Choosing electronics...
- Thread starter Bruce B
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We have had electronics preferences and circumstances led to brands we didn't think we'd like and been very pleased. I think often it's familiarity. If you use the Cmaps a while leading up to the planned change, you may find by the time you get there, you've decided to save the money. They all are pretty compatible when what they do, just very different in how they do it. Once you've been exposed to a couple or three, then it just isn't a huge issue any more. Now, like you, I think their advertising is misleading.
Just to be clear, it is Furuno's advertising you are pointing to? I'm just curious as we haven't decided on electronics yet. I'm just trying to create a mental database to use at the boat shows when I do more research this fall.
Many thanks,
Bruce
ranger58sb
Guru
Interesting. We have the older NAVNet3 system (not Touch) and don't seem to have the same problems.
Partly because if we put it into Course Up mode (or Head Up, or North Up) it stays there until/unless we change it.
Partly because I'm fine with either NOAA or CMap vector charts. On the plotter, we just use the (free) NOAA S57s around here when select vector charts, although we have CMap charts on the tablets. (Actually, we almost always use the NOAA raster charts instead, though.) No wobble, in any of those modes.
-Chris
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They aren't as transparent as I'd like to see regarding Navionics. I still like their product, just they should be clear and explain why.
Trawlerdude
Newbie
I don't see how your personal preference for one chart set vs another rises to the level of publicly bashing the product both on this forum as well as the manufacturer's forum.
Perhaps you should have done more homework before installing not one but two MFD's that are both contrary to your noted chart set preference.
Do you have a relationship with the manufacturer?
I have no idea who either of these people are but I actually believe the point Trawlerdude made is interesting.
We have all purchased "things" that don't live up to our expectations, haven't we? Whenever I spend a good amount of money on something, I try to do whatever I can to learn about it before I commit. This post is a perfect example. I'm trying my best to learn what I can about the various products before I plunk down our money.
If I purchase a red car with an automatic it is silly for me to complain about lack of a manual gearbox...at least it seems that way to me.
My run with Raymarine is a different example of being disappointed. I'd owned the companies products before. I liked the basic functionality and I'd had good experience with their customer service. Fast forward 8 years, three course computers, 2 drive replacements, 2 radars, a failed set of plotters and way, way, way more time on the phone waiting for support later and I have a very different reason to be unhappy. Once again, for the record, our current Raymarine gear and support under Flir's watch is working perfectly and has demonstrated none of the strange behavior of the earlier Ray gear, I'm sure it is fine. I'm just not going to jump back into that bed again.
As to the whole Navionics vs CMap vs ?? I don't know how to consider that information. Again, having lived with Navionics vector charts for a bunch of years I am familiar with this component. I've found enough dangerous chart mistakes in vector charts that I have a healthy respect for paper charts! I like my chart plotters to be accurate first, I'll find marinas and services on my own.
I really have no idea what equipment we will end up with yet. We will head to the Annapolis boat show this fall to do research and decide then. I will certainly be asking questions I wouldn't have known to ask as a result of this thread.
For that I am grateful!
Bruce
Fletcher500
Guru
The Internet is great for learning about items such as boat electronics from other users.
The folks on this group appear to be long-range cruisers and heavy users of their radar, so I do follow most people's comments fairly closely as I am also Considering a major electronics upgrade.
I am on several other forms, and Have witnessed major bashing from people who barely know how to run a radar and the nuances involved. That is unfair to the manufacturer.
The folks on this group appear to be long-range cruisers and heavy users of their radar, so I do follow most people's comments fairly closely as I am also Considering a major electronics upgrade.
I am on several other forms, and Have witnessed major bashing from people who barely know how to run a radar and the nuances involved. That is unfair to the manufacturer.
Trawlerdude
Newbie
I have no relationship with the manufacturer other than owning the same model unit being bashed over one individual's misconceptions in various online venues including the manufacturers' support forum. The moderators of that forum are very helpful and don't deserve the abuse. Those of us who performed significant research and installed the units with accordant expectations also don't deserve the distraction to the moderators.
With all due respect, none of us are here to address what is going on with the moderators of another forum. Per your statement, he's bashing there and here and you're following him here to bash him. You just joined and all you've posted is to bash him.
Here, he's simply expressed an opinion. I see nothing he said here that was unreasonable. I understand his point, although don't agree with it. Most have preferences based on what they are use to. There is no such thing as a "best electronics." It's all about preferences. I've used Transas, Maxsea, Furuno, Garmin and to a lesser extent Raymarine. I haven't used Simrad. Chose not to even though the builder recommended it. I've found them all to have quality products today and each has had their little issues at various times. If he's upset because Furuno doesn't use Navionics, then so be it. Then after being so, just get over it. Buy something else next time or adjust to what you have. As the topic of the thread is "Choosing Electronics" I would expect to see some praise and negative throughout. Often our individual opinions are skewed by one experience and sometimes even about what we were told and therefore chose against a brand. The value here is that we get such a variety of opinions including those feeling very strongly pro and con. This is an area of constant change and whoever is "best" today will probably not be six months from now.
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CPseudonym
Moderator Emeritus
Then stop cyberstalking the other newbie and at least pretend you desire to become a respected member of this online community. Post an introductory post like everyone else typically does, share your experience and offer your "opinions" on a range of subjects and not people. Most of us are intelligent enough to draw our own conclusions about other contributors.
Trust me, the 800 lb gorilla of the marine electronic industry doesn't need a knight in shining armor to defend their honor. There's more than enough intelligent contributors here willing to call folks out on their biases.
Bigsalmonfish
Senior Member
Looked at this thread in detail. I am looking at upgrading my plotting system. Currently run a 20 year old version of Nobeltec and really like it. Unfortunately the gps it is attached to is becoming unreliable. I installed CE on the other computer and am running it on the second monitor. So far some of the CE I like, but there are enough bad user interfaces I don't like. Will the new version of MaxSea TZ interface with my Simrad AP20 as the old version of Nobeltec does? Anything I am missing?
So,
After being absolutely certain that we where going to install Furuno electronics we (I) decided instead to go with Garmin.
The decision is made!
We will have a pair of 17" Garmin 8617 flush mounted displays in the pilot house along with a Garmin GHC pilot control and a Garmin 20 GMI display. The flybridge will utilize a Garmin 7412 12" display and a second GHC pilot control.
A GMR Fantom 24 radar with the Doppler effect color coded threat assessment.
We chose a Garmin AIS transponder, a Garmin black box VHF radio with control mics in flybridge and pilothouse, a GMI wind bundle with a boat speed paddle wheel to determine true wind and Garmin side view sonar/fishfinder transducers.
This boat will have the slickest instrumentation I have ever used!
Can't wait...
Bruce
After being absolutely certain that we where going to install Furuno electronics we (I) decided instead to go with Garmin.
The decision is made!
We will have a pair of 17" Garmin 8617 flush mounted displays in the pilot house along with a Garmin GHC pilot control and a Garmin 20 GMI display. The flybridge will utilize a Garmin 7412 12" display and a second GHC pilot control.
A GMR Fantom 24 radar with the Doppler effect color coded threat assessment.
We chose a Garmin AIS transponder, a Garmin black box VHF radio with control mics in flybridge and pilothouse, a GMI wind bundle with a boat speed paddle wheel to determine true wind and Garmin side view sonar/fishfinder transducers.
This boat will have the slickest instrumentation I have ever used!
Can't wait...
Bruce
twistedtree
Guru
Nice. Congratulations. It sounds like things are coming together nicely.
We have very similar on the Sunseeker and we were quite upset Furuno wasn't an option from them. We were even thinking we might find ourselves removing the Garmin for Furuno if we didn't like it. However, we are extremely pleased with the Garmin package. Could not be happier with an electronics package.
It was an interesting exercise to work through.
I wanted Furuno gear from the beginning and although I wanted to believe that I was objectively searching the field, I really was not.
Every person in the industry that I asked suggested that I consider a Garmin system and I'd look at their website and say "Furuno"!
In the end, it was a long conversation with a dealer who sold both systems who really helped me decide. He talked about support, backward compatibility vs age, general reliability and finally features of both brands.
Finally, I decided that Garmin offered the features we wanted...
Now I'm spending evenings reading manuals and trying to acquaint myself with the system.
Fun!
Bruce
sunchaser
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Bruce B
Will your new Garmin setup have an independent laptop charting system that can accept and transmit data from/to Garmin? If so, which charting system?
An aside and IMHO, the quality of the install and the knowledge of the the instrument tech can make or break a system - no matter the logo on the units. That said, some very sophisticated users such as twisted tree will test a brand's capabilities to perform all functions as advertised, finding glitches along the way that many us simpletons would otherwise never know about.
My instrument upgrades over the years have largely been the result of failure of existing units - a Raymarine radar and Simrad AP. Both went out in the worst of places. In both cases Furuno gear went in with no further troubles, yet that is.
Will your new Garmin setup have an independent laptop charting system that can accept and transmit data from/to Garmin? If so, which charting system?
An aside and IMHO, the quality of the install and the knowledge of the the instrument tech can make or break a system - no matter the logo on the units. That said, some very sophisticated users such as twisted tree will test a brand's capabilities to perform all functions as advertised, finding glitches along the way that many us simpletons would otherwise never know about.
My instrument upgrades over the years have largely been the result of failure of existing units - a Raymarine radar and Simrad AP. Both went out in the worst of places. In both cases Furuno gear went in with no further troubles, yet that is.
Garmin does have an app that allows for transfer of data to and from the plotters. While we do travel with laptops, we tend to stay on the Apple side of things. After almost 20 years of having no choice but to run Windows equipment in my business, I have a healthy disdain for their products. I only use Windows regularly for my amateur radio hobby and that is Windows 10. It works fine and is nicely integrated into my Mac Pro with Parallels...
So, I haven't even looked at whether Garmin offers a PC based plotter...
As for the technician, I fully agree! Normally I install these systems myself. I love the projects and I have no need to make a buck doing it so I simply spend a lot of time researching and then installing. It makes no difference to me if I spend a week doing what a professional does in a day or two. My work is always clean and neat and if things go wrong, I know where to begin...
This time, we will be taking delivery on the opposite side of the continent and I really don't want to take the time to install a new system so far from my home and all of my normal support systems. Thus I have hired a very highly recommended tech to do the installation. I have spoken to him and he and I are on the same page... I believe we will be good.
Funny you should mention the subject of using a systems capabilities, my wife and I where discussing this last night.
We, like most people, find and learn to use those features that we need or want.
Those features that are too confusing or that don't work we ignore.
I like to compare these systems to the benchmarks of Apple vs Windows, maybe Windows of 6 or 8 years ago more accurately. If the software is well written and well supported, I will happily trade away some capability...
I simply want things to work! I will read a manual and even call tech support if I need to but in the end, it has to work. Easily, repeatedly and for a long time.
I really, really wanted Furuno gear on this boat. We have had Raymarine gear for about 20 years on previous boats and it was time for a change. I looked at Furuno, Garmin and Simrad. All companies (including Raymarine) make gear that performs along similar lines. I had a distrust of Raymarine based on too many failures in the past, a general dislike of Garmin (no idea where this comes from!) an admiration of Simrad and a true respect for Furuno.
As I began this research, I spoke to a few installers who I know personally and got clear and loud signals about their preferences. Garmin is universally held in high regard by these people. I spoke to a few engineers to, one of them works for Raymarine and wanted to understand my position about that company. He felt that Ray was well beyond the issues we had suffered but understood my feelings. He did verify that the gear failures we had experienced were essentially
"known issues" of the gear involved, all out of production now by the way.
He explained the electronics industry to me in terms of history of the companies, the mergers and acquisitions, the combining of technologies etc., all very, very, interesting. He was the single person who did not have good things to say about Garmin and he freely admitted that this was based on his corporate bias...
In the end I believe that like anything else, you can get unlucky with any piece of electronic gear. I also believe that for the most part most of the gear available today is pretty comparable in terms of features. There are differences though and Garmin has some pretty cool things happening. The pilot, the sonar and the plotter software have features that were enticing. They reportedly have good reliability and their backward compatibility is very, very good. That speaks well for the future ability to change a piece out if we elect to.
We will see how well this all works out!
Bruce
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danderer
Guru
I only know Garmin from the aviation world where I had excellent luck with them--they became my go-to vendor.
On the marine side it is my impression that they have/had a problem with long-term support. I seem to recall seeing posts about not being able to get map (or was it software?) upgrades for units more than a few years old. If true that would be an absolute show-stopper for me.
Am I remembering correctly? If so is that still the case with their products?
[Just for comparison, I recently had my 10 year old plotter repaired by Raymarine and can still get new charts for it from Navionics. Then again Raymarine had no ability to work on my similarly-ancient AP.]
Donsan
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The Garmin product in question was a GPSMAP 2010C. That particular model had been around since 2001. In the electronics world, 15 years is multiple generations. The current GPSMAPs are the 7000/8000 series so you are talking about a product 5-6 generations out of date. We had a GPSMAP 2010C on our Taiwanese Tub and it still worked fine without ever being repaired. If we had kept the TT, I would have replaced it with a 7000 series GPSMAP which has a ton of enhanced features and comes with preloaded maps, internet map updating, NMEA 2000, wifi, better resolution and many other things. It doesn't seem appropriate to ask for support of a electronics product this old where the newer versions are so much better. And BTW, the Furuno radar which was installed on the boat in roughly the same timeframe did not work.
Furuno definitely has the best reputation in terms of long term support. I am aware of issues with the screens delaminating on their TZT plotters though. Yes, I have read about issues with all of the companies.
In the end, it is a bit of a leap of faith isn't it?
Bruce
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ranger58sb
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Fair point, relative to software and maintenance... but I suspect I'd be irritated if just updated CHARTS were no longer available on units we installed whenever.
In the grand scheme of things, there are a few newer bells and whistles I could get if we replaced our 2009 plotter... but if the thing is still working and I can still get updated charts "in the year 2525," I'll likely still be using it then... bells and whistles (unlike charts) being not really a serious driver in our world.
Actual delamination?
We once discovered an issue with the screen on our fishfinder. Started to get all sorts of "scratches" in the display... turned out to be brought on by improper screen-cleaning products used by the cleaning crew. (And they received some serious "counseling" about that.)
But it also turned out to be just a coating, and once the whole coating was cleaned off (using those same improper cleaning products... or maybe it was rubbing alcohol...) the screen looks like new again. Can't remember what the coating was supposed to do, in the first place...
-Chris
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In the case of the GPSMAP 2010C, there apparently was a corporate decision to change the data card format starting in 2006. Hopefully, it is a one off situation. I have not heard of any issues with the products and map format since 2006 but certainly there are boaters who have the older format chartplotters and are not happy with what went down. Microsoft does the same type of thing with their older products and so does Apple but the customer typically pays $100-150 for Windows and maybe $700 for an iPad instead of $2-3K for a chartplotter. In today's world, you just have to expect technological obsolescence.
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ranger58sb
Guru
Sure, I get that. Occasional IT manager in previous life, etc.
But I've still got a 1998 laptop downstairs that runs Win 98 and whatever current version of Office was at the time... like a champ.
Yes, no updates, yes lots of stuff it can't do that modern systems can... but OTOH, it still does what it was originally purchased to do.
Think I'd have called foul on the manager that made that decision; a format conversion safety net likely wouldn't have been difficult or expensive... even something as simple as Garmin doing the conversion, and offering properly-formatted downloads (for the old unit) to the few users left hanging in the wind. (Admittedly just guessing here, without knowledge of the actual units...)
-Chris
I believe that the issue has something to do with the way Furuno attaches the glass to the unit. Apparently the bonding agent fails and the unit has to be returned for either replacement or repair.
Your story of the screen cleaner made me laugh, been there and done that too!
Bruce
You sound like the other IT people I know!
I just gave away a nice little XP Lenovo T-60 laptop/tablet that was 10 years old.
That was a great little device and it too still worked but...just not that well in 2016.
My 6 year old MacBook Pro however is great! I upgraded the hard drive to a Solid state type 3 years ago and its a little rocket!
I'll continue to use it until it is no longer supported.
Bruce
sunchaser
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My chart plotter experience whether Garmin, Raymarine or Furuno is that the plotters are lazy and time consuming as compared to a laptop based charting program like CE or Trident or XYZ. Either Windows or Mac can be used in fact one of my friends has a Mac that has Windows 10 installed and can run Trident on either.
So my earlier question is can the Garmin AP follow the course laid out on the laptop using non Garmin software? That is a must for any hard wired charting system IMHO. CE is coming out with some new software that should greatly ease data inputs into a laptop based system. There may well be more fun stuff to consider than Furuno vs Garmin boxed products.
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