Survey Time

captwill · Jul 21, 2016

Two weeks to the survey of a 1980 Marine Trader (38'). The surveyor and a diesel mechanic have been scheduled. I have been advised that it will take all day, including dockside inspections, haul out, and sea trials. On the engine side the survey will include oil samples of both the main and generator. The owner will be on board to do the driving.... hopefully for the last time.

Any other suggestions to help with the survey would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Bill

GFC · Jul 21, 2016

Bill, I don't know your level of expertise with boats but when I bought our current boat it was my first venture into a "bigger" boat and also with diesels.

I met with both surveyors over breakfast and explained to them my inexperience and asked them to be very thorough and also to keep me apprised of things they found, as they found them, in case I wanted to ask some questions about what they found.

Both surveys went well, all of us had a good time on the sea trial except for the salesman. He was a little put off by some things we wanted to do with the boat (example: 10 minutes at WOT) but he went along with our requests.

In the end I bought the boat and felt more comfortable with it since I'd gone through it with the surveyors.

O C Diver · Jul 21, 2016

Add the transmission to the oil analysis list. Mine showed elevated levels of sodium. Gear cooler was going bad. Sodium was from raw water system (salt).

Ted

Besslb · Jul 21, 2016

In New Bern?? Who is your surveyor? What yard are you hauling at?

mattkab · Jul 21, 2016

GFC said:
He was a little put off by some things we wanted to do with the boat (example: 10 minutes at WOT) but he went along with our requests.

10 minutes at WOT? Isn't that a bit excessive? I don't think I've ever driven any boat at WOT for 10 full minutes.

I completely agree with bringing the engines up to full throttle, and keeping it there for long enough for any issues to become apparent. But after 2 or 3 minutes I would think it would be best for everyone involved to bring the throttle down to 80/85%.

No?

S41 · Jul 21, 2016

If you get a choice. After a fairly quick looking over the boat and engine by the surveyors, get your sea trial going. It may save you the haul out cost if something big and unknown shows up during the sea trial.

More than likely, your sea trial will be to the haul out yard, so that might be easy to do.

Good luck with your purchase!

78puget-trawler · Jul 21, 2016

When I sold my little MWB recently the buyers wanted a half hour at WOT!, because it was a Westerbeke they said. They got about 2 minutes.
And yes, sea trials first if possible, if something fails you can pass on the sale and if the owners want to haul out anyway its on them.

Phil Fill · Jul 21, 2016

A survey can be broken down into parts starting with a walk thru to evaluate is its worth a more detail survey and the engine and haul out. A sea trial is done after the surveys have been done.I had surveys that last less than 15 minutes. So a full day complete survey does not have to be done in one day. When we bought the Eagle it took several weeks..

Also do not use the broker sellers surveyors. They should be your surveyor that you trust.

78puget-trawler · Jul 21, 2016

Sea trials can be done at any time in the process. There is no hard and fast rule to this. It all depends on the logistics of each sale. In my recent case sea trials were done just after the in the water survey part, on the way to the yard, and the mech survey was done at that time as well. Then the boat was hauled, survey finished, boat blocked.

boatpoker · Jul 21, 2016

mattkab said:
10 minutes at WOT? Isn't that a bit excessive? I don't think I've ever driven any boat at WOT for 10 full minutes.

I completely agree with bringing the engines up to full throttle, and keeping it there for long enough for any issues to become apparent. But after 2 or 3 minutes I would think it would be best for everyone involved to bring the throttle down to 80/85%.

No?

I always request 10min. at full throttle. If the boat can't handle that, there is a problem. Once had an elbow leave the engine after about 6 minutes, The owner was less than pleased, the buyer was quite satisfied. The one that gets the most objection is my request for two minutes full throttle in reverse but again if the boat can't handle it, something is wrong.

On my first run of each season I run my boat full throttle for half an hour. If something is going to go I want it dealt with before my summer is ruined.

I prefer to do the survey first as that often provides clues as to what to watch during the sea trial.

markpierce · Jul 21, 2016

My NA engine has less than two-thirds the power of the turbo version. Why worry about WOT for not-at-extended time in the NA version? Running at 2200 RPM, 200 less than WOT of 2400 (2200 is my fast-cruise, hull speed), the engine is only working 72 percent.

Tom.B · Jul 21, 2016

mattkab said:
10 minutes at WOT? Isn't that a bit excessive? I don't think I've ever driven any boat at WOT for 10 full minutes.

No. We found a semi-clogged heat exchanger on our sea trial that CLEARLY needed cleaning and that the owner didn't know about. I want to know that if there was some reason to be at WOT (medical emergency or something) that the engines can handle it long enough to shave off precious seconds or minutes I might need.

I wouldn't know about WOT in reverse. To me WOT is WOT. The engine and tranny don't care what direction you are going.

Tom.B · Jul 21, 2016

captwill said:
Two weeks to the survey of a 1980 Marine Trader (38'). The surveyor and a diesel mechanic have been scheduled. I have been advised that it will take all day, including dockside inspections, haul out, and sea trials. On the engine side the survey will include oil samples of both the main and generator. The owner will be on board to do the driving.... hopefully for the last time.

Any other suggestions to help with the survey would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance

Bill

Can I ask this? Is there a particular reason to do an engine survey right off the bat? Are there any red flags that made you decide to do one before the purchase survey? If I might suggest... Get through Eberly's (I assume) regular survey. He will give your engine a run through of the basics (and run it at WOT until the temp levels off or it overheats

). If he sees something, he will tell you. Also, before you get to the survey, ask the seller if you can take oil samples yourself. Goto Northern Tool and buy a few cheap vac pumps (I used 5). Take the samples to Gregory Poole in Raleigh (or give them to me, I will be happy to take them for you) and let them do a sample test for about $8 each. Their lab is onsite and you will have the results in a matter of hours. THEN, if something shows up, give Deaton's or Coastal Diesel a call for a full engine survey.

I was quoted $800-ish per motor and was told by the people I was going to hire to do the engine-only survey, that unless there appears to be a reason to do one and you know the engine has had regular service, to just do an oil test and see what it says first. Otherwise, while they would take my money if I really wanted to give it to him, it would be a bit of a waste. Especially on a low-hour boat. This isn't a bulldozer with tens-of-thousands of hours in a dirt hole. Boat engines live a life of luxury compared to those.

Now... that said... I knew, and talked to at great length, the people that have serviced that motor for the previous owner before I bought it. I also talked to several experts on that particular engine, so I knew enough to make my own decision on the purchase. All I am saying is that you should think hard about just getting an engine survey by default. But hey... If you can afford it. It's your gig.

boatpoker · Jul 21, 2016

Tom.B said:
I wouldn't know about WOT in reverse. To me WOT is WOT. The engine and tranny don't care what direction you are going.

The rudders, rudder stuffing boxes, tie rod, gear/shaft flanges and tabs do.

boatpoker · Jul 21, 2016

Tom.B said:
Can I ask this? Is there a particular reason to do an engine survey right off the bat? Are there any red flags that made you decide to do one before the purchase survey? If I might suggest... Get through Eberly's (I assume) regular survey. He will give your engine a run through of the basics (and run it at WOT until the temp levels off or it overheats ). If he sees something, he will tell you. Also, before you get to the survey, ask the seller if you can take oil samples yourself. Goto Northern Tool and buy a few cheap vac pumps (I used 5). Take the samples to Gregory Poole in Raleigh (or give them to me, I will be happy to take them for you) and let them do a sample test for about $8 each. Their lab is onsite and you will have the results in a matter of hours. THEN, if something shows up, give Deaton's or Coastal Diesel a call for a full engine survey.

I was quoted $800-ish per motor and was told by the people I was going to hire to do the engine-only survey, that unless there appears to be a reason to do one and you know the engine has had regular service, to just do an oil test and see what it says first. Otherwise, while they would take my money if I really wanted to give it to him, it would be a bit of a waste. Especially on a low-hour boat. This isn't a bulldozer with tens-of-thousands of hours in a dirt hole. Boat engines live a life of luxury compared to those.

Now... that said... I knew, and talked to at great length, the people that have serviced that motor for the previous owner before I bought it. I also talked to several experts on that particular engine, so I knew enough to make my own decision on the purchase. All I am saying is that you should think hard about just getting an engine survey by default. But hey... If you can afford it. It's your gig.

+2

sunchaser · Jul 21, 2016

boatpoker said:
The rudders, rudder stuffing boxes, tie rod, gear/shaft flanges and tabs do.

Full throttle in reverse may well swamp the vessel. Had a very nice sport fisher some years ago and anything above 1/4 throttle in reverse overtopped the transom. Can't see the rationale for full reverse throttle. Here is one owner that would remove the surveyor requesting this activity.

boatpoker · Jul 22, 2016

sunchaser said:
Full throttle in reverse may well swamp the vessel. Had a very nice sport fisher some years ago and anything above 1/4 throttle in reverse overtopped the transom. Can't see the rationale for full reverse throttle. Here is one owner that would remove the surveyor requesting this activity.

Guess you won't be hiring me for your next purchase

sunchaser · Jul 22, 2016

boatpoker said:
Guess you won't be hiring me for your next purchase

Selling vs buying are two different things. Of course I'd hire you, to scare the owner into submission as his cockpit fills up.

captwill · Jul 22, 2016

Thank you all for all the great advice.

Besslb - Yes in New Bern. The surveyor is Rob Eberly. Walter Hardy is doing the engine survey. We will haul out at Bridgeton.

Tom B - Thank you for the offer. Yes Rob Eberly is doing the survey. I approached him about the engine survey and he suggested it would be money well spent, suggested three mechanics and I chose one of the three. Oil sampling will be part of the survey. The engine surveys for the main and generator is substantially less than the $800/engine.

O C Driver - I will add the transmission oil to the samples

boatpoker - All sound advice

Again thank you all! With the added suggestions and the discussions I have had to date, I think we have most of the bases covered.

Brgds/Bill

dhays · Jul 22, 2016

One piece of advice that the broker gave me when I bought my boat was to bring a set of zincs to the survey and take the opportunity to replace then at the haul out. At that point you have done the sea trial, the engine mechanic has been crawling around the engine, so if everything is fine to that point then it gives you a great chance to put new zincs on the boat when it is hauled anyway. If you don't end up buying the boat, then it is a small cost. If you do buy it, it can be a huge savings.

boatpoker · Jul 22, 2016

dhays said:
One piece of advice that the broker gave me when I bought my boat was to bring a set of zincs to the survey and take the opportunity to replace then at the haul out. At that point you have done the sea trial, the engine mechanic has been crawling around the engine, so if everything is fine to that point then it gives you a great chance to put new zincs on the boat when it is hauled anyway. If you don't end up buying the boat, then it is a small cost. If you do buy it, it can be a huge savings.

+2 Smart !
Thanks for posting that.

captwill · Jul 22, 2016

dhays - that is a great suggestion! Thank you

Tom.B · Jul 22, 2016

dhays said:
One piece of advice that the broker gave me when I bought my boat was to bring a set of zincs to the survey and take the opportunity to replace then at the haul out. At that point you have done the sea trial, the engine mechanic has been crawling around the engine, so if everything is fine to that point then it gives you a great chance to put new zincs on the boat when it is hauled anyway. If you don't end up buying the boat, then it is a small cost. If you do buy it, it can be a huge savings.

Yep... I did the same. The yard will have them. I just payed for them regardless of if we ended up buying it or not.

Besslb · Jul 22, 2016

Bridgeton Boatworks is a great yard, easy approach, and new lift slip. Rob is top notch, none better. Sellers generally hate him, buyers love him. We have used him on both sides and he is fair and honest. You are in good hands. We are in the area almost every weekend, if you need anything, even a ride to the airport, let us know....we can probably help.

captwill · Jul 23, 2016

Bessib - Thank you. It is encouraging to hear that I choose the right surveyor. I have heard nothing but the best about him. Thanks for the offer of a ride. I actually live in Trent Woods, but work in Philadelphia. Long story, maybe I can tell you about it sometime in the future over a cocktail. I will be in NC full time next April when I retire.

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