AMI Kids Bayliner 5288

I want to share my recent experience with AMI Kids organization while trying to lease one of their boats, a Bayliner 5288. On the surface she looked very good. I read their listing carefully and requested more pictures from the agent working for United Yacht Sales. The pictures showed what appeared to be a nice boat. The boat through pictures and written description was presented as having an inverter, a just completed "1000 hour MAN service" by an authorized MAN dealer, it was also stated that the next service due was at 2000 hours. Well after going through survey several discrepancies began to appear.
1) Due to my broker having prior knowledge of this boat he informed me that he thought a rudder had to be replaced on this boat.
2) After several questions and several dodges they finally admitted that the boat had been grounded not once but twice during delivery and damaged the rudder and props. This damage required the props to have to be reconditioned twice (after each grounding) and the rudder welded the first time and replaced the second time. Would this have been revealed if I hadn't asked?
3) The inverter clearly shown in the electrical panel pictures was missing.
4) The engines failed to reach required RPM during seatrial with a clean bottom at WOT. Something that should have been verified as part of the 1000 hour certified MAN service. One engine overheated. Another red flag. If the entire cooling system was just rebuilt why should we be overheating? Upon further investigation by me, to the authorized dealer who did this, it was read to me from the shop notes that the impellers in the raw water pumps were not replaced.( high dollar item, $2800-$4500) The dealer recommended replacement but the customer declined. So really this was not a full 1000 hour service. Fraud, misrepresentation, omission?
5) Upon confronting the seller he said he didn't know how old the impellers were but would change the ones in the overheating engine. That's great but what about the other engine?
6) The hours noted during the 1000 hour service on the shop invoice in Virginia was approx 752 port and 854 starboard. When the props got reworked in Florida engine hours were noted as 764 port and 956 starboard. (These hours are approximate I may be off a little) So it appears that the boat ran from Va. to Fl. on one engine. Upon questioning they said that was not the case, must be a malfunctioning tach, yet on seatrial they all worked. When I asked for the delivery captains log they said he didn't keep one.
7) AMI kids and its representatives continue to tell me that MAN rpm of 2200-2250 is not required and won't test these parameters per MAN recommendations with a full load of fuel and water. The boat can not make 2200 rpm with less than full fuel and water yet they insist this is "acceptable" rpm values.
8) They refuse to adjust the price for the missing inverter.
9) We have been trying to lease this boat and work out the details for over a month.

I'm aprox. $3500 into what I was lead to believe was a good boat and now they're trying to rush me into a decision by not granting an extension and give me only 3 days to get back to Fl. for me to verify any of their repairs. Approach this 5288 with caution.

This may be a great organization but my experience has been otherwise. Maybe not out and out lies but certainly not the whole truth, especially if you don't ask the right questions. I'd be very careful buying, leasing and or donating a boat to an organization run this way.

If you look at that listing it no longer says just completed a 1000 hour service by MAN diesel as it did when I got involved. Now it says a major service by a MAN dealer. This outfit AMI kids , United Yacht Sales, and the listing agent have been about as transparent as a lead safe about this boat. Nothing has been easy. Last I heard from them we still had one engine overheating, the other had a possible cracked turbo, neither could make required RPM. Neither had the raw water impellers changed. All this was supposed to get fixed. Then I was supposed to lease the boat. No response to my last emails and request. When we confronted them about this they changed the listing to not say what it did when I got involved. The listing is misleading as a lot of stuff has not been done as required by MAN. Additionally the boat had over 35 items that were deficient on the survey. New updated listing and still no mention of 2 groundings which resulted in damage. www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/Bayliner-5...-States#.V45Gf_P2aM8

mischief440 said:

I want to share my recent experience with AMI Kids organization while trying to lease one of their boats, a Bayliner 5288. On the surface she looked very good. I read their listing carefully and requested more pictures. The pictures showed what appeared to be a nice boat. The boat through pictures and written description was presented as having an inverter, a just completed "1000 hour MAN service" by an authorized MAN dealer, it was also stated that the next service due was at 2000 hours. Well after going through survey several discrepancies began to appear.
1) Due to my broker having prior knowledge of this boat he informed me that he thought a rudder had to be replaced on this boat.
2) After several questions and several dodges they finally admitted that the boat had been grounded not once but twice during delivery and damaged the rudder and props. This damage required the props to have to be reconditioned twice (after each grounding) and the rudder welded the first time and replaced the second time. Would this have been revealed if I hadn't asked?
3) The inverter clearly shown in the electrical panel pictures was missing.
4) The engines failed to reach required RPM during seatrial with a clean bottom at WOT. Something that should have been verified as part of the 1000 hour certified MAN service. One engine overheated. Another red flag. If the entire cooling system was just rebuilt why should we be overheating? Upon further investigation by me, to the authorized dealer who did this, it was read to me from the shop notes that the impellers in the raw water pumps were not replaced.( high dollar item, $2800-$4500) The dealer recommended replacement but the customer declined. So really this was not a full 1000 hour service. Fraud, misrepresentation, omission?
5) Upon confronting the seller he said he didn't know how old the impellers were but would change the ones in the overheating engine. That's great but what about the other engine?
6) The hours noted during the 1000 hour service on the shop invoice in Virginia was approx 752 port and 854 starboard. When the props got reworked in Florida engine hours were noted as 764 port and 956 starboard. (These hours are approximate I may be off a little) So it appears that the boat ran from Va. to Fl. on one engine. Upon questioning they said that was not the case, must be a malfunctioning tach, yet on seatrial they all worked. When I asked for the delivery captains log they said he didn't keep one.
7) AMI kids and its representatives continue to tell me that MAN rpm of 2200-2250 is not required and won't test these parameters per MAN recommendations with a full load of fuel and water. The boat can not make 2200 rpm with less than full fuel and water yet they insist this is "acceptable" rpm values.
8) They refuse to adjust the price for the missing inverter.
9) We have been trying to lease this boat and work out the details for over a month.

I'm aprox. $3500 into what I was lead to believe was a good boat and now they're trying to rush me into a decision by not granting an extension and give me only 3 days to get back to Fl. for me to verify any of their repairs. Approach this 5288 with caution.

This may be a great organization but my experience has been otherwise. Maybe not out and out lies but certainly not the whole truth, especially if you don't ask the right questions. I'd be very careful buying, leasing and or donating a boat to an organization run this way.

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Sorry things didn't work out for you. Lots of stories here about boats for sale that didn't live up to the sales listing. Something is very wrong with that price for raw water pump impellers. Don't think the whole pump installed costs anywhere near that much.

Ted

And you where getting ready to "lease" this boat that failed survey so naturally you create an account and that's your come out post??? Boo-hooo, failed surveys suck but are part of the game.

You're pretty good at dragging the other party through the mud by name so why don't you post your full name and address instead of hiding in the shadow of anonymity?

I thought it was crazy high myself but these are MAN Engines. I got that quote from a MAN dealer in writing. $1400/raw water pump times 2 engines $2800. If the Pumps needed rebuilding (seals) etc. then it was $4500 total.

Just out of curiosity how does a boat lease work? Is is like a car lease where you get it for a certain number of years and just pay depreciation monthly? How is maintenance handled? When you turn the boat in does it have to pass an inspection of sorts or can you lease the bayliner - run it up to 1999 hours and then turn it back in while avoiding the 2k hours service or is there a limit on annunal hours?

devorenm said:

Just out of curiosity how does a boat lease work? Is is like a car lease where you get it for a certain number of years and just pay depreciation monthly? How is maintenance handled? When you turn the boat in does it have to pass an inspection of sorts or can you lease the bayliner - run it up to 1999 hours and then turn it back in while avoiding the 2k hours service or is there a limit on annunal hours?

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Whats a MAN engine?

Impeller for 1400? Insanely high price for something that should be changed every season... Have you done your homework?

Not dragging anybody through the mud. Just posting my experience. I've had failed surveys before , yes its part of the game. But this was not just a failed survey. Major important things were left out, promised and or not delivered. If the first listing was not misleading than why did they take it down. This posting is to make others aware. Save them the headaches I had or at least make them aware. The internet and social media is designed to convey information. Thats all I'm doing. If there was a guy before me and he had posted maybe I'd have been spared my trouble,or at least I would have went in with my radar up an questions prepared.

Most of the cost for the impellers is labor from what I'm told.

All those problems and you still want to own it

Is your name Forrest ?

Lease was supposed to be structured as follows: 35% of agreed price upfront , 1%/month for 36 months, than at the end if you want to purchase you pay the remaining 29%. No limit on hours and you pay all maintanence. If you choose not to purchase then you give the boat back to them.

mischief440 said:

I've had failed surveys before , yes its part of the game. But this was not just a failed survey.

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You sure don't sound like you've "had failed surveys before". Because if you did you never learned the lessons you should have. Had you walked aboard the boat you should have noticed the missing inverter to start with.

And how does a boat lease work anyway? Especially on an old boat? Sounds sketchy to me.

"I thought it was crazy high myself but these are MAN Engines. I got that quote from a MAN dealer in writing. $1400/raw water pump times 2 engines $2800. If the Pumps needed rebuilding (seals) etc. then it was $4500 total. "


Hello mischief440 - similar to your 6 new posts on the Baylinerownersclub just today you can find a wealth of information on how to get these MAN water pumps in great shape for much less money. You will need to spend some time on the site searching for the answers to these questions rather than posting the problems.
There is a wealth of information on the MAN engines as well as all the typical issues and solutions with the 52 Bayliner on the BOC.

devorenm said:

Just out of curiosity how does a boat lease work? Is is like a car lease where you get it for a certain number of years and just pay depreciation monthly? How is maintenance handled? When you turn the boat in does it have to pass an inspection of sorts or can you lease the bayliner - run it up to 1999 hours and then turn it back in while avoiding the 2k hours service or is there a limit on annunal hours?

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I believe these lease to buy arrangements are common ways for non-profit organizations to sell donated items earlier than the minimum period they are required to hold onto it before selling it. It is a legit and legal way to meet the tax laws. That said, many donated boats were difficult to sell outright for some reason or another, it isn't the first choice of getting rid of a boat. Pretty typical for boats with extensive needed repairs or just plain undesirable. Custom racing yachts get donated a lot because today's $5M line honors winner is old news within 5 years it may not be worth the cost of new sails, so it gets donated to a college.

I noticed the missing inverter and the cracked rub rail and the leaking water pump. After traveling to Fl. from La. and having the surveyor there I'm not going to cancel the survey for a missing inverter and cracked rub rail. I'm willing to let the inverter slide, the point is the misrepresentation, not my surveying skills. The real point is the misleading information on the high dollar MAN 1000 hour service. The real point is one engine is overheating after a supposed MAN 1000 hour service on the cooling system. Those are deal breakers and weren't revealed until after haul out and seatrial. The point is not the condition of the boat, the point is it was not represented accurately. The 1000 MAN service is a very big deal and quite expensive and is what drove me to this boat because I thought it was done completely. The reason people donate these boats to charity is because they can't afford to do the 1000 hour service. The Charity gets the boat for FREE so now they can afford to do the 1000 hour service correctly and fully and still make a profit.

I find this entire thread and situation very strange. I hate to sound cynical but most cars and boats donated to organizations are in far from perfect condition. Then the agent you're dealing with informs you of the rudder situation which you were able to find out about in advance of the survey. You were aware of the inverter and rub rail issues prior to survey. A substantial difference in hours on the two engines was there regardless of the other information you found. You say you're aware of boats flunking surveys but then seem surprised by this one. And after all those things you're still interested in the lease and the engines not turning full RPM, one overheating, etc. Could you explain why?

You used the word "fraud" and there was no fraud. Incorrect information, yes, but not from the seller, I'd guess, the non-profit. I don't know who was giving you the bad information. But it's a donated boat and so the seller's information is limited.

Surveys are even more valuable when used to avoid a bad decision than when one buys. I'm not real sure what the purpose of your post was. It wasn't just to share an experience but seemed more to point out the organization, the selling broker, and this boat. If we posted every boat that fails survey here, there would be a huge forum just from that. I know people who have been through five or six failed surveys.

mischief440 you only bacame a member here (7 posts) to point out the organization, the selling broker, and this boat?

Gdavid said:

I believe these lease to buy arrangements are common ways for non-profit organizations to sell donated items earlier than the minimum period they are required to hold onto it before selling it. It is a legit and legal way to meet the tax laws. That said, many donated boats were difficult to sell outright for some reason or another, it isn't the first choice of getting rid of a boat. Pretty typical for boats with extensive needed repairs or just plain undesirable...

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If the seller says the boat engines have undergone a specific(apparently expensive) MAN 1000 hour service, and they have not, that is a serious misrepresentation, IMO.
A problem with donated boats is the seller never owned it except as a donation and knows very little about it. But, to then "ad lib", to put it mildly, on service history is not good. Especially when the buyer is effectively helping the charity, as well, on his own account, probably hoping for a bargain buy, from a seller who got it for nothing. The other problem is the boat was probably hard to sell in the hands of the PO, which is not a good sign, and may well apply to a lot of donated boats.
I`m none too keen on the buyer joining TF to publicise the issue either, and I don`t think it`s just to save others from a similar experience but that said, people join for many reasons.

BruceK you get it. Thats all I'm saying. When you say 1000 hr MAN service completed that carries alot of weight as these services if done correctly can run up quickly. Easily $20k, more if other problems are found. This service should ensure that the engines are performing correctly, and are matched to the props correctly and that you are reaching recomended speed and rpm levels without overheating.This eliminates a lot of unknowns for the potential buyer. I'm not sure who is at fault here, the dealer who did the service, the broker who listed the boat or the owner. It was obviously misrepresented, as the engines are not performing like they should if the complete 1000 hr service was done.

BandB the seller and the non profit are one and the same. The 1000 hr service was done by the seller(non profit). The groundings and damage occured while the seller (non profit) owned it. I'm not surprised to find things wrong on the survey, what I was surprised to find is that the engines failed to perform as they should if they had just been through a proper and complete 1000 hr MAN service as it was represented. The first listing even went on to say next service not due to 2000 hrs.

Mischief440 - below is from an old post discussing the search of boats from a distance, before I will travel even 30 miles I try and get each of these questions answered in sufficient detail to avoid wasting time and money....




I actually have an initial setof boat questions for when I call a boat for sale myself. YMMV but these haveworked well for me to sift out the ones I was more interested in pursuing...

- Are all those pictures ofyour boat?
- Are the machinery hours TT?
- Do you have a full list ofall items and options that convey with the boat?
- Are there maintenance recordsand are they up to date?
- Do you have a full history ofthe boat? Has it been damaged, partially submerged or seen heavy repairs?
- Can you send me 40-50 hi-resphotos of the boat including all of the machinery?
- What is your cruise and maxspeeds and at what rpm do you see those?
- What currently does not workon the boat?
- Where is the boat currentlyand in what condition is it stored?
- Do you own this boat or maybeis it under an LLC or partnership? Do you have 100% rights to sell the boatunencumbered?

mischief440 said:

BandB the seller and the non profit are one and the same. The 1000 hr service was done by the seller(non profit). The groundings and damage occured while the seller (non profit) owned it. I'm not surprised to find things wrong on the survey, what I was surprised to find is that the engines failed to perform as they should if they had just been through a proper and complete 1000 hr MAN service as it was represented. The first listing even went on to say next service not due to 2000 hrs.

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My first thought is that with the prop damage, I wouldn't be surprise if the engines are now over propped. That would limit the rpm even if the engines were running fine. The overheating is a different issue.

Not to tag on here, but TF is a community. Don't be surprised if you and your posts don't the respect you think they deserve after a single post. Simply put, you have absolutely no credibility. An initial post to complain is seriously suspect, particularly if if you just did the same on another forum.

I wish you luck on finding a boat and am sorry about this sale not going as you had hoped.

mischief440 said:

BandB the seller and the non profit are one and the same. The 1000 hr service was done by the seller(non profit). The groundings and damage occured while the seller (non profit) owned it. I'm not surprised to find things wrong on the survey, what I was surprised to find is that the engines failed to perform as they should if they had just been through a proper and complete 1000 hr MAN service as it was represented. The first listing even went on to say next service not due to 2000 hrs.

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AMI Kids doesn't own and operate boats to my knowledge. They simply receive donations and then sell them. Now, they may have done leases like this already on this boat and the one leasing run it aground. Saying 1000 hour MAN service has been done really means nothing in the long run. It's not like a certification that the engines are in good shape. Any engine problems would be addressed in addition to that, not as part of it. It is only routine maintenance. I'd suggest you look at this page.

MAN Maintenance Schedule for Marine Diesel Engines

And if you'd looked up their maintenance schedules you'd know that you don't skip from 1000 to 2000 hours as MAN's schedule is every 200 hours. As to RPM it's turning with all the prop damage and such, it could be very mis-propped. Or it could have serious issues. Did you have the engines surveyed separately? That's what might have given you an indication. Why are you still even talking about or interested in this boat? You knew this was a boat that had been wrecked twice...yes, run aground sounds less ominous I guess.

That was interesting, walk away, its no fun starting like this. By the way here is the listing , notice the service date November 1015? All work performed by authorized MAN dealer and completed in Nov. 1015.
https://www.boats.com/power-boats/2000-bayliner-5288-motoryacht-5614991/#.V4_NOI-cG00

Lease?

Side issue, it seems odd for the charitable donee/seller to retain ownership for an extended period after lease (?sale). Do they sell on their residual rights as owner to a financier, or do they really retain ownership? I`d have thought they`d be keen to get the boat off their books and get on with something else.

BruceK said:

Side issue, it seems odd for the charitable donee/seller to retain ownership for an extended period after lease (?sale). Do they sell on their residual rights as owner to a financier, or do they really retain ownership? I`d have thought they`d be keen to get the boat off their books and get on with something else.

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All sorts of games being paid. If the charity sold it for less than "market value" then the deduction allowable to the donee would be the sales price, not market value. So picture this. Mr. Sneaky gets an appraisal of the boat of $500k at the time he donates it. He gets a tax deduction of $500k. However, if charity were to turn right around and sell it for $200k, then his deduction would be reduced to $200k. That would cost Mr. Sneaky about $120k in taxes. I still think the lease is constructively a sale and the deduction very much in question.

There are other games they can play. Various types of trusts. There could be some money going back to Mr. Sneaky although that's more common on land.

Charities often set up schemes but that doesn't mean the IRS always goes along with them. People buy hundreds of dollars of raffle tickets and are told they are tax deductible. They aren't. One year the IRS even looked for all donations divisible by 11 made to a specific church. The raffle tickets were $11 each.

That's the problem with these kind of sales schemes. Boat owner dumps (donates) a flea infested dog that could never sell for anywhere close to the donation value. The charity means well and operates within the letter of the law but has no practical knowledge of the boat beyond what the previous owner provides on the donation form. Boat buyers looking to maximize their leverage are attracted to these kind of sales and luckily this one got a survey.

Losing $3,500 ain't the end of the world, in my mind it saved the OP hundreds of thousands buying this money pit.