Couple hundred bucks for a marine electrician might save you a boat buck or two! :thumb:

:popcorn:
 
Adding a couple of hundred watts of solar would keep your batteries charged when the boat isn't in use. 200 watts of solar and a suitable MPPT controller shouldn't set you back more than $500 or so. Well worth the expense IMHO.
 
Daveo

Fortunately the answer for your questions are an email or two away. As suggested by Art, contact, PAE at Dana Point and they will provide solid input based upon dozens if not hundreds of Nordhavn installs and retrofits.

This thread is a gold mine of information, both general and specific. But specifics for your N46, equipped as yours currently is and your cruising plans can all be boiled down by Jim Leishman and cohorts. This gold mine thread presents a myriad of accurate and conflicting information as befits the subject. Going to PAE cuts to the chase.

On a different note, it was mentioned earlier that LA batteries have seen few changes during the past 50 years. Actually just the reverse is the case and speaks to why LAs remain as the best comparison for all others in marine and golf cart applications. A trip to the LAs design and fabrication studio will reveal that continual evolution occurs in plate design, separation tolerances, metallurgy, casing construction and efficiency.

Ripping apart an AGM, CF or gel cell will reveal plenty of Pb in an H+ medium. Kinda like arguing which beer, wine or whisky recharges the best and leaves fewer after effects.
 
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"While I am fine with battery maintenance, that won't happen when the boat is unattended, possibly two or three months at a stretch."

We leave LUCY unattended for basically 6 months every year.

We have a single 85W solar and a Trace 12A charge controller.

By simply setting the charge settings lower the batts do not run out of water.

The charger is set for 13.4 which is reached in about the first 30 min of sunshine then

12.8 is the fully charged float setting , which does not use very much water.

No big deal.
 
FF beat me to it. As long as your charger is set correctly, keeping the batteries topped up doesn't use up much water. Add a watering system and then you would be bullet proof. If the access is easy, consider the golf cart option. Cheap at one of the big box stores. You just have to have some cables made and that isn't too bad. GCs are a lot easier to move around than the big boys.

On my sailboat I replaced 2 4Ds with GCs. Great upgrade. On my current boat, I still have the original sealed LA house bank and thruster batteries. The boat is 6 years old and the batteries are going strong but I had to replace the generator start battery and the PO had already changed the engine start battery.

When it comes time to change my house bank, I am considering using GCs again for economy with a watering system. If my wife wins the lottery I may go with fireflies. :)
 
#1 on your hit parade should be getting rid of the excessive fridge and freezer load.

I have said this before, so regular readers will skip this part: My boat came with a fridge that used excessive power. By replacing it with a 12 v unit, I cut the power requirement to less than 1/3 of original, I was adle to cut my battery banks to 1/2 of what I started with, add a 12 v freezer and get long life out of LA batteries.

With both a fridge and freezer, I power then with a set of 4 x 6v Golf cart sized LA batteries. I also have a single 4D LA for starting 2 propulsion engines and one genset. The alternators are: 120 amps on one engine, regulated by a "Smart regulator, 50 or 60 (have to look to be sure) with internal regulation on the other engine, linked only to the start battery.
Shore power and Genset power both go through a Xantrex MS2000, that is 100 amps of charge and of 2000 watts of inverter. I put this system together 12 years ago. After 10 years I swapped out the 4 GC batteries, as they were starting to show signs of weakness. This year I did the start battery, as it was also showing signs of weakness. Remember, these are all LA batteries, so cheapest to replace.

The most important aspect of this system is load control.
Your AC Fridges have to go. Then you can start to relax.
 
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I can tell you that when i next replace batteries it will be with carbon foam. By my calculations, the cost per amp is less than other options even though the initial outlay might be more.

Of hours see if reasonably priced and save lithium batteries are available by then, i might consider them.

Gordon
 
My thoughts on replacing batteries:
If I had to replace batteries today, I would not spend a lot of extra money on a technology that promised an extra long life. Assuming that the promises come true, battery technology is advancing so fast, and the price is dropping so fast, that anything purchased today will be hopelessly obsolete and grossly overpriced tomorrow. Instead, I would install lower priced batteries, that may only last 5 years, and then upgrade to something much better, and much cheaper.
 
koliver;463584 My boat came with a fridge that used excessive power. By replacing it with a 12 v unit said:
Why did the original use so much power? Was it larger? Frost-free? simply inefficient? Or...?

I'd have thought can't be all that much power loss just from using an inverter on an AC-only fridge... and wouldn't have expected simply eliminating an inverter by changing to a 12V unit would save all that much (2/3)... so would expect there was something else involved?

-Chris
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Ranger:

The original was a Norcold AC/DC.
The replacement was of the guts only, so all other variables were not in play. I still have the box, the computer fan behind, all the same insulation, etc.

The Norcold was actually an AC only fridge, with its own internal inverter, so that when on DC power, it had to power the inverter and the fridge, so consumed more than 12 amps, while running.

The replacement Danfoss DC unit consumes 2.7 amps when running (including the computer fan that is in the same circuit).

So actually the difference is more than 4 x better once I got rid of the AC fridge.

My Xantrex inverter, when running unloaded, consumes over 5 amps, so disciplining myself to leave it off except when needed also helped with battery management.

Friends have household fridges and get by, but they are leaving that 5 amp inverter draw on all of the time. If your fridge runs, on average, less than 1/2 of the time, then the extra inverter amperage for the off cycles alone uses another 60 amp hours every day. When the fridge is cycling on, the inverter continues to use another 60 amp hours a day, for an extra load of 120 AH/day that could be avoided, in addition to the inefficiencies of the AC fridge.
 
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Keith

My experience with our dual voltage refrigerator is similar. I just checked with 12 vs 110 volts and note an approximate 5 amp at 12V difference in power draw, favoring the 12v side.

That however is an instantaneous reading and to more accurately note the difference a full day or so draw down test would be required.
 
Dave - I suggest getting a hold of Bruce Schwab and talking with him directly. He doesn't just sell Firefly batts (also sells lithium batts), and his expertise is in boat electrical/charging/storage systems. If nothing else he will give you some valuable advice!

OceanPlanet Energy-Marine Energy Storage, Solar Power, Management

Daveo said:
Is this a dead thread? Hope not. Need to buy new batteries on my new boat. Have a weird mix. House bank totally fried comprised of a mix of types and sizes, 6 4D lead acid 1 4D AGM and 1 8D AGM. 8D AGM was once the main engine start battery and the 4D AGM is just loose in the engine room and blocking access to various things so I want it out. I want to revert to having a dedicated engine start battery so that leaves just the 6 4Ds for the house bank. But wait, those 6 4 Ds are split into three isolatable pairs and 4 of them are in 8D sized boxes. I'm told that mixing 4 8Ds and 2 4Ds would be a no no so, if that's true, seems like my best choices are, 1; 6 new AGM 4Ds, 2; 6 new Oasis G31 fireflys, I guess that should be fireflies?, or 3; mix 4 8D and 2 6D commodity lead acid batteries knowing it isn't a great install but they are cheap. Chargers are old, a generator or shore power supplies Trace inverter/charger, a 240 volt 50 Hertz Charles shore power euro-charger, and a 130 amp alternator on main engine. Two chargers have AGM settings but may not be customizable enough for the carbon foam batts. I am embarrassed to admit I have no idea how the current and voltage from the main engine alternator to the batteries is regulated. Anticipate that boat will be away from shore power and at anchor or mooring for extended periods of time. I won't want to be running generator enough to top up batteries and do not expect to be running main enough daily, or even weekly, to get batteries from 80% SOC to 100%. That argues for greater bank capacity but also suggests that Firefly may be more forgiving of abuse. Given all I have read I think same sized AGMs might be worst choice for me. What do you think? And thanks in advance for wading through all the details. dave
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koliver said:
Ranger:

The original was a Norcold AC/DC.
The replacement was of the guts only, so all other variables were not in play. I still have the box, the computer fan behind, all the same insulation, etc.

The Norcold was actually an AC only fridge, with its own internal inverter, so that when on DC power, it had to power the inverter and the fridge, so consumed more than 12 amps, while running.

The replacement Danfoss DC unit consumes 2.7 amps when running (including the computer fan that is in the same circuit).

So actually the difference is more than 4 x better once I got rid of the AC fridge.

My Xantrex inverter, when running unloaded, consumes over 5 amps, so disciplining myself to leave it off except when needed also helped with battery management.

Friends have household fridges and get by, but they are leaving that 5 amp inverter draw on all of the time. If your fridge runs, on average, less than 1/2 of the time, then the extra inverter amperage for the off cycles alone uses another 60 amp hours every day. When the fridge is cycling on, the inverter continues to use another 60 amp hours a day, for an extra load of 120 AH/day that could be avoided, in addition to the inefficiencies of the AC fridge.
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Sounds like you have some serious problems with your electrical system. My two door, 7 cu ft Norcold fridge consumes only 3.2A at 12V DC, and 0.4A at 120V AC. You didn't say which model of Xantrex inverter you have, but I note from the Inverter Comparison Chart in the WM catalogue, that there are no inverters with an idle current over 0.6A, and some are as low as 0.16A.
 
Spending big bucks for a super batt set is only worthwhile if they get used.

If you are casting off NOW for a 3-4 year adventure , they might be worth the pri$e.

If you are sitting dockside playing Bestitis , they are a waste of currency.
 
koliver said:
Ranger:

The original was a Norcold AC/DC.
The replacement was of the guts only, so all other variables were not in play. I still have the box, the computer fan behind, all the same insulation, etc.

The Norcold was actually an AC only fridge, with its own internal inverter, so that when on DC power, it had to power the inverter and the fridge, so consumed more than 12 amps, while running.

The replacement Danfoss DC unit consumes 2.7 amps when running (including the computer fan that is in the same circuit).

So actually the difference is more than 4 x better once I got rid of the AC fridge.
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Ah. Interesting. Almost sounds like an especially inefficient internal inverter? Or maybe going faulty, on its last legs at the time?

Our fridges are also AC/DC but work the other way, i.e., always on DC (Danfoss) with its own internal converter that comes into play when we feed it AC (shorepower or genset).

-Chris
 
"My experience with our dual voltage refrigerator is similar. I just checked with 12 vs 110 volts and note an approximate 5 amp at 12V difference in power draw, favoring the 12v side.

That however is an instantaneous reading and to more accurately note the difference a full day or so draw down test would be required."

Tom:

I did this almost 20 yrs ago. At the time I had a failure in the fridge, so I took it to the then local expert, "Freddy Freezer" at North Shore Refrigeration. He has retired and passed the mantle on to the present day owners of the shop, but they are still the go to guys for marine refrigeration in North Vancouver.

Fred convinced me I would be happier with a replacement of the dual voltage unit with a Danfoss 12v, and my own amperage reading bore that out. I was able to downsize my house batteries to about 1/2 what they had been, on that change alone, despite adding a second Danfoss DC freezer.

I know inverters are now more efficient, unloaded, than the Xantrex MS2000 that I put in in 2004, but mine still works as designed, so there will be no changing up.

The point I am trying to make is that load control is perhaps more important than the choice of batteries. If you get your load under close control, you will find your battery management is a much less stressful job, and may even lead to choices that were not possible before the load reduction.
 
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I'm not sure this is thread to start this discussion but it's relevant. So what size house bank do you have on the boat? We have gone to mostly led lighting, have a Sea Freeze super insulated fridge/ freezer with a 12 v compressor. In short have done most of energy saving upgrades that make economic sense... Even with these upgrades, the boat's house bank is about 1600 amp/hrs..
The battery bank is sized for our needs with a little overkill. Except for the initial expense is there any reason not to have as much battery capacity as physically possible?



fr
 
Except for the initial expense is there any reason not to have as much battery capacity as physically possible?

Nope,

Most cruisers can not get the house bank to 100+% every night , so the set slowly looses capacity.

In 2 or 3 years , even with the same loads , "oversized" may have shrunk to just right.
 
FF said:
Except for the initial expense is there any reason not to have as much battery capacity as physically possible?

Nope,

Most cruisers can not get the house bank to 100+% every night , so the set slowly looses capacity.

In 2 or 3 years , even with the same loads , "oversized" may have shrunk to just right.
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Very True!!! :thumb:
 
Moonfish said:
Hi all -

Last year we installed new Firefly Oasis carbon foam batteries. We made a video highlighting our experience with them so far:

Pacific NW Boater - PRODUCTS - TESTED: Carbon Foam Batteries

In an effort to dissuade some potential comments, here are a few disclaimers. We are not electricians. We do not sell or make any money off any sales of batteries. We needed a new house bank, so we researched available technologies and decided these were what we wanted. And we think other boaters will be very interested!

If anyone would like to find out more about these batteries you'll find a lot of good info, Nigel Calder's tests and technical specs at Bruce Schwab's website:

Firefly Oasis Battery - Carbon Foam AGM

If you recognize Bruce's name that's because he was a famous non-stop solo sailboat racer. He's since become an expert at what he calls "energy independence".
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Hey Darren

It's been a year since you started this thread, how about an update..:D Would like to hear what your experience over the past year has been and if they are holding up to the original claims.

Marty....................
 
MartySchwartz said:
Hey Darren

It's been a year since you started this thread, how about an update..:D Would like to hear what your experience over the past year has been and if they are holding up to the original claims.

Marty....................
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Yes, time for the two year report.
 
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